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My mom, mid 70s, seems to be making dangerous decisions and I’m not sure what to do. Like going out when it’s icy, but she just healed from a break, for something random not essential. Or before she was having issues seeing but still went out. Not understanding covid and things like washing hands and sanitizer. When I try to reason with her she just gets stubborn and then ignores the topic. She tells me that she can do what she wants but these are risky behaviors. And guess who gets called when there is a problem. On top of that I’ve caught her in so many lies. I can’t be there every second but she seems willfully to do these things that lack common sense. Some of the things could also put other family members at risk. I don’t know what to do. Like she insists I take time off to drive them places when at the same time she’s sneaking off on her own. Any advice?

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Has she had a recent physical? Is she prone to UTIs?
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Abby88142 Jan 2021
Yes and No.
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Is this behavior new? Does she have dementia or do you suspect she does?

The more info the better advice you will get. FWIW I also have a mom who engages in risky behavior and tells me she can do what she wants. You are not alone, many here get it believe me!
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Abby88142 Jan 2021
Thank you!
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There is a big difference between "lack of common sense" and dementia. If your Mom has the former, and not the latter, then really there is nothing you can do but reason with her. This I would do gently when you are getting along. Tell her you need to sit with her and talk to her. Then explain that any fall for her could result in an injury that would incapacitate her enough that she would need to go into nursing home care. Not about her common sense, just about the fragility of bones with age. Tell her that you are concerned for her, and say this only because of your worries for her.
Then let her speak.
Then, basically, it is over. You have done what you can. And these things are self limiting in that her choices will dictate what the outcome is for her life.
You cannot change people.
If you are speaking about dementia and an inability now to be safe alone, and safe in making her decisions, then she may need to go into care, where these decisions will be made for her.
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rovana Jan 2021
So you must let elders do dangerous behaviors that impact the whole family? I mean like letting them mix cleaning fluids and release nerve gas? I think you would be wiser to decide that when dangerous behaviors are done, elder will face consequences. And if you cannot control elder, then time to let a facility do it! Why should other family members have to put up with this stuff?
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Willfully doing things that lack common sense - I can relate to this with my LO. We could not stop her!!! It was hard to accept that and it was a lifelong problem that got worse as she aged. She was never able to predict consequences or accept that there could be a bad outcome - she just went for it. She brought a lot of heartache squarely upon herself and there wasn't much we could do about it since she has her own free will and was refusing other living arrangements.

She would pull all kinds of stunts when she was alone for any length of time: using knives to open packages (she was on blood thinners), unnecessary trips up and down basement stairs (she was a severe fall risk even on a "good" day), deciding she "had to" put up Christmas lights outside (she did have a fall from this), routinely having long conversations with scam telemarketers (I'm sure she gave up info that she should not have), letting strangers into the house, making unnecessary car trips as well (long after her driving ability had started to come into question).

Regarding the driving in particular, I didn't think I could successfully get her license revoked so I decided that I would make as many trips for her as possible so that she would have less of a reason to drive and would not be on the road as much. Nice theory? She STILL came up with the same number of "reasons" why she had to drive here and there, so all that I did for her was just on top of that.

After a long and painful caregiving experience (there were a multitude of health issues on top of her poor judgment), she had an unwitnessed fall - which we believe involved a loss of consciousness. She went to the hosp and to the nursing home permanently after that. What led to that final fall at home? She told us she remembers looking for something which was stowed away somewhere & she fell trying to get it. She had a helper in the morning, another in the afternoon, and someone was coming back in the evening. WHY she did not wait for a helper to come and search for this missing item is beyond me. Unnecessary, reckless behavior cost her what was left of her independence. She's still that same person now that she's in 24/7 care, but she's falling less and general safety is much better. I would have loved for her to learn to live safely, but the more I preached.... it seemed like the more stunts she would pull off.
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Abby88142 Jan 2021
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If no Dementia and just being stubborn, then tell her she is on her own and not to call you if she falls, just call 911. If she gets COVID, then she is quarantined to her house. As such, you will not be coming into her home. And if she leaves it while quarantined, u will call the police. Believe me, I was raised by a stubborn man. When he wouldn't use a walker to go to his doctor and it took Mom and me to get him to an elevator, hold him up, and then down the hall to the office, I told him I would not bring him again without a walker. Next time he agreed because I was the only one that could take him. Of course, when he got home, I got the walker back.
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Abby88142 Jan 2021
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I had to move my parents here in 2011 after dad had to stop driving after a few minor fender benders. I found them a great apartment in an Independent Senior Living place about 5 miles away from me, their only child. My mother was 84 at the time and had always been a liar but suddenly, every word out of her mouth was a lie.

One day, after promising me she was staying in all day, she crossed a very busy main street and went to Walgreens, after I purposely TOLD her I was going there to pick up her prescriptions. So you can imagine her shock & horror when someone tapped her on the shoulder in Walgreens later that day. She turned around and saw ME standing there, not in a very good mood, either. "What are YOU doing here?" she wanted to know. I had a better question, "What are YOU doing here mom?" She nervously laughed.

That was the beginning of the continuation of a very strained relationship between she and I. She's now 94 and living in Memory Care. So you could say that she was starting down the dementia highway back then, or, you could say that she has always been a stubborn ox with a penchant for compulsive lying.

She'd also insist on going for 'nice long walks' in a neighborhood she was unfamiliar with, alone, with no ID, no cell phone or medical alert button or any way to call for help if she needed it. And had bad neuropathy in her legs even then. My poor father would worry himself sick every time she did that, which was often. There was no reasoning with her, no talking to her, in fact she'd laugh in his face when my father begged her to stop going on those walks.

The moral of the story is this: you can't save a person from herself.

Something will probably happen one day to remove your mother's power of choice, and then she will wind up placed somewhere she doesn't want to be because she's made one too many unwise decisions and refused to listen to reason once too often. The hospitals are full of those people and so are rehabs.

Unfortunately, YOU are the one to pick up the pieces of the messes she is likely to make, as I have been all my life. THAT is the irritating part. Waiting for The Phone Call. And hoping for the best.
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I hate to say it, but sometimes we just have to sit back and wait for 'Something' to happen!

My own mother was spending money she didn't have like thousands of dollars and I tried & tried to tell her she would lose her home, but she refuse to listen to me! I and my Sig-other live with her and all I could do was pay the house taxes and house insurance, while I waited for the bottom to fall out. It finally did!! She bounced hundreds of dollars of checks, almost lost her Health insurance. I ended up saving her health insurance then I made her come clean. She spent 89,000 dollars in less than three yrs and had to filed bankruptcy. She lost her truck and my brother's truck because her name was on it and she took out a 10,000 dollars loan! And like always, I was the one who cleaned up her mess as I have done my whole life! Sigh!!!

Now, I handle all her finances and pay all her bills and the house bills!

Unfortunately, people have alright to make bad decisions and there is nothing we can do!!
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Get her a doctor's appointment to examine her for dementia. This sounds like Alzheimer's disease - the person with it doesn't recognize that he/she has poor decision-making. The other option may be a small stroke that affects the decision-making area of the brain. Don't be surprised if your mom's primary care doctor makes a referral to a neurologist. In the meantime, try to keep her safe and make sure you have powers of attorney for financial and medical drawn up by a lawyer.
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There is so often such a gulf between what is important FOR a person, and what’s important TO that person. It does sound like she may have some degree of dementia. Even if that is the case, what CAN she control in her life, what is most meaningful to her?

I just finished reading the book, Being Mortal, by Atul Gawande, and would recommend it to all of us dealing with loved ones who are aging and/or infirmed. It is so compassionate and well written, by a surgeon with patients who deal with end of life choices, as their choices dwindle. He’s especially credible as he goes through this with his own beloved father.
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Recognizing Mom for who she is, what is changing about her and doing your best to be supportive without damage to yourself, is the job. I'm hearing some kids attitudes of self righteous judgmental resentment, and remember, this lady was your diaper changer. Maybe Mom is tired of you on her back, tells you what she thinks you want to hear, then goes to the store, probably to get out of the house as we are all feeling shut in. Then she has to deal with your snippy attitude. Also, we are just completing a regime of incredible lies & devisiveness that have eroded and corroded our society right down to the family level, we're all a bit polluted. I'm tired of selfless caregiving too, especially when no love is returned, and his only offspring & relative is in early stage FTD (frontal temporal dementia) as well. Take care of yourself, first. Then, look at your options and make the best choice. Good luck!
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I’m sorry you are going through this. My mother always made bad decisions (likely an underlying mental illness) but once she hit 70 she was more and more unreasonable and disorganized. Looking back I believe it was the onset of dementia. There was nothing I could do except get out of the way because she was untruthful about so many things. When she was older I called APS several times and they found her to be “completely fine.” Now she’s going to be 88 this year and last year everything came crashing down. She made many many bad decisions along the way that impacted her finances and so many other things.

There were layers and layers of issues with my mother that prevented me from helping her or even communicating with her. If you have had a good relationship with your mother then you can try to have a come to The Lord meeting. You can call her out when she is not being truthful: “Mom that’s not true and that won’t work.” You can tell her that you are not going to support certain decisions. Keep it simple when talking to her like, “that’s not working for me (like if she wants you to leave work to do something that negatively impacts your time and job), you need to think of another way.” “Mom you are putting me and my family at risk and I won’t have any part of it - what are your other options.” Sounds tough but this may be just the beginning of a long battle.

Someone on his forum suggested trying to get her to her doctor and that would be a good way to start if she will agree to go. Early intervention can help. No one would give me a diagnosis of dementia (or anything for that matter) until she was placed in an ALF and was seen by a new doctor and specialist.

I am glad you are taking some action and finding some help in the beginning of it all. So many others on this forum, including me, are armpit deep. You need to first set boundaries for your own and your family’s well-being. I would not move her in with you or quit your job to be a full time caregiver. Just saying. You need to have some mastery over the situation and not let it run you ragged. I tried to step in many years ago and it was so stressful I ended up in the hospital myself.

Unfortunately for my mother I had to cut off contact, wait until she was sent to the hospital several times and her finances were in a mess. And sometimes that’s is what it takes. I am not trying to paint a bleak picture here, I’m just trying to share that with some parents it’s not an easy journey. Start reaching out for local resources now and make sure all her paperwork now in order. Keep us posted.
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There is nothing you can do.

Judt because ya'll don't see eye to eye about what she does, unless you have power of attorney and your mom has given up all rights regarding g her decision making, ect, you need to just let her do as she pleases.

If she wants to go somewhere and you can't or don't want to take her, let her call an Uber.

Lots of people choose to do things others think are inappropriate or wrong or even dangerous but your mom can and should do as she pleases in regards to herself.

Juse like wearing a mask or getting the Covid Shot, it is and should be everyone's own choice.
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Dosmo13 Jan 2021
I agree, bevthegreat. Trying to convince mom not to drive and then complain because she calls and asks for a ride is a bit confusing to me. Perhaps it is for mom, too. We all know that good hand washing is important to health, especially with Covid. But is failure to do so really that dangerous? Is it worth a major conflict?

This mother is an adult. She has been making her own decisions for many years and, apparently, successfully so.
She should not be treated like a child. It is acceptable for her to disagree with family members about some things.

Don't jump to conclusions about "dementia" without medical verification. Just how "dangerous" are her decisions? Life threatening? And are ultimatums required?

Perhaps if she limits driving to short distances and familiar neighborhoods, she can continue to drive a while longer (depends on her present ability/disability). And maybe she can agree to this, if approached with reason and sensitivity. Every case is different, but It has been wisely advised in dealing with children (AND with elders) to choose ones battles wisely.
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I am going through this right now with my Mother. One of the first signs of dementia is "making bad decisions". I don't think your Mom is lying. I think it is "dementia talking". My Mom tells all sorts of stories, that you would not believe. If you can, take away her car keys. Take her to a doctor (preferably a neurologist) to get evaluated. Make sure you give the doctor a heads up on her behavior before the appointment. I feel for you. I hope everything works out for the better for you.
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You're so right blondinthesky. Making bad decisions is an extremely important clue to what's going on. The problem I had was that my LO had a lifelong trail of bad decisions. She was always very flighty and could not see possible consequences that most reasonable adults should be able to see. Of course, she was enabled by a network of people with whom she could hold a pity party and they would bail her out. She rarely had to feel consequences and therefore never had to learn to prevent them. So when I started seeing what I was calling "bad decisions", it was things that were out of the curve (even for her). I had onlookers laughing and telling me "That's just how she is." So, no support for me in trying to help her. Personally, I think she would have been ADD if she were in school today, but she was in school at a time when poor students and those who lacked reasoning were just written off. Thanks for pointing out that flawed decisions are an important sign. It matters and should prompt further observation of the person at the very least. I have also found that sometimes the differences between alarmingly flawed decisions and the person's baseline bad decisions is subtle. This is a difficult situation regardless.
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I see dementia here - big time and getting worse. And she is fighting to be "in control" and will attack anyone who says something different. You might take her car away since you are willing to take her but prepare for the battle of the century. You may have to be tough and tell her if she persists, you are going for guardianship and placing her into a facility. You don't reason - it is impossible and they won't listen - so get very tough and set boundaries.
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This is behavior associated with dementia. Make sure all of her paperwork is in order while she can still sign legal documents: power of attorney for medical and financial decisions, living will with her medical directives, will, POA forms that some banks and financial institutions require, be on her social security account as someone who can speak on her behalf. You may need an attorney for this. Some people (like my mother) don't know that they have dementia. They think everything is normal and resist attempts to get them in a safer situation. Hopefully she is not getting lost when she sneaks away. My mother would get lost and not know how to get back home. Your mother's situation can decline further. Be prepared for it. She may need 24/7 care at some point.
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Frances73 Jan 2021
Make sure you are on her checking account as a co-signer so you can pay bills.
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You've probably already done so, but ask here which nursing home she wants to live in when she breaks something that won't heal correctly. If she really is of sound mind, then she's right. She can do what ever she wants to do. She's gonna be sorry for being hardheaded, but she does have the right. You might also tell her if she's going to continue to go without mask/hand washing, you won't be able to keep coming to her house. You can call and order groceries for her, but you can't come in to sit and chat because you don't want to catch it. That will include driving her places since you don't want to be confined in the car with her after she goes out and about
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Beatty Jan 2021
'Tough love' approach.
I chose where & who I could safely visit through the pandemic. (It did not include relatives that didn't wash their hands/wear masks when out).
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This may not be your situation at all, but a narcissist will make decisions that feed their need for attention - even if it's from strangers and hurts themselves financially or otherwise. If that is the case, there is nothing you can do except know you tried.
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Packing up my recently deceased moms things,, she was 90 and frail, mostly blind. Tiny as a bird. What did I find in her stuff? A set of car keys to her sweet ride that I bought from her in 2015! I knew I was missing a set, and she told me she had them.. but I never really thought she did! what was she thinking.., she was going to drive off to the casino? ( she did in all honesty tell me she still thought she could.. in our horrible traffic) She didn;t have a DL in over 10 years! Whenever the weather was bad.. she would try to go out and "help" hubs with the snow.. WTH ?? They are hard to control when they get to this point, and I understand they hate to be "controled".. My sweet Aunt at 87 still climbs on ladders,, and has the broken bones to prove it!
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2021
So true. A few years back my mom was digging in my husband’s toolbox to find a tool to fix a floor lamp in her room.

Fortunately, my oldest daughter caught her and asked her why was she digging in the toolbox and asked mom if she could help with anything.

My daughter tightened up the shade on her lamp that was getting loose.

They forget that they shouldn’t overextend themselves because they could fall and injure themselves.
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Put together a list of senior facilities and ask your mother to chose the one she wants to live in after her next accident.

Can you notify the BMV and get her license reviewed? Ask Mom how much auto coverage she has for injuries she might cause. Perhaps her insurance company needs to be informed so they can cancel her policy?
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Imho, perhaps she needs to be seen by her primary care physician for starters as something seems amiss with her illogical thinking. Prayers sent.
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Lack of insight.
Executive processing problems + strong willed personality = a wild ride.
Hold on.
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somehow find her keys and take them without her knowing or somehow disable the vehicle so it won't start. Depending on what she is doing that is causing harm, let her know that If something happens to one of her loved ones she might feel really bad, but if her reasoning is gone, then do whatever you need to do to keep her from driving anywhere at anytime.  tell her it is not safe right now to be out and running around and that she might end up in jail (you hate to threaten but IF that would keep her at home, then do it).  wishing you luck......
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disgustedtoo Jan 2021
IF and only IF they can get a Dx of dementia should this be considered. I and several others have gotten flak in comments about taking the car or even suggesting taking the car! We only suggest it if there's dementia involved (and is highly dependent on whether it is very early stage and where they might be driving.)

Taking a car away from someone who is just pig-headed, overly "independent" and adamant they're going to do what they want is going to have some serious repercussions. In my case, a mother with dementia, really bad hearing AND macular degeneration, I was willing to stand up to any legal ramifications from taking the car away. The only other option was to wait for her to kill herself or someone else, and I wouldn't want to live with that decision! (BTW, her state she lived in at that time required "self-reporting" for dementia - ahahahaha, like that would happen!)

Sadly OP's mother could also cause an accident and injure or kill herself or others, but so could we. There are MANY drivers who demonstrate risky behavior behind the wheel, but no one takes their car away (until perhaps they kill someone.) BUT, if she is considered "competent", you can't legally just take her car away, much as it might pain you.
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It sound like she may have dementia and unable to cognitively make appropriate decisions for her well-being. Individuals with brain changes/dementia do engage in risky behaviors.

What may seem like lying to you may be dementia.

It sounds like you feel you do not have any option to say "No" to her.
You do have that option, and it is essential you address the issue.

You need to set boundaries for what you will and won't do for her.
Before you can set boundaries, you need to clarify and understand your own behaviors and the decisions you are making.

"Just" because there is a 'problem' (and problems, as you say) will certainly come up over and over again. While this doesn't mean you have to 'clean up the mess' after the fact, she seem to feel obligated to. Why?

Certainly not taking necessary Covid precautions is a major risk to her and others around her. It sounds like she needs to be in a facility with 24/7 care.

If you do not set boundaries for yourself and your mom, nothing will change.
By writing to us here, it sounds like you want to make some changes and need guidance/support to do so. If you can, see a therapist to gain some clarity on why you are responding to her as you are, and decide if you want to set boundaries. There will be behavioral changes in your mother 'if' and 'when' you change your behavior. She may act out more because she wants, and expects, you to behave as you have been.

Remember, you cannot change your mom, you can only change your behavior, and do the best you can to keep her safe.
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If she is competent, she has the right to live her life the way she sees fit.

To make this issue clearer, for example, my brother is about 400 pounds and I can talk about dieting and lifestyle chances but it is his decision how he wants to live his life and must live with the consequences. I cannot force him to diet or make these changes, just as I cannot tell you how to live or eat.
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