When is a rep. payee needed for social security?

Kind of going thru a similar situation and considering the rep payee process. Hopefully everything is going smoothly for you. Sorry for your loss :(

1) The bank teller was wrong. If the checks are going into NH brother's account, there is no need for there to be a rep. payee. I'm not sure why a bank teller would even make it their business to suggest that. He needs to go back and get a manager to help him with the POA, at another branch, if need be.

2) Social Security was the single worst entity I had to deal with. Do not call them until you absolutely have to. I had a cut-and-dried case: my mother was declared legally incompetent by a judge, and I was her guardian. Caveat: I called a couple of local offices on the mid-Atlantic coast (you may have better luck elsewhere), not the national line, and this was when they were still working from home because of COVID. The national line had much longer hold times, but I still had to wait 30–40 minutes before getting someone at the local offices.

I called repeatedly for 4 *months*. I'd done my research and I was always polite. I had clerks:

-Give me wrong info (the phone clerks are not well versed in complicated matters, but they'll tell you something wrong before they'll admit it).
-Hang up on me.
-Put me on hold "for a second," leave me on hold 1.5 hours, and then hang up.
-Say "call back tomorrow" and hang up.
-Go on an unhinged rant for five minutes that "your mother IS NOT PROPERTY" after I referred to myself as a "guardian of the person and property." How silly of me to use the legal term given to me by the court.
-Tell me someone would call me the next day at 11 am (never happened).
-Tell me she (#1) would have the right form mailed to me (never happened).
-Tell me she (#2) would have the right form mailed to me, but to stay on the line until she was sure it could be done. Turns out the right form was *not* one a phone clerk could initiate. But she did tell me the number code of the form.
-Tell me, when I asked if there was a higher up I could speak to, "We work from home; there is no supervisor." And then hang up.

What finally worked was finding a random form online using the number code I'd gotten. It's not available on the SSA site. It didn't even have the right year on it. I don't recommend this, especially if in-person appointments are open again. But as a Hail Mary pass, I filled it out and sent it with my certified court documents. I mailed it with Signature Confirmation. To my shock, I quickly got a letter back that I'd been made rep. payee.

It was another fiasco once she died. I called the national line to inform them of the death before another payment was issued. After an hour and a half on hold, I finally got a clerk who asked me a bunch of questions. She put me on hold for "just a moment." A half hour later the line disconnected. Then the funeral home told me they would handle notification, and they evidently did, but 3 weeks later a new payment was issued anyway and I had to deal with returning it.

All of this is to say: avoid this if you can. Talk to a branch manager. If payments are going into a functional account, do not upset that apple cart.

newbiewife: Perhaps you should retain an elder law attorney.

Elder Law Attorney should be able to help you all.

The lesson here: Do not believe the first "expert" you talk to. A bank teller is not an expert in elder law, just like an elder law attorney is not an expert in dementia, just like a neurologist is not an expert in Medicare planning. Spend as much time as possible researching the rules before approaching a mega-agency like Social Security. The other lesson: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The SS check should be going directly into the account of the recipient with direct deposit and then whoever has POA can pay the bills out of that account. If it isn't set up that way now then take the forms to get it set up to the recipient and have him sign them. I know... many will say he isn't competent to sign but I'm sorry, sometimes you have to cut corners to get stuff done. Put the form in front of him and have him sign it. I have had to cut alot of corners and find ways around the system in order to wrestle control of my father's finances, even with DPOA, but it is all being done to protect him and get his bills paid. Do what you have to do. My two cents.

I am responding to Luta here concerning the NH becoming payee. Luta said:

"I personally wouldn't allow the NH anywhere near the finances or access to autopay" 

There is no autopay involved. I did not set up Moms account so the NH could pull the money or did I set up auto pay. As Moms POA I filled out a form allowing the NH to contact SS to become Moms payee. Once that was granted, it was between SS and the NH. I assume that the Nursing home had an acct set up that SS was given routing info to because Moms account was never effected. This worked great once Mom was on Medicaid. The NH received Mom SS on the same date each month and Medicaid paid their share. I was out of the loop. If NH had problems getting their last SS payment, that was between them and SS. Once Mom passed and I collected her belongings, never heard from the NH again.

When the person you are caring for is no longer able to manage their money

This is what happened to my mom

To bad advice wasn't sought before this process started.

The bank was out of line. Rep payee was not needed with DPOA.

They will decide whatever they decide but, they don't have the legal authority to declare anyone incompetent. Only a judge can do that.

It is a good idea to get all the paperwork updated asap, you just don't know what tomorrow holds.

Newbiewife, I am sorry for your loss. May you find happiness going forward and may The Lord give you strength, peace and comfort for this new season.

Just have the Nursing Home become payee. Then there is no responsibility for writing checks. The NH should have paperwork to do this.

newbiewife,

I am sorry for your loss.

So, apart from hassles with the SSA and their process of determination, the other signed docus should be fine; these are different competency requirements.

For a Will, the standard is 'testamentary capacity': Understanding the instrument one is signing as being a Will; Knowing one's bounty: (approx value of all estate assets incl. accounts, investments, properties, vehicles, valuables, income); Who would be the natural beneficiary(ies) without a Will in place, eg: children and so on (this line of 'intestacy order' for inheritance is in each state's probate statutes) and he hasn't any kids so he needs to understand who would be in line; And to whom the testator wishes his bounty to go upon his death.

Most states and the attorneys who work in probate and estates, place a pretty low bar on it and as long as a person has a basic grasp, the Will is valid. Be sure to have the notary piece done properly, ie: the location on the ss part at top is the State and county signed in, and have a self-proving affidavit signed by 2 witnesses, not among the beneficiaries. If an attorney has any questions or if anyone anticipates a challenge, it's best to simply have the signing filmed and kept, just in case.

The bar is also low for DPOA and Medical POA & Advance Directives. I'd have the NH LSWs do those because they're highly motivated to have them in place for care and payment and have the forms available. May have to nudge them to also get the self-proving affidavit done to make that legal in all US states.

The motor impairment of Parkinson's Disease does not mean he's incompetent to sign these documents. It's just the SSA and whether it lands on the desk of some gatekeeper type person who wants to feel more powerful than they are. So, best to send them the BIMS or other cognition evaluations done by the NH on a quarterly basis; the NHs use these for categorizing residents and their payment scales for daily billing purposes and they are on file (my Mom's is sent to me as her POA, now G&C). So long as their documentation shows him as competent, the SSA can hardly argue otherwise, having never met the dear man.

My story is one of being named by my parents as alternate to one another in all matters and both fell ill with Covid 2 yrs ago; we lost my Dad and Mom was in a transitional care unit while recovering. Since they were up for their last summer in my state (to be with me, my daughter and the granddaughters) for part of the year and they lived in another state, Mom ended up a resident in that same care home. I couldn't have her living with us, however great the love we share.

It's been a lot to contend with and I'd just gotten the last property sold when my long-estranged-from-all narcissist of a sibling stuck her nose in and filed to have Mom adjudicated incompetent and to have a corporation assigned as her Guardian and another corp. as the Conservator of her estate. Oh, ish.

Would I like to take a tire iron...? That answer is, 'Yes.' She did the same thing to my brother 20 yrs ago, tried to overturn his Will by having him deemed incompetent posthumously; it didn't work. She's an NPD and just can't stand being disinherited and left out of estate planning; she considers herself entitled like some Karen on steroids. I just wrote the body of the Objection to get her motives into the probate file and have now begun the process of all that added paperwork.

Pls don't be worried that the previously signed docus are made invalid by some SSA desk jockey. Just keep your documentation in order and ask the NH to do their part; they only want to be paid and the cognition piece can be easily accomplished with a couple simple tests, likely already in his file. With PD, they should be tracking his cognitive and physical function in justifying their billing for services. If you have concerns, have him evaled by an Elder Care team and say why: To enable an attentive family member to manage his affairs.

Thanks Alva. From what it has on the social security website, it sounds as though they can make the determination if a person is legally competent without the person themselves requesting someone to be rep payee. And unlike POA, it doesn't sound as though the person involved even has to agree to having someone be rep payee (presumably if the person is not legally competent, they can't agree to anything). You use the phrase "well adult," so I guess it depends on the definition of well! I did a lot of leg work and record keeping when my husband was POA, so we were well aware of all it entails, including (especially) Medicaid eligibility and applying for Medicaid. As you say, being POA is not something to wish for. Being a rep payee sounds like a close second, with requirement for annual report and accounting, etc. Since all income but the small personal needs allowance is being paid to the NH, the accounting shouldn't be difficult if it comes to that.

SSA doesn't accept POA for direct access. Very concise, if anyone besides the individual needs SSA access on their behalf, a rep payee is needed.

And from experience, it is much easier, more efficient and less time consuming to pre-designate which is available.

If there is no current or future need to ever work with SSA on behalf of someone else, one shouldn't need a rep payee.

I would have him go to SS. First of all he cannot be Rep payee for a well adult without that adult attending and requesting. Secondly there is no reason to need this unless the money is going into the account and the POA wants to change the account and automatic deposit. I never had to become Rep Payee for my brother. I was POA on some accounts and Trustee of Trust on others and his SS went into his trust account and I wrote all checks out on this account. I cannot imagine why he would need rep payee. He should go directly to the SS office to deal with this. By the By I had to wait three hours for the person who could deal with rep payee to show in the SS office as one serves the entire city of San Francisco, and its offices. Worse was waiting on the phone when I had to deal with IRS or SS. I will say, anyone who wants to make someone's life miserable should, hee hee , make them POA.