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My father came from a family of origin that had no boundaries and would aggressively butt into their children's, grandchildren's, and great-grandchildren's lives. My father and I had a falling out because he made our relationship conditional on me caring for his parents and my mom's parents. These were sexist, verbally abusive, emotionally manipulative, grandparents from whom I kept a distance as I got older. My father became more progressive gender-wise as I grew up, but when the hands-on grandparent care started, he fell into his old family dynamics. My mom didn't intervene much because she wanted to save their marriage. My father's siblings are all divorced because that was the only way for their spouses to set boundaries with their in-laws. Then, in my 20s, my father would become uncomfortable with me wearing short track shorts and sports tanks (normal girl attire I grew up wearing). He said he was uncomfortable with women's bodies. And every time, I wore makeup or modest tanks or well-fitted work clothing, he would turn around and avoid eye contact. I felt betrayed because I came to trust him and saw him change his views on gender during my childhood, and then, he reverted to his old ways during the grandparent caregiving, when he was trying to accommodate them and make sure they lived out their years in peace. He would insist that I observe the religious mourning rituals for my grandparents, but I couldn't because they were either verbally abusive, never accepted me for who I was, or we just never had a relationship to begin with. I feel that my father neglected my needs. We gradually stopped talking over the years. My parents never met the new friends I made in my 20s, they weren't invited to my grad school graduation, they never met my husband, they weren't at my wedding, and they never met my kids. I've been in therapy for years, and finally accepted it. I spent most of my 20s after the estrangement being angry, but then I accepted it. I focused on the ways that I survived without my parents and family, instead of on the anger. And I learned to accept the pain, I guess when your parents die, it lessons but there's always a twinge of sadness on holidays. I realize that my parents were limited people who did the best they could. After the estrangement, there were times I didn't have enough to eat or didn't have a bed to sleep on, but I survived by myself, on my own. I learned to build a life for myself. I have a successful career, a great house, a wonderful husband who treats me like an equal, and a son (12) and daughter (11) whom I am raising in an equal way. We live about 30 minutes away, but I've never seen my parents in years. I've been teaching both my son and daughter how to cook and do some minor fixing around the house. Both are really into sports. I've taught my son to respect women. I've taught my daughter to be proud of her gender and body. We have a childless elderly couple living next door that have served as surrogate grandparents, and my friends have been great aunts and uncles. My husband's family is close-knit, and my kids are a part of their lives. I think my dad saw some photos on a social media account I have and found my phone number online this summer. He said he wants to meet his grandchildren before his death (he's in his early 70s, Mom in her 60s). He asked that I please dress modestly without tank tops and makeup. He also asked that my daughter not wear shorts above the knee and the sports tank tops that girls her age wear. There are no restrictions on my son's clothing. My dad told me that my grandparents are now dead, and he wants to keep the past in the past but not discuss it. He's seen his brother who's in his 80s spend his last years alone because he never re-married (caregiving consumed him). Dad doesn't want to die alone, and he said it would make him feel happy if I helped him with mowing the lawn and gardening. This brought back painful memories.

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It's a mother’s responsibility to raise and protect her children. Clearly, she fears her father will be a negative influence. I’m not seeing anything in her posts about how the grandfather’s presence will enrich all their lives.

These kids are in middle school, which is such an emotionally precarious stage. When they’re teens they may be ready to have input into this situation. When they’re young adults they can decide for themselves.

The father says he wants to meet the children and they must comply with his expectations. It will make him happy if she would come and perform tasks he could pay strangers to do.

Sounds like a bully who wants to exert his influence, not like a lonely man who’s interested in getting to know his progeny as the people they are.

Yes, we’re only hearing one side, and it’s possible the grandfather doesn’t have the social skills to express himself. But I’m inclined to go with a mother’s gut feelings on this.

If she chooses to try to reconcile, she can demand that her father respect her autonomy as an adult and parent.

She’s also within her rights to say no.
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FaroffDaughter: I am sorry that your father is a short sighted man. How very sad.
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He still thinks after all these years that he can police your and your daughter's attire? Do not allow him hear your children.
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That is really an awful situation to be in. Yu guys have problems that need to be addressed and only through grace and prayer will they family survive. One thing I can say without a doubt; you have to respect your parents as parent regardless of the bagged attached. They will always be your parents. Don't allow your situation with your parents overflow into the minds of your children. They have a right to decide if they want to be a part of their lives or not. God would not be pleased with this situation because you are not allowing your children to meet their grandparents regardless of the situation. Please do not let your parents die and they do not know there grandparents because of your situation. That will be a terrible price to pay when conferring with the Lord.

Please pray an honest and sincere prayer and ask God for deliverance for peace.
Please keep me posted.

Thanks so much and be blessed.
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Isthisrealyreal Oct 2021
Can you please give the Scripture that says you must have a relationship with your abuser and you must subject your children to the same?

Honoring your parents does not mean being abused and just accepting it.

When we grow up we leave our mother and father and become one with our spouse, we are no longer subject to our parents. Our spouse becomes our head.
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Hi FarOffDaughter,

You have gotten lots of good advice already and support concerning your desire to remain no-contact with your dad. I don't blame you BTW.

I just want to share something that might apply to your situation. My grandmother had my mother "out of wedlock" back when it was a shameful thing, and my mother's father remained out of the picture. She never knew him growing up but at some point as an adult she located him and met with him one time. She had no desire to start or have a relationship, she just wanted to meet him.

I tell you this because my mom has always been very private about the matter so much so that I don't know a single thing about him, not even his name. My mom totally dismissed her children's desire as we got older to know who is the guy that is our grandfather. She considered it HER private business, and case closed.

IF you decide to keep your children from meeting your parents, perhaps consider making/keeping a record of sorts so that one day IF they ever decide they want to know more about him/them you will have something to share with them. It's hard to just have this void in place of where a close relative should be. If nothing else for family health history.

Good luck, and congrats on creating a great life for yourself despite the (justified) estrangement from your parents.
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If your children were older or perhaps they are old enough I would say it was their choice whether to meet your father or not. We has a far less difficult decision over one of our parents and whether the children should be allowed to know the person, but ours were much younger and the rules were set from our side. Personally for your personal sanity and mental health I think you have to decide if you would regret not going to see your parents, but even if you decide to then make it a short no jobs visit. Your father's intentions are clear - you ARE going to look after them - to me this is a definite NO NO. So if you need a contact visit to avoid regret when they are gone fine, but only if you think you need it. Regarding your children you know them best, it doesn't sound like they need or are asking to see your parents, but maybe a family sit down and just ask is only fair to them. However if they say they do want to meet them (and you feel they would be safe), you still don't have to go if you don't want to. Take them, drop them off for an hour and pick them up. They can tell you afterwards whether they want to repeat the visit or not, and whether they were expected to do chores. You sound as though you have built a good life with your husband and his family and friends, look after yourself as number one in this - decide what you want/need and then think about anything else.
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Archaic oppressive traditions are lifesucking for women and celebratory for men.
What do you think my advice is? What would you say to you?
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Far off Daughter, I’ve just read your post replying to Burnt Caregiver, and it gets more and more bizarre. You say your grandparents are “Atheists. I don't know where these clothing beliefs come from”. And your father believes that if you don’t all think and behave in the same way “there's no family unity”.

I am still wondering if there is a lot of religious pressure going on that you don’t know about. Would it be worthwhile to see the head honcho of whatever religious sect is involved? Or if you have a religious belief yourself, involved your own pastor and see if they can both go head to head? Breaking up a family is not a great idea for most religious leaders (as opposed to cult leaders).

I’ve just read a book about growing up in the Scientology hierarchy, and I’m prepared to believe almost anything at the moment!
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That you, and your daughter, might dress modestly as a courtesy to your father is entirely acceptable. That he demands it as a requirement for meeting you or her is NOT. And he wants you to mow his lawn. You were right with that “no”!
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Stick to your guns. Protect your children and yourself from this man. You don't need to explain anything. His long list of requests and demands show that he has not changed or improved at all and that he sees no reason why he should change at all.

You also do not need to excuse them with the old "they did the best they could." Obviously, they did not. An effort to do the best one can includes questioning the way you grew up and wondering if you can improve on it. They did not do that and apparently felt no need to do so. You are the proof that a person does not need to repeat the mistakes of your parents and their lack of child-rearing skills. You chose to see and understand your parents shortcomings and improve for yourself and your children. It sounds like your father has learned very, very little. If you expose your children to him he will simply hurt them as he hurt you. Tell him no more phone calls. If he had called you with an apology when you were still in your 20's and an earnest effort to do better, that would have been different. I see nothing but grief if you go along with any of his requests.
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IMHO, Any contact (if any?) must be on your terms not his. Modest dress and lawn mowing seem innocuous yet they are the first steps to what can and will turn into decades of commitment on your part without compromise or acceptance on his part.
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You might tell him that to avoid conflict on the clothing and makeup, it might be better to just chat on the phone. You've already listed a number of issues you had to deal with after you left home, so avoid the big one...when they die. You moved on without applying all of the family rules to your own life and children. You already made that change in your life and stopped it from passing to another generation. Now maintain at least a conversation with them until the end. Not necessary to mow for them or do other jobs, however just like any neighbor or friend - if you knew for certain they needed something done and couldn't do it, hire a friend/contractor to do it for them if you think they can't afford it...if they have money give dad the name of a person who can come do it. Think of them as the old couple at the end of your street - you don't really know them, but could give them enough info to help themselves. At the end of their life, it won't come up as an issue of guilt. Your children will also see you extend the olive branch. As a note, you let yourself off the hook when you let others off the hook.
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"NO" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

You made a life without abuse, had therapy, are married with a family of your own. You did well.

If you cannot live with "NO", putting all doubts out of your mind when they pop up, please do not take your children to see them. They may never forget the cruel judgment, and the feelings you have worked through in therapy, and accepted, that says you never quite measured up.

You don't have to revisit painful memories. You can revisit therapy to reinforce your "NO".

"NO" is a very short word. Don't make me come back and ask you "What is it about "NO" that you just don't understand? It was your "NO", a very good decision.

Coming from our family to yours...we said "NO" and meant it.
We support your decision based on what you wrote here.
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Meeting your parents could be a fresh start for you and your family. Meeting your parents can also renew the worst of those relationships. I suggest you meet your parents without the rest of the family, maybe only your spouse if he wants to support you, to test the waters. If you find them and their behavior to remain problematic, you can decide to continue to shield your children. If you find that your parents' behavior is acceptable, you might have a short family gathering - maybe over a meal - to see how it goes.

If your parents are having trouble with yardwork, they may also have trouble with keeping up their home. It might be better to suggest that they move into a smaller place, like a condo, where they don't have to care for the grounds.
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This is sad… I agree, discuss this with your children. They may regret not having met their grandparents at some point in their life. I’m glad your in a good place but I’m all for forgiveness.
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my2cents Oct 2021
True. If the kids are old enough and mature enough to deal with the parents - let them decide if they would like to visit or talk to them. Definitely warn them about what parents might say about clothing or makeup and advise them to end the meeting, politely, and leave at whatever point they are not comfortable with the parents.
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I think "No" says everything that needs to be said.

Choices have consequences and I don't think your children need to be subjected to someone who is already judging them without ever meeting them. No good would come of this for your family. Protect them at all costs from this situation.
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Kind of a very sad story . A part of you still wants a relationship that is loving with him but I don’t know if that can happen - as far as the grand children go that could be healing for both parties involved .
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MargaretMcKen Oct 2021
It could be good for the grandchildren to have some personal experience about why their own parents fell out with the grands. Kids grow up questioning what they are told. For example, was my Dad really as bad as that? I wanted to find out for myself - that was my own experience, and yes he was just that bad! Letting the young people form their own views can be very supportive for the parents -that was my own experience in understanding more about my mother's issues!
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Just need to say one thing. My Maternal grands were gone. My Paternal ones lived in the same town. We, 4 of us, really had no relationship with my Grandmom other than getting picked up from her house after Sunday School since she was 7 houses down the Church. My grandfather visited every so often. I never thought our relationship should be any different. I didn't miss having a relationship. Maybe because the relationship my parents were good? I don't think the kids will miss something they never had. I think more harm would be done meeting him and then finding out the are being used to get to their Mom. Also, 11/12 year olds do not need someone criticizing them. This is the age girls start to become aware of themselves. That they are growing and bodies changing.
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HI "Far" - so I was hesitating writing my thoughts because it may differ a bit than the majority of those who have commented thus far. But here goes...

It sounds like you're still at odds with yourself on this - or may need more validation in completely ghosting your parents forever. It's your decision - there are different ways to consider, but in the end, whatever brings you more peace is fine.

You must be living in a year-round warm climate because short track shorts seems like such an important issue, no? I was a bit confused - Your daughter can be proud of her gender and body and still understand that in some situations (like being in an office), that a person may need to modify their attire for that day. I don't see it as such a deal-breaker, though - they can still be who they are. For me, I'm mindful of what I decide to wear depending on who I'm with or where I'm going and it's not difficult to be flexible depending on the situation - I'm aware of who I am regardless so it's not important to me.

You don't live with your parents anymore - it's many years later and you can decide to test the waters or just leave them out of your life - hopefully, the relationship has other parts to it - or you'll find out that it doesn't.

Do you miss having a relationship with your mother - because she's still involved, correct? Your father sounds very modest - probably religious and this might just be his beliefs. But now, your grandparents are no longer in the picture....no care taking for them...and if you wanted, you can set very strong boundaries - and just test it. You can write him an email or letter - really specifying how you're wavering on re-entering them into your life because of the past and even considering it, they need to be more flexible and open to meeting you half way. Such as, you'll be wearing make-up as most women do (maybe you can modify it and wear lighter make-up when seeing him)...and just take the short shorts off the list when visiting him - how about jeans or pants ... just enforce it in the letter.

It didn't seem like there was much else - other than advising your parents that any responsibilities - such as mowing the lawn or care taking is off the table - if they want to be in your life and your children's life - then it's no responsibilities for you- no tasks - just to be with you.

If it's not acceptable, then you can feel even better about going your own way. It's ultimately your decision, but I think all relations are give and take and in the end, it really comes down to how much you want them in your life - if at all.
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lealonnie1 Oct 2021
Hopeforhelp: I wrote almost the exact same response but then deleted it. In the Muslim religion/custom, women (not men) are expected to cover their skin with hijabs and burkas which is way more restrictive than what the father is requesting. When I went to Turkey, in order to visit the Hagia Sophia mosque, I had to cover my head and no shorts or sleeveless tops were permitted; we were told that beforehand & expected to comply, which was fine. Same thing in Greece when visiting the Meteora Monasteries; then I had to wear a long wrap skirt that was provided at the entrance

I was also wondering if the OPs mother tried to contact her over the years or just followed the husband's lead in general?

To the OP; you seem like you might want to test the waters and try a visit with your folks? I could be wrong, but you writing this post suggests you might be open to it, and to have your kids meet their grandparents. Compromise would be key, of course, and keeping the shorts and tank tops at home for the visit out of respect for dad's feelings. I've always dressed modestly in front of my parents; it felt awkward NOT to, actually. My father was an old school Italian immigrant with old fashioned beliefs about many things, including extended family obligations. I broke that mold when I made it clear I would not be moving them in with me, and set them both up in IL, then AL, and my mother is now living in Memory Care. I would definitely NOT agree to do chores for him though; he can easily hire a lawn service! If he wants to just meet up for a visit and to introduce himself to his grandchildren, that's one thing; but to expect and force his care wishes upon you is another.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck.
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Another voice agreeing with the others. He hasn't bothered to meet his Grandchildren who live half an hour away? He wants to meet them now if they'll mow his lawn & dress a specific way? He wants you to dress a certain way? No, no, no, no.

Your heart was in the right place when you went no contact with him. You, your children and your husband are fine and happy.
Why drag in unnecessary drama to their lives?

Your father has already shown you who he is.
Continue believing it and ~ stay true to yourself and your family.
Enjoy the happy, lovely life you've made for yourselves.
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No there's no reason to reconcile. "Hi daughter I realized that I might have lost access to free lawn service and someone to clean my house and change my diaper in my old age so how about you cover your body and your daughter's body up and come over". Holy cow, no. And you're not "depriving him" of grandchildren, who is owed someone elses children?? And ditto for "depriving" your kids of grandparents. All families are different who the heck goes "I had a loving family but I suffered from not having a grandparent".

I might be off base here and I do not mean to offend or trigger. Skip this next paragraph if my concerns about sexual issues don't apply or will make you unhappy to read.

My "someone has sexual issues" alarm bells are ringing pretty loudly. Won't even look at you if you're wearing properly fitted clothes? That's either crazy manipulative or he knows he can't handle it. Honor the fact that at least he realizes he has sexual issues by not putting temptation in his path in the form of your daughter. Yuck.
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Good on you for raising your children to be wonderful people.
You have worked hard at making your life what it is today.
Don't let your father distract you.
Stay on course.
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If your parents are in their early 60s and 70s, they could easily live another 30+ years. Don't get sucked into caregiving that will surely diminish your own middle age and possibly golden years. Caregivers with wonderful parents become beaten down with years of caregiving. Just say NO.
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There’s no question that you should not get involved again with your father. You have just written us an epistle telling us all the reasons why. Tell him it’s too late and not to contact you again. This man has not changed and will never change. Leave him behind as you have been and walk away because it’s apparent that this uncaring egomaniac is still trying to impose restrictions on your relationship even though he’s the beggar. Don’t fall for it!
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To those who say the children should have a chance to have a relationship with this grandfather if they want one, I would say that there is a good chance that Grandpa would start using his grandchildren to put pressure on their mother to take care of his needs. They would simply be a means to an end.
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
If there's a chance that the grandfather may try to manipulate the kids to get to the parent, then the parent needs to be monitoring any meeting or contact between their kids and their parents. That can't ever be allowed.
People often forget that it's very common for grandparents to have a different relationship with the grandkids then they ever had with their own kids.
My mother is proof of this. She was an abusive bully to me my entire life. She's an awesome grandmother and her grandkids think she's the best thing since sliced bread.
Should they have missed out on having a wonderful grandmother because she treated me like crap and still does?
No. They shouldn't miss out. FaroffDaughter's kids shouldn't have to miss out either.
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Be careful. He wants you to be his caretaker. He could have tried to contact you for years but chose not too. Early 70's is not old at all. So who is mowing the lawn now?
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
velbowpat,

You could be right about the father setting things up now for future caregiving needs.
That's probably part of why he wants a family reunion. A hard NO on the caregiving or possibility of it.
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My answer would be "No. Sorry. No" as well.
I see no reason to disrupt your life and confuse your children. Your father chose his life and lived his life as he chose to live it. Hopefully he has friends. If not he will have the resources of the state that someone without children also has.
I would not bring chaos into my peaceful life. It is not your job to make your father happy. It never was. You recognized that. Don't lose what you already fought so hard to gain.
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How about if your kids who are 11 and 12 decide if whether or not they want to meet their grandparents. Explain to them that they have cultural and religious beliefs about clothing and make-up for women and girls.
What are your parents cultural/religious beliefs that make them so strict about what girls and women should wear? This too should be explained to your kids beforehand. Then let them decide if they want to meet their grandparents. You don't have to agree to start helping your parents around they house or yard, or doing anything else or them.
Your kids may only want to meet them once. Who knows? Let them be the ones who decide though.
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shuffle Oct 2021
Nah, I think they are too young to realize who/what they are meeting.
They should not be making that decision. Children are easily influenced, he is not the kind of adult I would want my children meeting. The way he was to his own daughter is the way he will be to his granddaughter. Why put her through that.
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Could you possibly set up a Zoom or Skype call with your dad and you and your children? That way, they can meet and dad won't be able to see much more than their faces, thus combating his dress code.
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shuffle Oct 2021
why does she have to expose her children to this kind of man? I still say no :)
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Sounds like you're in a good place. Let no one interupt your family dynamics unless you want them to. If i we're you I'd block him from my phone and you certainly need to tighten down your social media. Don't be an invite to any unwanteds.
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