Should I confront my dad about his "hidden" plans to move in with my alcoholic brother?

There was recently a poster here who's dad left AL, attempted to live on his own. Her dad crashed and burned, as it were.

When the call came from the hospital, the daughter told the social worker she could no longer provide care, as dad refused to cooperate. The state took guardianship and her dad is now doing well in Assisted Living. She gets to be the daughter again. Win/win.

I think, as his future POA, you need to contact your brother by phone and confirm that father is moving in with him. Once he confirms this, send an email (or registered mail) to your brother stating your father's health issues and any meds required to take regularly. You need a paper-trail to confirm that you did alert brother of your father's condition. As long as your father is still competent, he can do whatever he wants. So, once you Hear your brother confirm that father is moving in with him, you can step back and watch the chips fall.

You have handled this just right. Well done. Your approach is ethically spot-on.

Not to be a Debbie-downer, but all you have left to think about is what you will do when he is next scraped off the floor in his splendid self-contained apartment. Anybody human would be thinking "don't come running to me..." but then again when push comes to shove it's not so easy to keep to that. Start thinking now about where you might find care managers or providers who can take the job over; otherwise it will be difficult not to get sucked back in and given the whole thankless kicking around all over again.

Just remember, HIS choice, HIS consequence. This is your signal to step away and not rescue any longer.

Hello all, today was the big day of talking to dad and drs. Well, turns out he has been going online looking at housing where he wants to move, care givers informed me of this. So i just said "well dad, it sounds like you are planning on leaving us?" Kaboom, I never said that, I don't know wht anyone would say that and on and on. So I named each person and told him what was said, he kept denying until I said, you know we signed a contract saying you would provide 30 days notice to AL, so you need to put things in place and line things up so you don't end up paying a months rent unnecessarily, at that point he fessed up that he was planning to move, he let me know in no uncertain terms that he was going to do what he wanted, period. He was not staying at the AL, he does not need care and his choices are his to make and everyone (me) needed to get off his back. I talked about things with his Dr with him present and he believes his pace maker and valve are the only thing he needs meds for and the CHF, kidney disease, diabetes, neuropathy, blindness are non issues and nothing could sway him. So, he is only awaiting the funds and he has someone waiting to come get him. I feel like he knows the consequences of this choice and he would rather die doing it his way than live where he is.
Thank you all for all of the help, it was put to good use today trying to get him to make a good choice. I believe that good care, proper nutrition, proper meds have caused improvements in his condition and that is why he is being special sporty, as I like to put the stubborn, willful, my way or the highway narcissistic behavior. Hugs to all of you, now I get to wait and see what The Lord has in store for the situation. 

I think you are right about your dad not being able to see the consequences if his actions. For someone with his experience of and attitude towards alcohol, it sounds like a disaster in the making. I think it would be good to alert his drs that he is thinking of this. No doubt alcoholic bro has painted a very pretty picture of the life they would have together. I doubt that the reality would be good at all. Mother has made very good choices for years in terms of her own care and circumstances. It was when she tried to make this one move, spurred on by my sis and her eyes on the $$$s that red flags went up for me. She would have moved from a high quality care situation to a lower quality care situation, and she was declining and would be needed more care. in the not too distant future.
To get guardianship, I believe you need the signatures of two doctors that your dad is incompetent and incapable of make good decisions for himself. You might want to check that out for the state you live in, and seek legal advice about it.
Good idea to ask the cardiologist about transferring records.

Keep us updated! (((((((hugs))))) Siblings working at cross purposes and with different agendas is hard to deal with.

Golden23, I did not answer part of your question, ...does your dad want to drink? No, he is very opposed to alcohol, he was raised by an alcoholic and actually talks about my brothers drinking being a huge issue, that's why they scrap every time, but one, that they talk. I do not believe that my dad has the ability to see consequences of actions😐.

Countrymouse, I would not touch that bet with someone else's money😁, I believe you are right about the denial. I have lunch scheduled tomorrow before a visit with his cardiologist,  I was thinking it might be a good idea to ask the Dr. how we get his records transferred and see if that puts any light on his plans. I think he is trying to plan a move as he keeps asking about money and bills that are being paid off. (Really dad, you all are good and don't need any help but, this is the 15th time you've asked me that🤤.

Thank you all for the prayers, I can feel them. Much needed hugs!

Well. Don't rush ahead and do this if it doesn't seem the right moment, but maybe it IS time you sat down with Dad, smiled sweetly, and began the conversation that goes: "a little bird tells me that you're looking forward to moving this year, is that right?"

I will put a modest sum of money on it that his response will be a blustering denial that any such thought ever crossed his mind, your honour, true as he's born, he can't think what started that rumour..! But if you can open up the discussion noncommittally, to range across all of his hopes and wants and wishes for his future care, you might get some useful pointers about what sort of tweaks and changes would be helpful in keeping him settled and - I know this is the unicorn we're all chasing, but - happy.

Juarez, he was completely incoherent when admitted to the hospital, after he was treated, mostly his kidneys and flushing the toxins that were making him so incoherent, per doctors, he was capable of understanding what he was signing, thereby making it legal to have them signed. Hope this clears that up. If you do not have a diagnosis, can you be declared guardian? I know that I have to do everything in my power to keep him safe but in Az I can not stop him from making choices, especially when he is a real "showtimer", even his caregivers think he is more there than he is, which is lack of experience on their part, young people, which is a plus in many ways except experience.

"hospital said he could sign them legally . . . "

If his dementia is bad enough that he cannot sign legally for himself, then he can't make a decision to move out of assisted living. Call Adult Protective Services or contact an attorney about getting guardianship over him. If you allow this bad plan to happen, it will come back to bite you at some point.

Thank you for all the information, I would be bald if not for all of the helpful info on this site.

My Aunt is the 4th, including his caregivers, that have told me he is planning to move. When she told me I knew that it could be more than talk.
My husband and I had already decided that if he tries to move, he will have to figure it out, we can not help him kill himself. As far as my brother knowing, no way to find out, truth and honesty are not part of his interactions. Money being a motive, definitely yes. I have a DPOA, DMPOA and a DMHMPOA (durable mental health medical POA) I put these in place as soon as the hospital said he could sign them legally. I had nothing in place when he 1st came and ended up in the hospital for 9 days, it was a fight I would never go through again if a signed paper could avoid it. I thought that I would get thrown in jail a couple of times, he was out of his head sick and I was his advocate. Hospitalist? Dr. Put a DNR on his chart. Anyway, I am going to play the watch, listen and see for now. I will keep you all posted and any further advise is welcome.😊

I would verify the information, discreetly. I'm not doubting your aunt, but so much depends on what exactly your father said to her, and the background to it, not to mention whether your brother is even aware that this is an idea let alone a plan...

I doubt if it's a plan. Do you really think it's got as far as being a plan? Sounds more like castles in the air to me.

Mind you - you can dream, too!!!

Since your dad has dementia, I would also wonder if it's 'just talk' on his part. He could be somewhat delusional or expressing a desire to move without any real planning or action towards making it happen. I think the other suggestions are good ones - get the facility involved and lock down your dad's options if possible to protect him from your brother.

Isthisrealyreal - Hi I can relate. I am sorry you have to deal with this. My mother's situation was not quite as drastic as yours, but still she was in a facility which looked after her well, and she wanted to move to another facility which would not have looked after her as well. My sister was involved and supporting her in this move, which would have been to a less expensive ALF and I believe that was my sis's motive - saving money for her inheritance. Could this be a motive for your brother? Is your dad wanting to drink?

Although I had POA, I could not stop mother as she was "competent", though starting to make bad decisions due to the onset of vascular dementia (as ascertained later). However, I did not have to help her either. and my sister had no intention of doing the work of the move - she expected me to do it. I let both of them know that I would not help with this move. My mother knew that without my help she could not move. It was a very tense time. Eventually mother got psychiatric help, was medicated, and things have gone more smoothly since. I guess my point is that I didn't stop mother, but I did not facilitate her move either. Can your dad and your bro together arrange this move without your help?

You mention that your dad is in the early stages of dementia. Has he had a thorough geripsych evaluation? There may be meds which could help him settle down.

I would also discuss it with the staff at the ALF. For me, they were very helpful in working towards an assessment of incompetence, so that I could prevent the move. They knew it would not have been good for mother. I would also notify his physician, as a move like that would not be "safe" in my opinion. You could ask your local Agency for Aging for ideas too.

Whether or not to confront him, I am not sure that is a good idea at present. Maybe talk to the various resource people first and see what happens.

Keep in touch. These situations are so stressful. (((((hugs)))))

Talk to a lawyer specializing in elder care, preferable one whose entire practice is
dedicated to that one area of law. It might be expensive, but it will save you far more
down the road. If he has dementia you could petition to become his guardian or
have one appointed. It sounds like it would definitely not be in his best interests to
move in with your brother. Good luck!!!