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Check out aadmm.com in your area to see if one is listed. Once you are set up with one, your bookkeeping might take 15 min for them to pay bills which will amount to about $50 per month. That is unless you now have a court appointed guardian. Then you would need to hire an elder lawyer
Harry, you should seriously consider hiring a professional to manager your complicated financial affairs.
You can check with a certified elder law attorney or your CPA, both can help guide you on the best options for your specific situation.
We have opted for a state licensed fiduciary for our needs, if and when needed. It will be billed at an hourly rate, on top of the fee that our attorney will receive for overseeing their actions. Expensive yes, however, we are solid believers in checks and balance and accountability and responsibility for any paid representative, we have this written in our POAs and Trust. Our attorney thought it was a great idea, keeping temptations away are beneficial for all involved.
If you are so capable that you can revoke a POA, assign ANOTHER POA to your affairs, then you are competent and capable enough to call your bank office and tell them that you have revoked the POA for __________ , and assigned instead __________. This should be done in person with the document whenever possible. And with all entities.
When I had to do banking for my mother, even though I showed them POA signed by my mother, & we have joint accounts, bank still required additional POA from bank. Other things I have to get notarized every year such as her pension income to continue & they have me on file as POA. Nobody can just show up with POA unless they prior approved it . Hugs 🤗
Harry, it sounds to me as if you are wary of assigning anyone as your POA, in case you later change your mind. Or you have assigned someone and now you are regretting it.
Firstly, it's best to not have multiple people assigned as power of attorney for you. It can get messy. If you have complicated financial affairs, then simplify them now, while you can. Otherwise, get your legal advisor to help you make it more simple for the assigned POA to deal with. If you have a separate health POA from a financial POA, make sure they can work together, as your healthcare will require both their input. If you are worried about someone taking over your affairs before you are ready, then don't assign a durable POA. Make any POA contingent upon you becoming incapacitated. If you have already assigned POA and want to change it, just make sure that all relevant institutions know who the current POA is and that the previous one has been revoked.
Once you no longer have capacity, you cannot make any changes. Choose who you most trust. If you don't trust anyone, then give these powers to a "professional fiduciary" (thanks Geaton) who carries out such duties.
You do not need multiple people to sign off on things for you. Once you no longer have capacity, your life should have been simplified.
A financial institution that still deals with an agent whose POA has been revoked could be sued, so they're careful. An assigned POA who does not act in the best interests of the assignee can be accused of criminal behaviour or charged with fraud (depending on what they did wrong). So, there are checks to protect a person who has been incapacitated.
It seems that you are having difficulty with trust. If you don't trust someone - whether it's someone close to you, or someone you pay, to look after your wellbeing and assets, then you will never have peace of mind. Don't you deserve at least that in your twilight years?
If your POA documents were done by an actual lawyer (not downloaded from the internet) and the bank has these documents on record, they are totally legal. How can the bank or other financial or medical institution know if they have been revoked or re-assigned?
The only way for that to become known is if new legal documents are brought in and put on record. Even then they aren't always accepted and sometimes a banks and other institutions will require there be a hearing at the probate court. Then another document is added signed by the probate judge to override the former POA and make the new one active.
It really depends on the type of POA you get. Immediate means as soon as you sign the POA, the POA is involked. You can still make decisions. Springing means that a doctor or doctors have to declare you incompetent to make informed decisions for the POA to be invoked.
IRS does not look at bank accounts. All they care about is you pay taxes on your yearly income. You can have your acct set up however you like. The person can be added on as POA and upon your death, the POA is voided, then the Executor takes over. Ask your Bank about the different ways to add someone to your acct.
If you have not seen a lawyer yet to draw up a POA, I suggest that both you and the person you are assigning go to the lawyer together. You can have things added to a POA. By both going, the lawyer can explain to the person what having POA means and their responsibility to you.
Moms POA was immediate. She suffered from Dementia. I took the POA into the bank and they ran off a copy and that was it. I did not have to prove her disability.
HARRY wrote below “I’m getting old and want someone to help with financial and other affairs if necessary. Some answers here assume that you’ve established POA with everyone who may require your signature but my atty didn’t indicate that. There are likely situations where that’s not the case. Particularly if your financial life is complex.”
Harry, there is a site often recommended for financial questions. It is called boggleheads.org.
If you look around on it you might find helpful info. You can do a search for existing threads on Power of Attorney or pose your own question. I hope that helps.
Might be a good idea to notify your financial institutions - especially those for loans and banks - about any POA type documents and changes. Remember that those POAs do not go into effect until you are unable to make decisions for yourself.
I agree with the responses that one would need to be proactive about notifying all banks & other prior recipients of the former POA. Personally I'd go a step further as the new POA and shift funds to new accounts or even banks if it can be done without a domino effect of other problems.
I would also test the process after a few weeks --- call customer service, find out what the front-end folks at each bank/etc see when they access the accounts to help you. Getting the process done on your end doesn't always cleanly translate to having the bank take care of all their internal loose ends.
I'm baffled, not sure where you are going but if the POA has been rewritten, those doing so would have to prove that it was the intent of the one who had it previously notarized. Signature, ID,social security number. I don't know how many people who willingly give out their SSN. If they are saying they are next in line, they will have to provide a certificate of death to make the claim. I tried to close a cable account that was in dads name but never had mom on it. She had been paying the bill for nearly 10 years but I had to prove it. If there's any kind of discrepancy the institution has to investigate, comparing Signatures for starters, the SSN of both parties. This original should be on file with the state, possibly asking them if another has been filed could help? I don't know if they can throw in an alert of a possible identity theft? It gets really tricky if someone did a change and the person wasn't cognizant at the time. If you hold the original, copies should be sent to financial accounts.
Banks are very careful to ID customers to prove they are who they say they are.
I do want to answer your question with my question. What if the loved one, a financial customer, especially with dementia, is in a care facility and absolutely unable get out to his/her financial institution? Will an agent represent them at the facility with his and his POA's ID? A video and photo of the customer may be helpful.
No one knows unless you tell them. That's why banks require that their customer, i.e. you, be with the POA at the time of the visit. You are the bank's customer, not your POA. The bank will want to both verify the authenticity of the POA documents and *your* intentions and capacity to understand the purpose of the visit to the bank.
I live in a small town where Mom and I did our banking at the same bank. So Moms POA and me being assigned was excepted with no problem.
The Bank would not know if it was revoked and reassigned without you contacting them. When a POA is reassigned, it says in the body of the new document that all POAs prior to this one have been revoked. Its up to you to contact your doctors, banking institutions and anyone else that may have been given a copy, that the prior assignment has been revoked and replaced with a new person. Then you make sure everyone gets a new copy of the POA. You can call everyone and give them a heads up, too. You could have a formal letter sent to everyone from the lawyer.
If I was revoking or reassigning POA for some reason I would notify all of my financial institutions along with my medical team. A person can have more than one POA and POA documents can limit/clearly spell out the scope of representation, for instance “Alice may act as my POA for this particular transaction” or “Alice has full authority to act on my behalf”.
I may be wrong but I would have thought you supply bank with new copy of poa and it be updated in the system. When x y z company looks to check they wouldn’t be able to sparking security alert- I would have thought
Everyone who visits bank locations requires to show their photo ID'S to prove who they are they say who they are. I'm wondering how online-only banking platforms verify customer ID'S.
How about the original customer who assigned POA,s who lives in a facility and cannot get out to a bank or other business?
I had worked in banking for over 30 years and went through annual compliance training as part of my required job since 9/11. It's extreme safety procedure to protect customers from fraudulent activities.
I was sitting in the social security office waiting for my turn. You hear all sorts of things there. I heard someone complaining their son had stolen $16,000 from them. From being the POA for my father, I could see how that could happen. You tell people who you made POA and you leave your estate planning documents accessible (not locked up). Then the unethical person searches around until they find the POA and goes to the bank to access accounts.
Because you told them would be my not an attorney quick answer.
Are you asking what is to keep someone from taking the POA you assigned them and using it after you have revoked it and reassigned it?
I know you chose a bank as an example but banks are pretty exacting…see Geaton’s post. Although Geaton’s example was to be established as POA at the bank. Your query reads more like after the person was already POA and now you are revoking.
I suppose if I thought someone I had trusted enough to make my agent via a POA had gone roque and I had to revoke the POA, it would behove me to take action immediately.
Speak to my attorney for advice and to review all legal documents, freeze my credit, notify all financial and medical including pharmacy that I had made a change. It would depend on the scope of the principals holdings as to who should be notified.
It’s an interesting question. Care to share what prompted it?
I’m getting old and want someone to help with financial and other affairs if necessary. Some answers here assume that you’ve established POA with everyone who may require your signature but my atty didn’t indicate that. There are likely situations where that’s not the case. Particularly if your financial life is complex.
A POA takes their documents to the Bank and becomes a part of all financial accounts as the signee for checking and etc. That person takes on management and billpaying, etc. If yet ANOTHER person shows up with yet another POA that one should revoke the rights of the original person; otherwise there would be a conflict. The Bank should follow up when a new POA shows up by reading the document, checking with attornies, contacting the old POA, and etc.
Your question should be asked of the banking institution. They will give you a more accurate answer for their own institution and how it handles this.
WF told me that POA along with proof of my disability gets recorded and gives the person access to my affairs. Of course this was maybe just the policy of the guy in that branch. Doesn’t appear there are any consistent rules.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
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I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
That is unless you now have a court appointed guardian. Then you would need to hire an elder lawyer
You can check with a certified elder law attorney or your CPA, both can help guide you on the best options for your specific situation.
We have opted for a state licensed fiduciary for our needs, if and when needed. It will be billed at an hourly rate, on top of the fee that our attorney will receive for overseeing their actions. Expensive yes, however, we are solid believers in checks and balance and accountability and responsibility for any paid representative, we have this written in our POAs and Trust. Our attorney thought it was a great idea, keeping temptations away are beneficial for all involved.
Firstly, it's best to not have multiple people assigned as power of attorney for you. It can get messy.
If you have complicated financial affairs, then simplify them now, while you can. Otherwise, get your legal advisor to help you make it more simple for the assigned POA to deal with.
If you have a separate health POA from a financial POA, make sure they can work together, as your healthcare will require both their input.
If you are worried about someone taking over your affairs before you are ready, then don't assign a durable POA. Make any POA contingent upon you becoming incapacitated.
If you have already assigned POA and want to change it, just make sure that all relevant institutions know who the current POA is and that the previous one has been revoked.
Once you no longer have capacity, you cannot make any changes. Choose who you most trust. If you don't trust anyone, then give these powers to a "professional fiduciary" (thanks Geaton) who carries out such duties.
You do not need multiple people to sign off on things for you. Once you no longer have capacity, your life should have been simplified.
A financial institution that still deals with an agent whose POA has been revoked could be sued, so they're careful. An assigned POA who does not act in the best interests of the assignee can be accused of criminal behaviour or charged with fraud (depending on what they did wrong). So, there are checks to protect a person who has been incapacitated.
It seems that you are having difficulty with trust. If you don't trust someone - whether it's someone close to you, or someone you pay, to look after your wellbeing and assets, then you will never have peace of mind.
Don't you deserve at least that in your twilight years?
Has it been revoked or reassigned?
What's the full story here?
You might need / want to contact an attorney specializing in elder care / trusts, etc.
Gena / Touch Matters
The only way for that to become known is if new legal documents are brought in and put on record. Even then they aren't always accepted and sometimes a banks and other institutions will require there be a hearing at the probate court. Then another document is added signed by the probate judge to override the former POA and make the new one active.
IRS does not look at bank accounts. All they care about is you pay taxes on your yearly income. You can have your acct set up however you like. The person can be added on as POA and upon your death, the POA is voided, then the Executor takes over. Ask your Bank about the different ways to add someone to your acct.
If you have not seen a lawyer yet to draw up a POA, I suggest that both you and the person you are assigning go to the lawyer together. You can have things added to a POA. By both going, the lawyer can explain to the person what having POA means and their responsibility to you.
Moms POA was immediate. She suffered from Dementia. I took the POA into the bank and they ran off a copy and that was it. I did not have to prove her disability.
“I’m getting old and want someone to help with financial and other affairs if necessary. Some answers here assume that you’ve established POA with everyone who may require your signature but my atty didn’t indicate that. There are likely situations where that’s not the case. Particularly if your financial life is complex.”
Harry, there is a site often recommended for financial questions. It is called boggleheads.org.
If you look around on it you might find helpful info. You can do a search for existing threads on Power of Attorney or pose your own question. I hope that helps.
I would also test the process after a few weeks --- call customer service, find out what the front-end folks at each bank/etc see when they access the accounts to help you. Getting the process done on your end doesn't always cleanly translate to having the bank take care of all their internal loose ends.
I do want to answer your question with my question. What if the loved one, a financial customer, especially with dementia, is in a care facility and absolutely unable get out to his/her financial institution? Will an agent represent them at the facility with his and his POA's ID? A video and photo of the customer may be helpful.
The Bank would not know if it was revoked and reassigned without you contacting them. When a POA is reassigned, it says in the body of the new document that all POAs prior to this one have been revoked. Its up to you to contact your doctors, banking institutions and anyone else that may have been given a copy, that the prior assignment has been revoked and replaced with a new person. Then you make sure everyone gets a new copy of the POA. You can call everyone and give them a heads up, too. You could have a formal letter sent to everyone from the lawyer.
and it be updated in the system. When x y z company looks to check they wouldn’t be able to sparking security alert- I would have thought
Just reading these threads now..
Everyone who visits bank locations requires to show their photo ID'S to prove who they are they say who they are. I'm wondering how online-only banking platforms verify customer ID'S.
How about the original customer who assigned POA,s who lives in a facility and cannot get out to a bank or other business?
I had worked in banking for over 30 years and went through annual compliance training as part of my required job since 9/11. It's extreme safety procedure to protect customers from fraudulent activities.
Are you asking what is to keep someone from taking the POA you assigned them and using it after you have revoked it and reassigned it?
I know you chose a bank as an example but banks are pretty exacting…see Geaton’s post. Although Geaton’s example was to be established as POA at the bank. Your query reads more like after the person was already POA and now you are revoking.
I suppose if I thought someone I had trusted enough to make my agent via a POA had gone roque and I had to revoke the POA, it would behove me to take action immediately.
Speak to my attorney for advice and to review all legal documents, freeze my credit, notify all financial and medical including pharmacy that I had made a change. It would depend on the scope of the principals holdings as to who should be notified.
It’s an interesting question. Care to share what prompted it?
Your question should be asked of the banking institution. They will give you a more accurate answer for their own institution and how it handles this.