I’ve had many ‘awful’ comments about my attitude to feral cats.

HI Alva - much appreciation for your understanding. I've always admired and respected your comments to posts - I'm a big fan of yours!

- sending love :)

Hope,
I take your points. I missed the posts you mention. I will say I don't do "Discussions" often because it seems often to descend into arguments, but I am here a lot lately because of the recent problems of two of our treasured long time members, RealyReal, whose Mom just passed and Lea who is facing down medical problems. So I am basically coming in on discussions that may have a long history I am unaware of.
Again, I take your points and agree with what you have said. I haven't seen Margaret's posts about cats, only her posts above helping people.

Hi Alva - I just wanted to share that Margaret actually came into this topic previously prefacing her comments by saying she was "stirring the pot" - and so, she was aware that this topic was going to be offensive to some...and get a rise out of them. It's just not necessary. It didn't go well last time either.

And, the cat that her deranged neighbor bagged and gassed couldn't have been feral - because it's impossible to even hold a feral cat and dump into a bag.

These graphic descriptions are alarming and yes, disturbing - and on the opposite end, there should be some consideration for those who have a sensitivity to animals and feel otherwise. It takes a lot for me to be confrontational..it's not my nature by any means..but I felt a sense that Margaret was rather enjoying this.

Cwillie, thank you for your message. I will try to remember that the US has an overwhelming city population with a very wide range of ideas. I still think of it as having a large rural base.

Here we had a big push from PETA a few years ago. Keen (pre-covid) mask wearing members were trespassing at night on any farm they thought might be keeping animals inappropriately (eg shed chooks, pigs, whatever). It was appalling for genuine bio-security, frightening in the night for farmer families, gates left open wrongly so dangerous strays on roads etc etc ... quite damaging all round. Legislation was eventually passed to make it easier to prosecute with serious penalties. However along the way PETA got a bad press (as well as their ideas pushed initially) and then less publicity on the mainstream media. I haven’t heard about them for quite a long while now.

The full message also got out, that PETA disapproved of a pets (kept for "degrading human pleasure"), and all domestic farm animals ("doomed for death" for the "pleasure of humans"). The PETA credo’s impact on pet lovers, the landscape, diet, farming options etc was just so dramatic that it died a death. You had to read the full PETA site to get the full picture, which I did. Vegetarians finally realised that eating eggs and dairy wasn’t OK (cheese was often the problem), and at the same time the highly processed vegan options started to get criticised by dieticians.

My own experience is with my daughter who is stuck with a difficult vegan+fish diet to control MS, and various friends who seemed to stay vegan for a couple of years and then get over it. A teen daughter's stayover friend who was announced to be vegetarian after I'd cooked a roast dinner. Daughter: "Her middle name's Rainbow, you should have guessed she'd be vegetarian". Me: "You didn't tell me her middle name". I’ve got no problem with it - whatever you need to do! I strongly believe in kind care for animals, priority for the needs of carers and elders, a quick and easy death for all of us, and common sense during life.


Site readers with open minds may be interested to learn that there is NO dispute here about eradicating feral cats, wild dogs or cane toads, but quite high tempers about control for feral horses (bad for native vegetation in the Snowy Mountains, and so for the dependent wildlife), and wild camels in the desert (which are also bad for the environment). But oh so cute? We all have our problems!

Feral cats are those born in the wild and never bonded with humans. They live in colonies. A domesticated cat that has been "dropped" off will not be welcomed into a feral colony. So they are on their own. Once feral very hard to domesticate. My niece has a colony behind her house of 30/40 cats. She is with a "Catch and Release Program" The County catches them, spays and neuters them and gives shots. But my niece has to come up with the $40 for the neutering and spaying. In an area of about 21 miles I think there maybe 4 colonies and a shelter that takes in animals from our township and the one next to us. We also have a no kill shelter in the County. The State regulates the County shelter so only allows so many cats and dogs.

I have had cats and I feel sorry for those who are feral. But when do we have to say enough. My niece is always asking for for food. Because she cannot afford to care of the cats. I am sure the other 3 colonies are asking too. Then the Township shelter and then the County Shelter. I have donated food and will continue but how long do we continue to do so. Cats can have kittens 2x a year. They can start reproducing at 6 months. Each Cat can have 4 to 6 kittens. So that means that one cat has 4 kittens, if all female those kittens will have 4 kittens in a little over 6 months=16+ the original 4 makes 20 cats in a year. They just keep multiplying and need to be fed.

I will tell you that Farmers in the US probably feel like Margaret. If an animal kills their animals or does destruction to their property they have to get rid of them. I can so see how Margaret feels.

I live in a housing development. A neighbor down the street started feeding strays. She had at least 15 at one time. The smell from unfixed males was awful. Neighbors complained but Township does not capture, you have to. One day the cats were gone. We suspect the Township finally trapped them. But where can they go, shelters don't want them because they can't mix with domesticated cats. Those captured were probably put down. What else could they do.

I do think there is a difference in to how people consider animals. I have loved and worked with animals all my life. I am 80 and still fostering dogs and cats, and I love them. I ALSO recognize that there are serious problems with our pets let loose because we no longer care, on the general public and on our songbirds. In the west, there are even wild dog packs. This is often a "cultural problem" as those who know anything about the wild dog populations of the world to say nothing of the cats, can witness to. I take no offense at Margaret's question to us. Margaret is a VERY longstanding participant in aging care. Something that may not be known to others who are more recent to the site. I don't see a reason to go to war over our differences, and think when we discuss these subjects we often come to know that we have more in common with our concerns than differences. AgingCare is a different animal to me than most social media sites. I wouldn't be here if it were otherwise. I say all opinions welcomed on this one.

i have a 20 cat feral colony ( at the begining) and we had them trapped, fixed, ear tipped and given thier shots. We found a great home for 2 kittens, and another 3 have decided our house is a great place to live as it's warm and they have couchs and beds,, and a puppy to play with. They were returned to us to live out thier lives, and we have little houses for them and they get fed 2x a day, have a wooded area, and seem generally satisfied. We also have plenty of birds,, squirells and chipmonks. What I don;t have is a ton of mice/rats/ and moles. In my area if you are caught killing ferals you get fined. We also have some dog issues,, last week they found 7 large dogs starving/dead in a pen in a mans yard. I sort of think my ferals are better off than those dogs were.. So MM, I think you are not going to find alot of support from those of us in the US, and I agree that you seem to like stirring things up,,, go for it if it makes you happy but don't expect to find many respecting you any longer,,

Hope, no I wasn't just ranting. Do you even know what a passenger pigeon was?

Your 'advice' to me is as likely to be appreciated as me suggesting that you learn to read before your misquote. Only that's justified.

It's not a good morning here, and I'm not feeling too tolerant. Good bye.

I would rather the feral cats be trapped, neutered, chipped and released than killed.
(I think I would rather the owners of the cats that are allowed to roam free not spayed or neutered be spayed or neutered as well...this does not include the ones that dump cats..they deserve their own kind of h311)
Cats should not be allowed to roam outside un leashed (yes it is possible to leash a cat)
Not only do the cats kill birds but the cats are prey for wild animals and many cats are not vaccinated so they can get sick (rabies, distemper and a whole host of other problems) not to mention many get hit by cars.
There are programs where feral cats are spayed, neutered chipped then brought to barns on farms where they become barn cats hopefully keeping down the population of rodents.
Other programs just s/n/c and release back to where they were trapped. Most cats in these programs have an ear clipped or a tattoo indicating they have been spayed or neutered and released.
It is almost impossible to "tame" a feral kitten so it then is subject to the life outside after being trapped, spayed/neutered, chipped. Not a good, happy long life that an indoor cat has.
Feral cats are a problem everywhere

Margaret - the only thing you've convinced me is that you're really hard-core. I'd never try to provide advice to you - it would go wasted. You're set in your animal killing ways. I just think you should keep it to yourself.

And your rationale of asking yourself why you raised this topic doesn't even make sense - it's just ranting. I think that you just wanted to get a rise out of people.

So, do you feel better now?

...and by the way, you spend way too much time trying to come up with comparisons and analogies for what you kill - and how you kill ...and justifying your methods. It's rather disturbing ~

I was thinking ‘why do I raise this”? I only do when carers or elders are making life extremely difficult by treating pets (often elderly, sometimes incontinent and ill) as of equal importance to the overworked, overstressed people involved. Also when I read unrealistic glib comments about ‘no-kill shelters’ as the answer– easily checked on the net, and not in fact credible (particularly for elderly, incontinent and ill).

My mother died of cancer, and would have been quite willing for a quick painless death – like I’d provide for a pet in the circumstances.

Margaret - there are many, many people out there who give animals, especially their pets, equal importance to humans.... I have no doubt talking about killing one would make those people queasy and treating any animal as less than a pampered pet would be characterized as torture. Isn't PETA a thing down in OZ?

Margaret,

It isn’t only cats. People are supposed to abide by leash laws for their dogs. Most do, but not always.

I remember when there weren’t any leash laws in my city. Dogs would roam around freely. They were hit by cars, get into fights with other dogs and so on.

My mom allowed my dog to run free. He would follow me around everywhere, even to school. Most days, he would sit by my bicycle until I got out of school but one day he decided to follow me into my classroom. My teacher was not happy.

I was only in the first grade and I thought I could tell Sister that he wasn’t my dog. 😆 I found out very quickly not to try to get over on a nun! Of course, I got punished for my dog being in my classroom.

Dogs need to be on a leash. Another time a stray dog came into our yard and killed my kitten. I was devastated.

It’s so strange that some people are opposed to spaying or neutering their cats and dogs. Some places will offer a discount on the procedure. Honestly, if a person can’t afford to take care of veterinary services they shouldn’t own a pet.

Hope, thanks for your advice, which I doubt I'll take. Terrified? You must be joking.

Oz has a path not to follow the US with the passenger pigeon extinction and the buffalo. It might have helped the US if there were a few more sensible people in the early days of settlement.

I raised it again, because I thought the news article might genuinely interest people in the US - a different route to travel. I'm sorry about the wrong site quote - it's

www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/councils-push-for-stronger-laws-to-keep-pet-cats-inside/101968794

I wonder why the responses I get are so often bizarrely different from the situation here, and what I've actually said. "Torture"? "Queasy"?

Margaret - I really don't know what your intention was in bringing up this unsettling topic yet again...obviously, it didn't go well the first time and some things are better left there.

I think you need to stop trying to gain approval in the way you handle "getting rid of cats" - or, as you refer to them as "pests." And I did understand that you shot the cat while being caged...that doesn't make it more acceptable. The cat must have been terrified.

This is a really bad subject - killing animals and what you feel is "justified." And yes, your stories are making me queasy.

I think some of these ‘awful comments’ are in other people’s heads, not mine. No, I never had a neighbor who “tied a cat to the back of his car and dragged it from behind the car as the car sped away while the fumes were coming out of the back”. My 80 year old friend was an early settler who didn’t then have a gun license, tied the bagged cat to the exhaust pipe and turned the engine on. He said it was very quick. It is a time-honored suicide method for humans, and in fact for murder. I checked on Google, and the concentration in a small bag would have been fatal in about 30 seconds, which is a reasonably humane way to kill a pest. Kinder than the way cats kill mice.

No it wasn’t that we “felt that a cat on your property was annoying, so you caught him in a cage and then shot him at close range”. We had a feral cat that needed to be killed, so we caught him in a cage and shot him through the cage. If you had any personal experience at all, you would know that there is no way you could take a conscious cat out of the cage safely. Same thing for a vet. Another quick death, about as good as it gets. That cat (which I actually remember) haunted our old ‘farm dump’ killing baby rabbits. In the highly unlikely scenario that our local vet would agree to ‘neuter’ it (perhaps after shooting a dart through the cage), and that we would pay the fee, it would go on killing everything it could. And it's illegal here to release feral cats.

The nicest song birds here live on the ground – look up splendid blue wrens for images. They are also very vulnerable to fire. No of course there haven't "always been feral cats in your area". Australia had no virtually no native predators (until the dingo arrived in the north 12,000 years ago). Cats were introduced just over 150 years ago in this area, and the numbers are increased by city people dumping pets - that's why the new legislation is clamping down on home breeding. Australia has the highest rate of species extinction in the world, because the predators weren't here until relatively recently. That's why so many people here (including me) care so much.

I think many city-based ‘animal lovers’ have no real idea about how unkind animals are to each other – ‘nature red in tooth and claw’, to quote. When we kill animals we do it as quickly and painlessly as we can. That’s for all of them – many people seem to be highly selective about the animals they really care about.

Hope22 I never read that about Margarets neighbor torturing a cat to death like that. What a sick souless piece of garbage. Reminds me of my child abuser FIL who used to torture cats with his dad when he was a kid and brag about it as an adult. Then deny it when people said that it was sick and disgusting.

Just to add for frank if you use weed killers or pesticides they also contribute to the death of the song birds you love so much. I bet that kills more birds than cats combined. How many people use roundup or other products to kill weeds or deter pests in vegetable gardens etc.

Margaret - regarding your prior comments that may have initiated your receiving "awful" comments about your attitude to feral cats...as a reminder, you previously stated something to the effect of "trying to stir the pot" by sharing that your next door neighbor told you that he tied a cat to the back of his car and dragged it from behind the car as the car sped away while the fumes were coming out of the back.
Sorry, but that was horrifying to read - the description and thought of that was sickening, cruel and nothing short of disgusting and barbaric.

And in the same post, you added that you felt that a cat on your property was annoying, so you caught him in a cage and then shot him at close range.

So, I'm just wondering, what kind of response were you expecting?

...also, outdoor cats can sense danger, so perhaps it's the way that they're being received when you see them that cause them to become nocturnal.
It's just a thought ~

I agree with you that cats are best as indoor pets...it's not their fault that they were born outdoors, but they still deserve to be treated with kindness.

Not true about cats and song birds. I also live rural and we have stray and feral cats and have no shortage of birds on our property. If your observation was valid you would never have had any song birds on your property since I am sure there have always been feral cats in your area. Not just one cat a quarter a mile away that ate every song bird in the vicinity. Also agricultural farming is getting rid of song birds and they stop singing in june or so to take care of their offspring. Weather conditions also affect where song birds will go. You really should research it instead of letting your bias against cats.

Stray cats are a problem. Where there are cats there are often no song birds. At my rural home we used to have many colorful and beautiful song birds. A neighbor about a quarter mile away has a cat that roams my property. Now we do not have anymore birds. I would shoot it but cats are very sneaky and evasive.

When it comes to indoor/outdoor cats and feral cats, we would be ankle deep in mice if those cats were not around.

There are not enough hawks, owls, and foxes to control the mice population without having cats out there to help.

I remember reading about some cities that give feral cats shelter/food [plus neutering/spaying] as they help control the inner city rat populations.

This is a sad discussion. I have such a love for all animals that I can't stomach the thought of any animal no matter how pesty it might be being euthanized.

I am really pissed off about the people who adopted animals during the pandemic cause they were home more and then gave them up cause they were too much bother later. Don't get a pet cause it's a novelty. Don't get a pet if you can't afford to or can't be bothered to get it fixed. Don't get a pet if you can't afford the vet bills. Don't get a pet for your child thinking your child will take care of it and then get pissed off at the pet when little Johnny or little Suzie doesn't want to walk it or feed it.

Bob Barker said it right on every show. Have your pets spayed or neutered.

It is an interesting situation.

I wish everyone who owns a pet would spay or neuter them. That’s number one for me.

I don’t know how anyone else feels about the ASPCA commercials but I can’t bear to watch them. They are heartbreaking.

Here’s what I get upset about. The ASPCA claims to care about animals. I called to see if they could come help an injured feral cat that I saw. They responded by saying that they would come and get the cat to euthanize it. I was disappointed.

I have never tried to capture an injured cat. I didn’t know if it would attack out of fear.

Tricky indeed, Margaret. Here in the United States you can get massive division by saying one of three things.
Thing 1) pit bulls
Thing 2) feral cats
Things 3) masks.
Any one of those three will have us pulling the pitchforks out of the poop pile and aiming them at one another.
We do indeed have feral cat problems in the USA, more in some places than in others. And more "help for the problem" in some areas than in others. Trap, neuter, release programs abound in all big cities. Colonies are collected and treated for disease. But it goes on. So recently we thought perhaps the end of the world there would still be cockroaches? Got that up to cockroaches and Keith Richard, who seems immortal. Got that up to adding on Coyotes. Guess we can add feral cats.
They are a serious problem to song birds. Get a few rats. Spred disease and live short sad lives for the most part. As an animal lover I love em all. Dogs, cats, birds. But understand that feral cats are a massive problem. In the small country town where we built our little cabin after retirement there were 100s and 100s of them. And yes, the locals pretty much just eliminated them.
It's such a sad situation. People pick up small animals outside the grocery stores in our small towns, don't pay or neuter, dump them when they are pregnant. And there you go.

I've done some reading in the past about feral cat controls and the catch, fix and release programs seem to be fairly effective. The difficulty with any wildlife is controlling the people who seem to actively buck the trend by allowing their pets to breed and by feeding wild animals - everything from geese in parks to coyotes and deer in back yards. There was a recent report of a woman who was sitting with some friends outside of an assisted living being bitten bitten by a coyote that some neighbourhood fool had been trying to teach to be hand fed.

It's hard to know whose numbers on feral cats is accurate. Not sure it's a know-able thing. I read a spread of between 60 and 160 million unowned, outdoor wild cats.

When I was a freshman at U of Miami in 1977 there were feral cats living around campus even back then, so it's not a new thing. With few predators above them, and really good survival skills, their numbers will just keep growing. Often they live lives shortened by exposure to disease (mange, parasites/worms) and the perils of traffic and weather and other cats (infected abscesses from cat-on-cat injuries). I read their average lifespan is 5 years. They don't need unfixed outdoor "owned" cats to help build their population... it is growing exponentially on its own at this point.

Any imbalance in nature is a problem. I was just in FL this past Aug-Sept where I played tennis at a small club. There were 8 or more feral cats hanging out there on the courts waiting for the owner to feed them. Once they left the food, the raccoon moved in on it. Here in metro suburban MN I can't say I see them so obviously but I'm sure they are there. The winters help keep their numbers down. They like to warm themselves on the engine blocks of parked cars.

Should the population be managed? I think it depends on what the local impact is and whether it is a thing that can actually be done. They are not easy to catch. Since the encroachment of coyotes in our area and I wonder if they are prey. Cats are pretty wily, fast (also nocturnal), can climb trees and hide in small spaces. Good luck "managing" them.

There are extra characters in the link, if you eliminate everything before the second http it will work.

Feral cats are a problem the world over but I imagine the unique fauna in OZ makes them especially problematic. I grew up in the country and a year rarely went by without some number of strays showing up, often kittens dumped by the farm gate. A number of cities and towns have passed bylaws making it illegal to feed ferals. Its controversial.
(Margaret - farmers here know better than to admit to killing nuisance wildlife unless they know their audience well)

I think the biggest problem in the US is people not getting their animals fixed. Here we have a lot of dumbasses who think breeding animals is a great way to make money. So backyard breeders are a big problem as are the many ignorant fools who think all female dogs should have at least one litter of puppies or the ones who don't believe a male dog should be neutered.

Then there are people who have indoor/outdoor cats who are not fixed. Or people who adopt a kitten and then dump it outside when the novelty wears off. The coyotes kill many of the dumped cats or they get attacked by dogs or other cats or people. Then there's the starvation and disease and poisoned food that's left out for them by people. It's a sad and miserable life for many cats and former housemate can become fetal. But in the US there are people who work to get ferel's they feed fixed to stop the issue in its tracks. Unfortunately the selfish and irresponsible pet owners outweigh those who want to help and do the right thing so its a never ending cycle for rescues and shelters. Millions of healthy adult cats and dogs are killed every year because there are too many. And even no kill shelters have a work around for this to.

As for cats killing birds. I get people think birds are great but many people don't realize that birds are not just sweet little things that chirp and flit from branch to branch. They are also territorial and other breeds will intentionally attack other birds. Blue jays are the worst.

Cats are not the only predator of birds. Owls, raccoons, hawks, snakes, squirrels and other animals also kill birds. I dont think many people realize that as I never hear anyone complaining about these creatures killing birds.

Not to mention most birds only have a 2 year lifespan due to starvation, parasites, cats, other birds and disease in general. All living things have control mechanisms in place to keep the populations down. Its just a reality of life. For wild animals there is only so many resources to go around and things get pretty ugly out there when populations are overly abundant.