So exasperated and tired from worrying about dad's lack of planning. How do I prepare myself for the inevitable financial mess?

If your father has no will, in what sense is your mother still named as a beneficiary on some things? Insurance policies, bank accounts, what? Do you actually have a reasonably comprehensive list of your father's assets?

If you have, perhaps there's something to be said for just letting it happen. Are you in California or am I reading too much into your screen name?! There are many websites explaining intestacy procedure, and at least one benefit of that is you just go with the flow. Are you expecting your sister to cut up rough?

It must really niggle at you though - what's he so afraid of? What is it that puts him off getting it done? Is he scared of tempting Fate or something?

I share your frustration, unfortunately I don't have any advice.
My father is the same, but he does not trust me at all and refuses to allow me to assist him with any financial tasks - I'm not even allowed to go in the bank with him when I drive him there.
His recently 'preparation' has been to remove me off my mother's bank account and to show her how to write a cheque. An 85 year old woman with dementia who has never written a cheque in her life.
The only wee thing that helped is that he mostly trusts my daughter and he sort of allows her to help him with financial things and she is now at least added onto their joint account (but he threatens to take her off sometimes too).
Is there a friend or family member you could recruit to encourage/help your father tackle the task of getting his finances in order?

This is a question I ask myself every day. (Thank you for the answers.)
In my case it's my husband, who procrastinates, or avoids any attention to his estate. We have 2 wills, as the finance manager for my MIL's estate objected to my lawyer DIL having drawn up the first wills. We once had a fortune, which is gone. We live hand to mouth now. But my husband handles all the money. I get to buy the food, and spend anything on the dog, but other than that, I am to "Be careful", implying we are at zero balance. Last year we ended up with a credit counseling agency when I learned we had 2 liens on our house, and we were overdrawn at the bank, with nothing coming in for 2 weeks. Cars were needing gas. Multiply bills due. Etc.
He promised then he would be mindful of his spending, and always inform me, keeping me up to date on our financial state. He took a job and works at least 2 days, more often 3, every week. This helps some. But he refuses to update the wills, tell me where the life insurance information is, how much income tax we owe, etc. He has some signs of early dementia, so I am very concerned.
How will I fare if he does die before I do? Will the second will over ride the first? In the second will, a big sum is left to his only child, who he only learned of when he was 50 yrs old, and the son 30. They have a very tenuous relationship, and presently, there is nothing to leave the son, except the house we are living in.
My husband will not answer or respond to my asking him what he would like me to do with the material he has accumulated for a book he's writing, (but has stopped now for almost a year).
Help. !! Thank you, everyone on this website/blog.

Thank, countrymouse - Yes, my mother is named on an insurance policy or two, and a substantial bank account. While he was in a rehab facility last year and we cleaned his apartment and cared for his cat, we also took stock of his files. All paper files, nothing electronic. Some statements were scattered about the house with random mail piles, so we gathered them to get them into the matching folders. We were told to back off of his files, so they are still in a heap in his living room. He even griped at me one day about the pile we left!!! And we had left it right there because he told us to!
Yes, I'm in California. I attempted to go back and edit my post to say this, but I guess I didn't "save" properly or something!
I expect nothing problematic from my sister. She's happy to have left me in charge, as she is in delicate physical and emotional health and really cannot handle decision making or anything. It's just that she needs some cash for survival, so I don't want her to have to wait 2 years or however long probate takes.
I don't know what he's afraid of!! He's been a terrible procrastinator as long as I can remember. I forced myself to gently bring up the issue of wills and beneficiaries, and he seemed to welcome that discussion, but now NOTHING.
And now a new thing: He welcomed our offer to "help him" clean out storage units at his apartment building, but now that we are hauling things out to show him what there is, guess what..... NO. No. No. So I guess we're putting most of it back.
Thanks so much for answering!

Calgirl, some people are just really good at finances even up into their later years, but they had been that way all of their adult life. Others, just wing it, and hope for the best.

Elders can be stubborn, too. They want to cling on every bit of independence they can, thus will refuse others to help.

As for your Dad's finances, chances are most of what he had saved will go for around the clock care. And that can empty out a savings account rather quickly.

Your Dad probably doesn't realize that his estate may go into Probate Court if he has no Will, and depending on the net worth of his estate. The Probate Judge will decide who gets what. If there is you and one sister, then the Judge could split the estate in half.

If later down the road your Dad needs a village to help take care of him [nursing home and Medicaid help], the money he has been giving to your sister will complicate matters. I realize we never think about this or even know about this when giving money to grown children.

Another thing that happens, and my parents did that to me, our elder parents forget that we are grown adults, maybe even seniors ourselves, and what do we know as the parent still view us a kid :P

Didn't read all the posts so sorry if I am repeating.

Tell Dad if he doesn't set up a Will and change his beneficiaries, the state will get involved with who inherits and the state may take their share. I may not be completely right but it may work.

With u on the accounts you get the money when he passes. He really needs to get Mom off his insurances. It may take a court to determine who is next of kin for insurance. It did with my nephew when my sister never picked a beneficiary. A Will will make his estate go more smoothly. Otherwise, the state gets involved.

Well. There is a mental block. You can spend many an entertaining hour trying to figure out what it is, but meanwhile you just have to accept that there is one and it's making him baulk.

But he is content to be your sister's financial mainstay, yes? I expect he and you are both sorry that your sister needs this help, as in sorry that she's not in better shape and able to do without it; but he doesn't resent subbing her and you've no objection either?

So maybe that's the thread to pull on - telling him that you're worried that if he doesn't make specific provision for his daughter, that daughter is going to be in hot water for between six months and two years because nobody will be able to advance her any cash; and even if he can't face the rest of it could he please deal with that?

Wills do not have to be big complicated scary pieces of paper. Dang, Aretha Franklin left hers in her couch on scrap paper and they are considered legal and binding...Try this: Type out a form saying it is his will, say what he wants and ask him to sign it. I know he didn't do it with the beneficiary, but maybe he will with this. Do you have his DPOA? If so you try to do it, you are not trying to take his money, you are just trying to help him. Try explaining again that your sister will be in a lot of financial trouble if he doesn't do this. Another thing, if he will not sign, ask him if he will let you video tape him with your phone saying what he wants done with his money. At least it is better than nothing. The bright side is it sounds as if it is just you and your sister so worst case, if he does nothing, is eventually it would get split 50/50 and you could always give your half to your sister if you wanted to do so.

You have to set up a plan like I did over 24 months it takes a while usually by the time you become involved they have accrued a huge mess.

You should let him do what he wants when he wants.

He needs to make the legal appointments and all his own decisions. He needs to get himself to the appointments.

Any will could be easily overturned if you are Involved in any way.

Take this seriously. It is better to get nothing than to be in a position where you are defending yourself in court.

Legal battles could easily cost you more than his assets and the insurance money put together.

Two possible options. One is to make an appointment with an attorney for a consult, and since you drive him to all his appointments tell him you have one and want him to go with you and out to lunch. You can pretend it’s for you to make a will. While there you get the conversation to where the attorney gives the spiel about dying without a will or proper beneficiaries. And fingers crossed he just might agree to having a simple will done.
or you go alone and get the lawyer to record him or herself into the voice recorder on your phone to explain what dying without a will does. Then play it for your father. He will have to name an executor on his will if he does have one drawn up...make sure you really want to be the one before you say yes. Or you can let the court appoint one.
Does your dad even say he is willing to do a will but just won't move off the dime, or does he not want to do one?

You have to get stern with him or you’re going to have a big mess with having to hire a lawyer which cost a lot and going to court. Just tell him you won’t help him anymore if he doesn’t get his paperwork done. Also, are you financially well off that you don’t need any of the money? I hope you’re able to sign his checks because if he passes away and you’re not on there, you won’t be able to use it for the burial.

We had a similar issue with my in laws. So we got together with our own attorney and asked him what our options are and how we could proceed to get all their affairs in order. He ended up writing a will for them which we took to them, they read over and they did sign it. Actually, it seemed like they were a bit relieved that it was done for them. They had had a will it was very outdated as my BIL had been killed a few years earlier. Our attorney also wrote new POA's, taking my BIL out of the POA and putting my step daughter in. A good attorney will be able to advise you on how best to proceed. As my MIL ages (FIL died in December) we continue to consult our attorney on how to legally protect her and keep her safe in all ways. It may help you also to consult an attorney... preferably your own who already knows you and your own situation.

Going through it Right now as I write This and I am Too Pissed...My Blister Sister who Lives closer is Dad's POA but he Refuses to Put anyone in this Will (Living Will) To get anything or Take charge of his Finances and the State will get it all during a PROBATE after he is gone. That stinks. He this Poor Man's Will.
You cannot do anything, Sweetie, Sorry to say. Be this POA, Do what you can to Help, Knowing when the Smoke clears One day, You were the Angel with Wings and Things...

Anything he has that doesn't have a beneficiary will be part of his estate. When he dies you can petition to be his personal representative and handle the estate through probate. Easier way is to go online and make up a will, you do not have to be a lawyer to do this. He sounds like on of those that thinks if he has a will, he will die, men are known for this thinking.

Calgirl, this may not be the nightmare it seems. When you father (a widow) dies, under CA law the children will share equally in all assets that do not have named beneficiaries. If your mother's name is still on some policies or accounts, all you need to do is have copies of her death certificate available. You and your sister will share equally in anything that your mother would have received. Anything with a named beneficiary is simple, you just give the B. a copy of the death certificate. Often the estate pays these taxes from the assets, so the beneficiary won't have to, as well as the usual estate taxes. It is simply not true that when a person dies the state gets everything. ONLY in the case that no immediate or distant family members can be found, will this happen.

You will need to file an application with your father's county probate court, requesting to be appointed administrator of your father's estate (and your sister may need to submit a sworn statement saying she is not opposed). If your father's assets will be complicated in terms of taxes or investments or trusts, you may need an estate lawyer, but very often you can handle this yourself if you're willing to invest the time. (Probate court staff are usually very helpful, too.) Try to relax about all this. Unless your father has unknown children out there, this might be much more straightford than you now think. Good luck (when the time comes--we're not trying to rush things!)

While this is not a miracle in a book, I suggest that you read Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. I have read comments from people who felt that it really did not help them with their particular problem/LO, but it is not a "cookbook". 'What it did for me is to get me to a place where I could ask questions of my FIL to try to understand his thinking. He was 93 at the time and lived in own house with MIL. She has moderate ALZ dementia, and he had early vascular dementia. He was still driving, refused home help and would not move. I was awake almost every night worrying about the upcoming disaster which I knew was coming.

I asked variations of the "5 questions" to ask him what he wanted, what he was thinking about and what it would take for him to decide to move. I had this discussion when I was not aggravated by something he was not doing to suit me so that I could be patient and listen to his answers instead of telling him what to do. In our case, he knew he needed to move but he could not figure out how to start the process; he did not know how to do the first step and the idea of any of it was so overwhelming that he just refused to change anything. I think I was partly lucky, and partly just got him at the right moment. But also I think this book got me in the right frame of mind to talk to him and take a different approach by asking him about how he saw the future while did lead to a breakthrough,
The story of elderly people who refuse care, refuse to cooperate with efforts to assist them, refuse to allow family to assist with finances but cannot manage themselves is common everywhere there are elderly people. I think that they are afraid that if they give up one thing, it will start a slippery slope to loss of complete control and it often does because once they give up something, people find out what a mess it all truly is. But we don't really ask them what they want, and how the future might look to them. Sadly we cannot cheat death by procrastination and delaying these decisions increase the likelihood of that death being more terrible than necessary as well as leaving a mess for the survivors. So if what we are doing with them is not working, a different approach is worth a try.

Here are the questions.

Atul Gawande’s 5 Questions to Ask at Life’s End – Next Avenue

"We need to know: 1. What is your understanding of where you are and of your illness? 2. Your fears or worries for the future 3. Your goals and priorities 4. What outcomes are unacceptable to you? What are you willing to sacrifice and not? And later, 5. What would a good day look like? Asking these allows everybody to understand what the goal really is — what are you really fighting for? It’s for a life that contains certain things."

Gather as much info as you can about dad's finances, including beneficiary info on his insurance, investments, etc. then make an appointment with a lawyer for yourself to find out as much as you can about how Federal and State laws work with regard to someone who dies intestate. If there is no will then there will be an order of inheritance... your sister might not get as much as dad wants, however, because it will probably be divided equally among his children. Every state is different, though, so best to get an expert.

One way is to tell him if he dies without doing the proper paperwork then the government will take a percentage so if he does nothing then he pays them more - that usually work if nothing else as nobody wants to pay extra  taxes!

If he is helping your sister, can she manage a large inheritance or will she blow through it and then be looking to you for money?

This might be the button to push. Dad, sissy needs you to be responsible and set up a trust or will that only pays her xx amount monthly. I won't be able to help her financially and I know you don't want to see her ?be homeless? not eating? No meds? Whatever pushes him?, so let's do this.

Most important is to remain buddies. If there are assets, it will be a big mess if there is no will, prepare yourself. The government may get involved, and not to his benefit. And do you also have POA for medical issues in addition to financial issues? Try to get him to an attorney who will get him to write a will and take care of the beneficiaries on the accounts. I also switched all of my mother's accounts to joint accounts with my name on them. This also makes things much easier later. Not all parents will agree to this.

You know what finally worked with my MIL, who refused to make any kind of EOL plans?

She was talking about how she'd just pass and she trusted her 3 kids to calmly disperse of her worldy goods, She just didn't want a fuss.

Teeth grinding--because that's NOT what would happen.

Finally, I flat out told her that the STATE would step in, appoint an attorney to go through ALL HER THINGS (yes, including her underwear drawer) and would assess the values of things and AFTER he'd given the state their chunk--only then would the family receive anything. (Yes, I know that's not the exact way it would go, but it would be a nightmare).

Being a DIL and not in a position to receive anything (she has made it known that I am not to be able to 'benefit' in any way from her demise--why would I even care?

She spent an hour with an attorney and was told pretty much exactly what I told her. She now has a will--but this could easily have gone the other way.

DH is her executor and he is livid. Doesn't even speak to her, but, dang it, he's gonna be in it up to his armpits.

She was angry, b/c it did cost her like $2K to have the will drawn up, but it's better knowing a stranger won't be pawing through her 'delicates'.

Check with atty in your state. As POA, you may be able to add your name to the accounts to make it joint account. You may not even need a will if you can just set the accts to pass to you/your sister at time of death. There would be nothing left to probate.

I have many questions. Are you the POA for health or for health and financial? Is your father diagnosed with or suffering from any dementia? Are there other siblings? If you are POA for financial then you should have access to accounts if you can find out where they are, and you should be able to add beneficiaries on them. If you inherit, which you will after probate if there are NO other relatives, then you cannot gift to the aunt without incurring tax problems, but you could, say, pay for the aunt's care should she enter care, and if you would then be responsible for say some percentage of her expenses she would become a tax write off. The thing here is that if you have financial POA you can use it to act in behalf of your father to gather information, and one place to start would be an hour of time with an elder care attorney, which done in his behalf can come from his account; I would ask him if he would like to attend the conference with you. It sounds to me as though your father is failing. Should he need to move out of his home you should take your FINANCIAL POA to the post office and have his mail forwarded to you. This will give you at least the places where money is secreted away, if not who the beneficiary is. I am afraid you have a bit of sleuthing in your future. The one thing you cannot do is act in your father's stead or for your father without his agreement IF HE IS OF SOUND MIND, and that is the thing that is a question here. He is not behaving as though he does. See an elder care attorney. The other option is to go to court to have a court appointed guardian place on your father's finances if they are substantial. Then back away from it all altogether since you are not being allowed to act. This will cost your father money, but in the long run it may ultimately be necessary anyway. You can ask to be appointed as his only living relative, which would entail examination with doctors, or you could ask the court to appoint someone (who would as his Fiduciary be paid) to act in your father's behalf. I just cannot tell from your post the current condition of your Dad, or whether you are dealing with dementia or not. If he is demented it may be too late for a will, and only able to get guardianship. As the only living relative, after all is probated, you do inherit.

Remember depending upon state laws his "estate" might not need to be entered into probate. His life is more important than your unknown "inheritance."

Your dad's quality of life is the most important. From your post, its written as if dad must be removed from all decision making. If he truly has funds somewhere, all of those funds will be used to pay back Medicaid or Medicare when he dies. It's called Estate-Recovery. He needs care, he no longer has the capacity to care for himself, so it's time for dad to hire home services, or to be admitted into a nursing home. You cannot wait otherwise he will die in squalor. You are no longer his "buddy" he is a liability to himself, and is a hazard to his health, minimally, that landlord will evict him if he continues to live in squalor. If your sister is disabled a special needs trust needs to be set-up, with that trust being the beneficiary. That generation tends to exaggerate their finances, if he owns zero real estate, then he has zero house in which to reside, without eviction possibilities, "renovations" are the most popular back-door eviction excuse to get rid of shitty tenants. Having your father live with you is always an option, whilst having home health care services take care of him.

I would start by capturing his mail and seeing just what he has. Make an appt with an attorney and since you drive him everywhere just take him. Let the attorney tell him how much trouble you would run into getting things taken care of if he dies without a will. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate.
Go through things at his home and search for documents that may need beneficiaries. It will be a nightmare if everything has to go to probate. Ask him does he want the court system to get part of what he saved for years when he can do something so easy to take care of that. Start now!

Calgirl - and everyone else here—

This post and many of the answers are completely disturbing and shocking.

Please see a lawyer and do not rely upon the laymans’ “legal” advice on this thread. You could wind up with criminal and civil liability.

If you get bad advice from a lawyer that is one thing, but it is no defense to say a bunch of strangers on a thread suggested you do something illegal and you took their advice.

No amount of money or stuff is worth going to jail.

Two words - Financial Advisor.

Attorney. Not so cheap. But may be worth it.