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Honestly, does my head in.... He's got so much in the bank that there's no way he'd ever spend it. Hes the only person who saves money on a pension! Not millions but I'd say £50K in the bank - but to him its like monopoly money.


His house is looking "tired". Threadbare carpets etc. Furniture literally 100 years old in parts. I've tried and tried to get him to spend money but he won't. Keeping it "just in case" and won't spend it because he doesn't want to "get caught out" as he calls it. His other excuse is he worked hard for the money, was very poor when he was younger so doesn't want to waste it.


I've tried to explain that if he ever couldn't cope and had to go into a home the government would take this money so there's no need to save it at all.


My brother is getting married soon. Not got much money. Dad asked me if he should give him some cash - yeh great Dad good idea and suggested he give him a £1000 or so. Nope - gave him £50.


Honestly, I can see what's going to happen. His health is getting worse and worse, he's going to go into a home, get told its £1000 a week, his savings are going to be used for this and, no exaggeration it will finish him off because he'll be so distraught that his money is wasted.


I must have had this conversation 20 times with him.... His answer "I'll manage, I won't go into a home".

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Paul; with regard to not wanting to use taxis or public transport, my mom was much the same way after she turned 87. She gave up her check book. Asked me to come once a week to set up her meds. Refused all sort of useful suggestions like taking a taxi.

It took us an embarrassingly long time to find out that she had developed Mild Cognitive Impairment. It was later discovered that she'd had a stroke and was left with the reasoning skills of a 5 year old.

All of this "pay attention to me" behavior was actually extreme anxiety akin to what one would see in a small child.

Have you spoke to dad's doc yet?
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Paul, one of the drawbacks of the NHS is that it has engendered a feeling in us all that absolutely everything to do with healthcare should be free of charge at the point of delivery. Including transport to and from healthcare related sites, and parking, and meals, and dressings, and phones, and on-site entertainment...

Hospital parking charges unite the country more effectively than any social policy unit could ever dream of.

So your father is by no means alone in resenting the idea that he should have to pay for a taxi.

And yes although there is a tremendous effort to provide patient transport, mainly through volunteer drivers... how can I put it without feeling disloyal? The services often leave a lot to be desired. Your father has probably already sat on a horrible chair in a draught for hours on end waiting for his driver to herd up a couple of other patients - last seen vanishing into the black hole known as X-Ray & Imaging - before finally taking him home via Aberystwyth.

Stop arguing with him. Take a leaf out of his book and delegate, ruthlessly. And if you don't think it's fair to delegate to family members who aren't much younger than he is, delegate to service providers instead.

If you were feeling evil, you could mention to the cousin that you're sure your father will want to pay for the petrol.
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paulfoel123 Nov 30, 2018
You're dead right there. Dad has also got the attitude that you go to the GP or doc, and they sort you out there and then. Give you a tablet and thats it. If there are reasons why its not that simple then he doesn't need to worry about it its the GPs job to sort it out for him.

Yes and with the travel costs too. I worked all my life and paid taxes. he says (Luckily in wales these days parking is now free).

And yes patient transport is not briliant but in the past I've given him a choice.

1) Patient transport.
2) Taxi - cost £10 and much quicker.

In the past he has tried his preferred option (and you will know the geography here) which is I get train back from Gloucester (Where I used to work) to Newport, drive from Newport to Pontypridd, pick him up and drive from Pontypridd to Llantrisant. Oh and did I mention I've got my own IT consultancy and get paid on a "per day" basis (i.e no holiday pay) so for half a day, in all honesty, we're talking several £100.

You can see why I've offered MANY times to pay for the taxi for him!

The thing with his cousin is quite funny. In the past his cousin has criticised me for not helping Dad as much as he thought I should. (He did not know the full story!) Now hes been "roped in" he will get first hand experience of just how manipulative Dad can be....
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He'll struggle on for years and make everyone's life a misery...

Are you happy with that?

Look. There are no victims, there are only volunteers. If you do not want your father to go on making your life a misery, get a grip.

Your father depends on your continual attention to him in his current situation. Withdraw your attention, and refer him to his local authority instead. He is entitled to a needs assessment, his social care team will discuss the budget with him, you do not need to get involved. If the social care team decide he's fine where and as he is, take their word for it.

This business of his money being wasted...

Your father must be aware, I'm sure all of his peers regularly point out, that he can't take it with him. He doesn't seem to find the idea of giving it away to his sons particularly enticing. So... what does he think the money is for?

The housing association will be able to tell you what happens about sales. You can look them up online, all the information will be there.

H'm. Come to think of it, housing associations are often linked to housing services, too; and if the house is falling into disrepair that's their asset that's deteriorating. It shouldn't be too difficult to get them to take an interest.

If you're having the same conversation with your father twenty times over without result you have already gone mad, QED, because repeating an action and expecting a different result is one defining symptom of madness.

Take your focus off your father's shortcomings and put it instead on potentially productive courses of action that you can take without his input.
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paulfoel123 Nov 29, 2018
Ha Ha CM - I like your replies.... :-)

Time to look into these things I guess as you say. When I have time....

With the money its weird. He is just obsessed with not spending it. Its not there for a reason - he just does not want to waste it hes told me many times. As you say, giving it away is not something he likes doing either. Hes protective of it - wont give brother much because "he'll waste it". He must know it'll get taken off him but he puts his head in his sand.

I mentioned the santa visit with my 5 year old - £2 it cost! Dad moaned and whinged telling me it was a "racket to get money off you" and "I should stop wasting my money". Jeez - shes 5, loved it and got chocolates off santa. (I earned more than £2 writing this reply - dont tell my client who are paying me lol).
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Paul; Replying to your "knowing my dad, what will happen":

I can't tell you how often we did this with mom, or how often I've heard people on these forum proclaim that their parents would give up and die in a facility.

"Mother would NEVER bear that". "My parents would DIE in a nursing home". "People who go to facilities die within months of admittance"

I guess some do. Those who are very old and very ill when they enter.

My mother lived for nearly two years in a lovely Independent Living Facility, blossoming as she had NEVER done in her life. She spent 4 1/2 years in a nursing home, getting her extensive medical needs looked after.

When we admitted her, we thought she had maybe 6 weeks, post stroke, post broken hip repair.

DON'T let your father make you miserable. You have the power to prevent that. If you think his needs are hooey, don't attend to them. Work with his doctor on getting an evaluation to convince of his REAL needs and as CM says, go look at those facilities yourself. Then work on making his going HIS idea.
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paulfoel123 Nov 29, 2018
All spot on Barb and of course you're dead right....

Just some days I don't have the energy honestly to constantly be fighting with him over something. Its like a game with him to try and get me to do stuff for him.

Hes not got his cousin taking him to every single hospital appointment. Cousin is 4 years younger than him! I'd previously sorted out patient transport but he moaned about it.

I've pretty much no I'm not taking you and taking time off work when you can get patient transport or get a taxi (which he refuses).

Hes happy now because hes roped someone in to do things for him. I honestly believe Dad gets a kick out of knowing hes got someone doing something for him. Its weird.
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Not really relevant, just a bad memory prompted by Paul’s reply. My first FIL in Essex with dementia was unsafe (leaving gas jets on etc). His care was then literally in the local Workhouse. It had been ‘repurposed’ but everyone of his age knew it as the old Workhouse. One more thing to break MIL’s heart.
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Countrymouse Nov 27, 2018
Apartments in The Old Workhouse probably go for about £450K upwards nowadays!

Poor MIL. But I expect it was the shame of "locking him away" at all that was her main worry.
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Re: visiting care homes - Did you go yourself and see the place beforehand? There's nothing stopping you doing that, and making friends with the manager who can then help you with getting him to come and have a look for himself.

You must remember your father is in no way unusual in his anxieties or any other of his feelings, and you are nothing like alone in the challenges you're facing with him.

Once you've met some of the older people and their families who *have* got through the maze and found an answer everybody's happy with - or as happy as it gets, anyway - you will feel so much more positive.

The alternatives are:
You go on banging your head against a brick wall until you bleed.
You harden your heart and your father struggles on until he's carried into a nursing home with no choice in the matter whatsoever and takes what he's given.

The second is a valid option, by the way. The first you already know is pretty much unbearable.
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paulfoel123 Nov 28, 2018
Knowing my Dad I know what will happen.

- He'll struggle on for years and make everyones life a misery.
- He'll get forced into a nursing home in the end.
- It'll finally sink in that his money needs to be used.
- This will hit him hard and he'll give up and go.

Which is why, at times, I pray that my Dads time to go is before it gets to this. Obviously, I dont want Dad to go but he deals so badly with illness at the moment, I hope hes one of these people who goes on their terms. He would hate years of being really ill.
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I don't know who sold him that property scheme. They were designed to help first time buyers get a foot on the property ladder, I can't see what earthly good it was to him - just ties up his savings in a property he doesn't own outright and still has to pay rent on and which will now be harder to sell because he either has to have the freeholder's agreement or sell it to the freeholder... daft. It's with a housing association, is it?

Never mind.

So does his 50K in the bank include his estimated house equity, or is that as well?

One of the services that local authorities provide is an assessment from a finance officer. This includes a review of assets and income with a view to explaining benefits entitlements and thresholds. A nice person comes to your house and goes through it with you, it's not scary and they're not selling you anything. Well! - obviously they're not selling you anything! They're trying to discourage you from buying anything you don't need.

In any case, if he gets upset when you talk to him about money then don't do it - there are plenty of trustworthy people you can call on if these conversations need to be had.

I don't suppose there's a snowflake's chance of getting him to do LPAs?
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paulfoel123 Nov 28, 2018
Hi - Well it was years ago so mortgage part was paid off years ago. He'd just got divorced and was close to early retirement (he was 58 - only 8 years older than me now). He was stubborn back then and, at first, refused to get a mortgage because he "didnt want to get in debt". It was looking like he planned to rent somewhere rock bottom cheap just to save money.

It did work out well because he ended up with a really nice flat close to town center. But yeh appreciate that its not so good now. Yes correct housing association owe the rest.

Like you said, no idea how you'd sell a share if and when it comes to that...

Hes got about 50K savings plus whatever equity in the flat.

LPA - tried no chance at all.....
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Dear Paul, let’s face it, your father is a mean old git. But look on the bright side – that 100 year old furniture in Old South Wales might polish up really well. Even the WWII utility stuff looks pretty good these days. Yours again, Margaret
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My father banks his whole paycheck every week (yes he is working at 83).
Lives on about 10k in cash for the year. He has about 2 million in the bank.

I am waiting for the board of health or aps to show up at their house.
I dont think he has spent anything on the house in 20 years.

There is not a thing I can do until they injure themselves
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paulfoel123 Nov 27, 2018
Wow. Thats way worse....
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If he can exist in this environment without health issues then I would leave it alone. If the home becomes a hazard then you should become more concerned. Would you rather have him spending money from the companies that take advantage of the elderly and filling the house with needless stuff you would then have to get rid of. Before my mother had to enter AL she did a combination of both. Nothing was fixed, she had a useless cleaning person once a month and she was buying items from Publishers Clearing House because she was going to become one of their big winners if she continued to deal with them in her mind so I had to deal with a dirty apartment and lots of useless stuff and she never did win any of those prizes supposedly promised and it was a huge hassle to get them to close her account. We all have crosses to bear. If his house doesn't reek and you can move through it you are somewhat fortunate. But I still do feel for you and understand the frustration and hope it doesn't detoriate.
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paulfoel123 Nov 27, 2018
House is filthy dirty and dangerous to be honest...
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Who are you to decide how Dad spends his money? And no it does not sound like he thinks it is Monopoly Money, he knows it is real, he worked hard to save it and it could not be easily replaced.

If his money goes to paying for his care at some point in the future, isn't that an appropriate use of it?
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paulfoel123 Nov 27, 2018
Well he has no idea how much he has. He just knows there is money there and he doesnt want to spend it.

Thats just the point. If it was for care then brilliant but its not. If he ever needs to pay for care, he would honestly freak out to know he had to pay for it. No exagerration it would finish him off the stress of knowing he had to spend his money.

Thats what concerns me. I dont want or need the money but I don't want to see him struggling because hes got an idea in his head that he doesnt want to spend anything when, if things go badly, it could be taken off him anyway.

I know a lot of you are in the USA. In the UK, theres a limit - £23K I think or about that. Have more than that and you pay for care yourself, have less and the government pays. There is no advantage to holding onto money because it could end up getting taken off you anyway.
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£50 for his son's wedding present is a bit shabby. On the other hand... what did he give you and your wife? And, is this your brother's first marriage?

Other than that, his belongings are his belongings. They might look like tat to you, but he likes them and they are his old friends. Leave them alone. If the carpet is becoming a trip hazard you can either take the bull by the horns, rip it out without permission and replace it yourself (you won't make any friends, and you'll have to pay for it yourself); or you can turn it or rearrange the furniture; or you can weld it to the floor with Duck tape.

Are you making any progress on identifying possible care home placements for him?
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paulfoel123 Nov 27, 2018
CM - it was 22 years ago for us can't remember! Brothers 2nd marriage....

Care home. Yes been looking. Tried to get him to visit with me - hes not dull and had a MASSIVE mood when he worked it out. Anyone would think I was trying to send him to a victorian workhouse.

Unfortunately, in his head, care homes are where families send their parents when they don't want to help them and where people go to die.
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He doesn't own his house, does he? - or did he buy it through Right To Buy?
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paulfoel123 Nov 27, 2018
He part-owns it. Bought it under a scheme where he had a mortgage for 40% then pays rent on the rest. Mortgage is paid off so hes paying pro-rata rent now.
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I spent nearly $1,000,000 on 5 1/2 years of my mother’s care, because it was HER MONEY.

I would have preferred that she had made her house prettier or more comfortable while she could have enjoyed it, but fact was, she didn’t.

Her money, just the same, and she (and I) were Blessed by the fact that she had the best NH care I could provide.
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Paul; My mom was born into a poor family in the US in 1923. Her father was killed by a car in 1925; her older brother had to leave High School to support the family. They were living in straightened circumstances BEFORE the Great Depression.

My parents were frugal to a fault. Lived well below their means. Taught us not to expect any inheritance (a very useful way to grow up, I recommend it highly).

My mother also saved money while on a pension. No, she didn't refurbish her home. We WERE able to convince her to hire a cleaning service and a lawn service, simply by telling her that we, her children and inlaws were NOT available to do those tasks.

Your father sounds very much like a man of his generation. And 50K pounds is hardly "loaded".

Stop arguing. If he wants to give someone a small, rather than a lavish gift, that's his look out.

Tell him "no, I can't possibly do that" when he "expects" something. He's saying "no" to you, yes?

Why can't you say "no" to your father? Do you think that means you don't love him?

Do you let your children walk all over you?
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