Can a financial institution require that my mother be present to validate the POA that she already signed?

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Can a financial institution require that my mother be present to validate the POA that she already signed?

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I went to one of my mother’s financial institutions to set up the POA with them and had a very strange experience. First the banker asked if she were deceased and I said no, you cannot use a POA if the person is deceased. She then said that my mother needed to be present. I said, no, the purpose of the POA was that she could no longer transact business on her own behalf and requiring her to be there would defeat the purpose. (The POA had been signed by both of us and notarized, and I had also presented the physician’s letter stating that the POA was necessary.) She insisted, and I said, fine, my mother will not know why she is here or understand what you are asking her or be able to respond coherently, and will likely be agitated and combative to the point of violence, but if that’s what you want to see, I can bring her. She stared at me for a few moments, then backed off of that “requirement," then refused my paperwork on the grounds that it was a copy and not the original. Now I already think something funny was going on because this was a senior banker at a very prestigious national trust institution, who should be well aware that POAs are not for dead people, and that they indicate that the person is incapacitated. But is that something that anyone else has ever heard of?

Elder Law Forms & Documents Power of Attorney (POA)

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No, your mother does not have to be there. In fact, were she able to do her own banking work you likely wouldn't have to be serving as POA.
Yes, you must ABSOLUTELY have the originals with you. And never leave them out of your sight (for instance on a plane do not check them through).
A copy is NOT sufficient. Do also know that if this account is held in several names and if this is a trust account the POA will not be sufficient. When they question your POA be certain that you acknowledge that they are attempting to protect your Mother against nefarious actors. When I got POA and Trustee of Trust for my brother I was VERY scrutinized. They were acting in his interest. I am hoping you had this done with a Lawyer and all original papers are in order. Be certain to set up an appointment with the bank officer, not a regular teller.

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Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my question. The original papers are not something I got off a website; they were prepared and executed by a lawyer, who holds the originals. I have no problem producing them if it is necessary, (no other entity I have done this with asked for them; they accepted copies or an email of the originals), I just came to doubt that after the conversation began on an adversarial tone. Also, I am not clear why you thought this was a teller; this was one of two senior bankers who were both present (I had made an appointment with the other one, who remained with her back to me, checking her email, while this was happening.)
I also never said anything about the account being held in trust or being held in several names. It is her name only with a TOD designated—which is me, alone. I understand and appreciate the extra scrutiny—as I said above in a further answer, I underwent that with every other entity I have dealt with, just no one else seemed to assume the worst and look for a way to deny it.

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Actually it’s not at all uncommon for banks and financial institutions to refuse to accept a POA. And a POA isn’t just for someone who is incapacitated and unable to handle their finances. Unless springing, a POA goes in to affect the moment it is signed and can be used when the person is still completely competent. I wouldn’t be alarmed by the banker asking if your mother is dead either. It’s a valid question. Sounds like she wanted to make sure your mother was still living.

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That really wasn’t her tone when she asked me if she were deceased. It was more suspicious and accusatory. I should have mentioned in my question that I had already been through this with her main bank, her healthcare providers, utilities, insurance companies, credit cards, the DMV and pension and no one responded like this. Most had additional forms for me to complete or additional steps to take, but no one opened up the discussion by asking me outright if she had died, or demanding that she come and, I don’t know, prove her incapacity. If anything the forms included a certification that she was still alive, and that was never the first words out of their mouths.
What does one do when the bank refuses? Just not take care of the person’s business at their whim?

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The financial advisor knew who I was, we had met several times when I took my mom to the bank .. I took my mom to the bank with the POA papers and we had to do their paperwork with a Notary...

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You need the original not a copy to transact business with a bank, or any financial institution. As for the other part, some bankers do not really understand legal documentation and have been groomed to be over cautious.

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Yes, this is what I did. I gave them the original and the bank manager uploaded it so that they have it on file

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Mum had a similar situation when stepdad was in the hospital, one bank was reasonable, the other acted like yours Doggomom.

Luckily the Lawyer who prepared the documents and had given Mum notarized copies, which are just as valid as the original, was also a friend of step dad. He called the bank in question and read them the riot act. Told them in no uncertain terms that they were violating the law and unless Mum received an apology for their rudeness and the additional stress they put her under while her husband was dying, he would be reporting the bank and the individual employees to the banking regulator.

After that call, Mum received proper services from the bank. It should not have taken a call from a lawyer for the bank to behave.

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Yes! The documents I have are notarized, and I hope not to get the lawyer involved-because you’re right, it shouldn’t come to that-but I will if I need to. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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Was it Wells Fargo? It has been discussed on this forum that this is what they do.

If what you showed the bank officer was not a Xerox copy, then you have a legal copy. The lawyer has his copy and you should have a "legal" copy. I had mine shrunk so I could copy it on my printer. Then I gave the institution the copy but I had the original (on that 14 in paper) available. I am from a small town so I never had a problem with our bank. I did have problems with Moms shares. Needed a Medallion to prove that I was Moms representative.

Seems like u had everything you needed but got a jerk. Maybe call and talk to someone above this officer. May have to contact the main office. Maybe, a letter from her doctor saying Mom is not capable of leaving her home/facility?

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I have a letter from the doctor and I presented that to her too, and she still said my mom needed to come in. Somehow that requirement dropped off when I described my mom’s behavior, but I was wondering if that is a legitimate requirement or, like you said, I just got a jerk who was making it up as she went along.
Also what you described sounds like the same documents I presented. Thanks for the thorough answer. The bank has a customer service phone number and email and I plan to try those after the holidays.
This was Northern Trust, not Wells Fargo. This is what confused me, because I have always thought of it as a prestigious financial institution, not even just a bank, therefore someone with the title “senior banker” would know how to handle a POA very easily.

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We had some similar experiences with banks. Some are very good with dealing with these issues and abiding by the documents presented. Others make it difficult for you. One bank used by the deceased insisted that we give them the "original" copy of the deceased's trust. Since there is only one "original" with all the "original" signatures, to leave that document with one bank, not requested by any other, is stupid. Spouse/trustee finally moved all accounts to financial institutions that were more knowledgeable about trust and legal document requirements. Some of these clerks and "bankers" are just improvising, they have no real knowledge of what's required. On the other hand, some financial institutions require signature guarantees for everything, and others don't insist on that either. I think the offending institutions are just trying to make it hard to take money from them.

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BBS is correct; some banks, and even some branches, aren't familiar enough with estate planning documents to know how to handle them.

I do think though that a copy might not be adequate; the firm which I worked for and provided my sister and father's estate plans made "conformed copies". The original was either kept in their safe, or given to the family, but 2 - 3 or more "conformed copies" were also made for delivery to institutions if necessary.

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Bank of America did this to me. Insisted my father be present. I told them that was not possible which is why I was poa. Nope to them the rules are the rules. I had to do a three way phone call with the bank and my father to have him give his permission. He had to answer questions to prove it was him. He was at the point he could no longer answer the type of questions they asked. If it wasn’t so tragic it would have been comical

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How did you do it? My mom speaks in an incomprehensible word salad and is incapable of answering questions too.

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What are you doing that you need to go into a branch in person? There's very little, if anything, you can't get done online these days.

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I can think of several things.

One if the parent did not already have online banking set up.

Two, some banks will allow a POA to sign cheques as POA, do banking in the branch, but not give access to online banking

Three, if cheques are going to be signed as POA, the Bank needs a copy on file.

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I can't remember the details now, but Citibank initially gave us a hard time when I came in with the POA all ready to get set up to write checks on dad's checking account so I could pay bills, purchase the wheelchair van he would be needing upon being discharged from spinal cord injury rehab, other transactions my dad might want done, etc. I think I called to talk to a banker at dad's branch first, and was told no, you need this and that and our own form notarized, blah blah blah. Then my sister went and spoke to this particular banker and apparently calmly but firmly read him the riot act, threatened to close her own account there, etc.

As I said I can't remember how it got sorted out (I think we did have to go through one extra hoop) but that banker always seemed a little scared of me on subsequent visits!

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I had a similar experience with a credit union but was able to gain the officer's sympathy -said mom was in rehab with a broken back and couldn't be transported

fact is, banks are subject to intense regulation and any thing sniffing of financial elder abuse is going to raise a flag - most folks working in a branch just don't have the background or authority to break the rules especially when it comes to Know Your Customer compliance

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Excellent reply.

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I asked my local banker (B of A) about a financial POA that they would recognize. I was told that this MUST be a POA that they set up, forms, notarization, etc. principal must be present, - basically it was their POA form, NOT a ordinary financial POA. She explained that the bank will honor their POA and no other (besides a court ordered transaction) because "how can we know that that POA has not been superseded and is now invalid? We honor our POA and thus we are protected from liability." They want, and you should want, that protection. Have you talked to mom's lawyer? Perhaps there is some way to handle this, since it would seem that your mom is no longer able to give POA.
In my case, the financial POA in question was one I wished to give my sister, in case I should be incapacitated in the future. I'm sure the bank has had to deal with this many times and you might ask a senior officer how this could be handled for everyone's safety.

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I did get the poa from boa and they still insisted every time I called them to have my father with me to verify. I understand they need to protect the elder but once you establish yourself as poa there shouldn’t be an issue

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I have run into issues a couple of times with different transactions. In the case of my parents bank I called the attorneys office that handled the POA and they firmly explained what a POA was.

one issue I have had is that the attorney signed the POA therefore there is no stamp. It throws people off on occasion.

sometimes people want to keep the original, they don’t seem to understand that I need that and can never let it out of my possession. I finally went to the UPS store and had several copies made and had them motorized the copies after looking at the original copies.

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Im pretty sure Chase bank has my picture in all their back rooms with a big red slash through it. I cannot begin to explain my hatred for this bank. Everytime they tell me I need somthing different and I bring the original they change the story. And yes I have dealt with managers. This has gone on for a year. My trust attorney has now created a 26 page form. There is nothing else they can ask me for. We paid a notary to come to my moms and witness/notarize her signature. I called to find out who I could make an appointment with that had the ability to handle this situation. They said oh you need to bring her in. I said fine she will most likely crap her pants while she is in your office. Or fall and I will sue you. All I need is to transfer money from one of her annuities to her checking so I can continue to pay her caregivers. I'm taking a break for several weeks. The emotional toll this is taking is so completely overwhelming.
I feel your pain. I understand the bank looking out for there customers. The banking industry is not how it used to be. You had the same banker for many years. They recognized you. Now its 20 yr olds who only work 30 hours so the bank doesn't have to give them benefits.
Boy this post really hit a nerve!
Did I mention I hate Chase bank?

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This sounds like my experience with Chase Bank. Wells Fargo Bank and Bank of America handled this exact situation with ease and with compassion. After four years, I am still working with Chase Bank to release money in a retail account. In my situation, I started asking for copies and examples of “exactly” what would be acceptable to Chase or whichever bank you are working with and that should cut down on a lot of wasted time.

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My husband is deaf without his hearing aide. Not much better when he wears it. I do all his phone stuff. Occasionally I have a company we have not sent a letter to with him saying I can talk for him. When this person asks to speak to him I tell them he won't understand any questions. He will just verify its him. Every time I hear the person starting to ask them questions.

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There has been a lot of fraud lately, so the banker is more wary. Yes, you need to present the original for them to view. Only give them a copy or let them make their own copy of the POA. Most financial institutions require a financial POA and not a general POA.

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This must be a common problem. My MIL is in hospice. Mum had a POA set up by a military lawyer in 2008. She kept the papers in her bank vault with my husband having access to it. It wasn’t until a few months ago that mum was no longer able to sign checks or need caregivers. When we retrieved the papers to takeover making sure her bills get paid and pay for her caregivers. B of A said her signature had changed since 2016 and they could not give us the POA until she came in to sign a new signature card. At the time she was in the hospital and then she came home with us and was placed on hospice shortly after. I don’t know how to make it legal. I have talked to the hospice social worker and haven’t heard anything back. So far I am paying caregivers by getting money from her ATM and doing what I can online.
Ps. I had access to her online account for years. I always helped mum with her finances after dad died. She made the decisions and I did the online stuff to make it easier for her.

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I guess I would schedule an appointment with this rude female and make sure that she is the person that you will be meeting with and then let mom make a mess out of her office. It would be fitting that her office smelled like her attitude.

There is not a lot of professionalism left in this world and the consumer gets to pay the price. I agree that they should protect the money that has been trusted to them, but they need to be polite and professional when explaining what their protocols are.

My dads bank sent the POA to their legal department and they confirmed with in 5 minutes that it met their requirements. Common sense approach. When in doubt, ask!

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This made me laugh a bit. Mom can get violent when agitated and likes to pull hair. I actually did think of how she’d grab a handful of this woman’s long highlighted hair and yank for all she was worth, hollering unintelligibly the whole time, Maybe then she’d be convinced that she could no longer handle her affairs.

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I had difficulty with Mom's life insurance company when I needed to change the bank for automatic PAYMENT of her premium. Fortunately, she can answer the identifying questions and then hand the phone to me. Otherwise, I needed to complete a 7 page form.

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My understanding is that Bank powers of attorney are different and we should have a signed POA at the Financial institutions that we seniors deal with.
something for all of us to be aware of and look into
d

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My husband is on the financial services industry. It is standard to only allow a firm specific POA signed at the firm with firm witnesses and notary. The concern is that the POA may have been withdrawn. The only outside form they accept is guardianship/conservatorship papers. So frustrating and I had the same concerns, but hubs showed me on "the system" the policy. It is to protect the account holder, which means it's been done to defraud someone before!

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This is good information. The good news in all of this is the comfort that no one else can get to their money either.

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I had to register an original of the POA with the county clerk...then get copies with the county clerk seal on them before a couple of banks would accept them.
in the case of my son....he was not incompetent just lived way too far away. He had to sign/notarize an affirmation of the POA. Funny doc...it started with “I________ affirm that I am living still on date _________, and reaffirm the POA executed on _________”. We both got a good laugh.

SSA required a signed/notarize form signed by her Doctor which stated she could not handle her own affairs. SSA will not accept a POA no matter what.....

seems everyone is free to make up their own rules.

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Tricky, I've found BofA to be very difficult to deal with, especially after the last 2008 real estate crisis when they radically changed the purpose and scope of their local banks.

Since they claim your mother (or MIL's?) signature has changed, what might you have that's more recent that shows her signature?   Did she write any checks at all (one of the values of handwritten checks as opposed to online banking)? Birthday or holiday cards? Notes?

Do you have a conformed POA, with actual signatures and a stamped "conformed copy" on the document?   This is what I've used, and never had a problem, but we had cultivated relationships with Chase over decades and we had a good working relationship.

Do you have any idea where the initial military lawyer is these days? All the attorneys I know keep copies of any estate plans they draft, including POAs.   And normally they would introduce clients to their staff who notarize any estate planning documents.   BOA SHOULD be able to rely on an attorney who would state the document he prepared is still valid.

If not, you might be able to get a short phone conference with an elder law or estate planning attorney on how to proceed.   They might be able to draft an affidavit attesting to the validity of the original document and verification of her identity then.   If she has any more recent ID cards, such as a (non)driver's license (just for ID), that might assist as well.

Sorry to learn that BofA is being so obnoxious, but it doesn't surprise me.

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I have had the same experience with BofA. They REQUIRE you to take the original document into a bank branch. My mom’s is in her safety deposit box 5 1/2 hours away. I am an only child, no other living relative or friends there. I’ve been trying to get this done for several months - sending costly certified mail copies of all documents with no success.

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You'd be best to go to your elder law attorney with this concern. If it were me, I would have gone to the financial institution with the ORIGINAL Financial POA document.

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I work for a Certified Elder Law Attorney and I will tell you banks are the worst group to work with. You are correct as long as the POA was notarized your mother does not need to be present, that is the purpose of having the document notarized.

I see you did challenge the banker, I would continue with that telling them that according to the law you do not need to have your mother present. If they want the original document you could show them the original but do not let them have the original!

When we get calls from our clients who are at the bank and having similar issues the banker, once we tell them that they don't need to have the original they will back down and say "I will have to check with our legal department and see if we can do this." We respond by saying that's fine with us get back to us once you do that. That is usually all it takes.

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I'm amazed that working for an Elder Law firm that just having a document notarized should not be questioned.

There is not any law which requires that a POA be accepted by any financial institution or any company.

A notary is ONLY claiming he/she has properly followed the rules/regulations set by the Secretary of State and completed all the proper paperwork.

A notary is not required to determine the validity of the document or purpose.

I am a former Bank Officer who had to deal with these situations as well as having to deal with banks that have merged with other banks AND THAT CHANGES POLICIES.

No, bankers and especially tellers DO NOT enjoy parroting company policy. Actually, they hate it! They are the ones who have to take the verbal abuse from the customer because they have had to deny the request.

Best thing should one be in this situation is to go to the top. I do it all of the time until I find a so-called expert to explain EXACTLY what/why the policy is what it is and then discuss. More times than not, I get my way.

If one is successful with having the bank or whoever they are dealing with, please be sure a THANK NOTE is sent to the BIG WIG explaining the situation as well as providing the full name and dept who helped resolve your issue.

This is extremely appreciated by the employee and many times the employee is set as an example to others as to how customer service is done and they may be given a small monetary congratulation from the BIG WIGS.

It's like UNDERCOVER BOSS.

Remember, one attracts more flies with sugar than vinegar.

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Used to work in a bank. They just loved quoting their bank rules at clients but actual knowledge of POA or law was often lacking - even at higher levels.

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My mother had to be dragged into court to sign a paper for her husband’s estate . The judge refused to allow the POA to sign it. Let’s just say once she got her there, the judge regretted her adamant actions lol

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I live in Hawaii and when my mother became mentally incapacitated to handle her financial, business and personal affairs our attorney recommended we go into court and declare her legally incompetent. The court granted me (her daughter) legal guardianship, Trustee and Power of Attorney. I have had no problem moving forward dealing with medical vendors, banks, accountants, government entities, etc. It does cost to go into court, but, worth it.

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Can a financial institution require that my mother be present to validate the POA that she already signed?

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