Unsafe discharge? Need help asap.

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Unsafe discharge? Need help asap.

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Its me again...My grandfather (92 yr old w documented dementia) was taken from his ALF by the paramedics as he caused a scene and said he was going to kill himself. If you have read my previous posts you are probably not surprised. He was taken to the VA hospital not under Baker Act but under the admitting diagnosis of 'confusion/dementia'. When I called the hospital to find out what was going on they refused to speak to me even though I have DPOA and medical POA. They said he was alert and oriented so they have to respect his wishes for them not to talk to me. The nurse did tell me that he is requesting to be re evaluated for competency. This blows my mind as they are the hospital who deemed him a danger to himself and others and HELPED me place him in an ALF in the first place. My sister went there as a favor to me and he told her he plans to sell HIS house (Its in both of our names) and move to another state. She told the doctor that all of the claims he has made are false and that he obvioulsly is confabulating. They told her its a gray area with veterans. They cant force him to go back to the ALF if he doesnt want to and can release him to his home if he chooses. I live in this home with my family. I own half of this home. He has threatened me and my family on numerous occasions, called APS and the police with false claims, and I cannot take care of him. I WILL NOT take care of him after all this. He has caused my health to become an issue with all these problems he has caused and I cannot trust him or care for him anymore. I am scared that just stating unsafe discharge wont be enough. Has anyone gone through this or able to give me some advice?

Alzheimer's & Dementia Dementia Behaviors Elder Law

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Oh I remember feeling the way you feel right now! It was constant fear, worry, anxiety, guilt, anger. Maybe having an elder law attorney can help through this? We weren’t dealing with the VA but because my mother in law hadn’t been declared incompetent or incapacitated yet (even though she truly was! It was bad) we had no choice but to bring her home. The next time something like this happened, we had our attorney and she kept telling us to adamantly and firmly tell the hospital no on discharge. And that the hospital will guilt trip you, and manipulate you to come get them. Our attorney said they are not allowed to just roll an elderly on the street and leave them. My father in law ended up giving in because they told him she was already discharged and dressed. So the hospital got their way and forced this and it was SUCH and unsafe situation because she kept getting hurt at home, threatening, abusive…. What started the whole thing was she threatened to shoot whoever came through her door and when the police came, she held a knife to her throat. And they still discharged her. But we had the knowledge and advice from our attorney and petitioned for guardianship and the courts sent evaluators out and declared her incapacitated. It was only after guardianship that we were able to get her somewhere safer. Guardianship is a big choice to make, it’s a lot of work. You’ll have to decide if you are able to take that on, or is it better if the state does. Don’t feel bad or guilty about which ever it is you’ll have to do. Dads life has already been lived, you have the whole rest of your life to live and it’s important to take care of yourself first. Good luck honey

editing to add: upon advice from our attorney we kept a log of ALL unsafe or unreasonable things she did. And then told us to ex parte bakeract her. The bakeract was the only thing to do because what qualifies for that is: danger to themself or someone else. She wasn’t necessarily a major mental health case, as her actions thoughts and behaviors were affecting her mentally because of dementia. And be a of the lack of resources for elderly that have obvious dementia and unsafe conditions and are still deemed with capacity and competency, we had to have the courts require a hospital visit (sometimes it was a mental hospital) to keep them safe. I don’t believe in bakeracting someone with dementia- they don’t know what they’re doing. But I believed in making sure my mother in law was safe, fed, and taken care of. We do what we have to do to keep someone safe.

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Reply to JooFroo

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I also want to add- there is a difference to competency and capacity. My mother in law passed every single competency test with flying colors. A competency evaluation is basically an exam for elementary kids. Spell world backwards, remember these 5 words, start at 98 and subtract 7, no keep subtracting by 7 until I say you can stop. Draw hands on a clock to say 5:23, do you know who you are, where you are, the president, today’s date and time. If they can answer those, they are “alert and oriented” or competent. my mother in law passed with flying colors and still can. People can be completely out of their mind, and still be alert and competent. And dementia patients will lose memory of recent things first, so the elementary knowledge will be probably one of the last memories to leave. Now, capacity evaluations determine rational thought, can they really take care of themselves and can they basically be alone safely. My mother in law cannot. She can pass a competency exam because she still retains all her knowledge from college and being an RN for decades. However, she thinks okay to take her meds against how they’re supposed to be taken and have sent her to the hospital many times. She believes things that are not real, and refuses to use a walker knowing that she absolutely does not have the capability to walk without it and falls and gets hurt every time. Just because someone can pass a test with 2+2 does not necessarily mean that it’s okay to cook a shoe on to stove to have for dinner. Your father most likely needs a mental capacity test. What you’re going through is so hard! I’m here to tell you that it all does eventually end. There is an end in sight, and even though it feels like a forever thing- it’s not. Once you’re able to get a lawyer or have the state take over, it does get better. Boundaries are a must or you’ll go insane. Self care is a must and taking a break is a must. I really hope you find your answer and soon!

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From VA.gov -- "The execution by a claimant of a POA under State law has no effect for the purposes of prosecuting a VA claim. The individual with POA under State law is not authorized, based on the State appointment, to engage in VA representation." so let me first get that out of the way for you and any others hoping that a POA means much at the VA...https://tinyurl.com/yc63jp5k POA means very little in terms of federal organizations.

I would engage an attorney to file for an emergency non-contact order on behalf of your children. Then inform the VA facility that because he is under a no-contact order for your family, they cannot release him to the family home because the ALF IS HIS HOME. Then the attorney could advise further on how to untangle the mess between his mental state and his co-ownership of the house.

You might (stressing the MIGHT), try contacting a non-VA associated hospital and have them request a hospital to hospital transfer using the POA. Financially it might be worse but...something to think about.

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Reply to MyNameIsTrouble

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You need to call someone there to explain that he already has been deemed a danger to himself and others. That the house he says he will go to is half owned by you and you live in it. That you will not allow him to live there because he is a threat to your family. That releasing him, at this point, anywhere else other than a LTC is an unsafe discharge. Then listbthe things he cannot do for himself. The State is going to need to take over his care, because you are washing you hands of him. Your mental being is being effected.

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Reply to JoAnn29

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Laura, when someone has threatened you and your family, I'm not sure you have to give "fair notice." Also, since trying to talk to the doctor and nurse isn't working, take your complaint to the highest authority at that VA facility - the director or whatever the title is. I'd demand an immediate assessment right away if I were you.

I'm not understanding what they're referring to as a "gray area" for vets. My husband is a veteran who has been extensively evaluated by the VA in the past year. A "gray area" has never been mentioned (other than in reference to his brain, which is losing gray matter fast). Husband is cognitively impaired and both the VA and the memory care facilities have confirmed this independently.

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Reply to Fawnby

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Because POAs are individual state items, the federal government don't usually adhere to them. So VA and SSA -- many banks too - don't accept POA as representation. Saying it is a gray area is the polite way of saying "we're not sure what to tell you".

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Would it be possible to make a deal with him and tell him if he agrees to spend another 6 months in AL, you will get the house sold and split the profit. Never a good idea to co-own a home with anyone other than a spouse. Too many things can go wrong. Untangle yourself from this financial mess.

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Reply to lkdrymom

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As you know, if you co-own a home with anyone that person can demand the sale of the asset and division of the property and asset. You would get one half the proceeds of the sale. That's IF doctors say he is competent.
It is complicated legally, so he had BETTER be competent, that's for dang certain. He can't sell that house without legal procedures before listing it.

If he is going to pass his exam then he will pass his exam.
There is ZERO to do about that but resign your POA which you can do with a legally designated COMPETENT person.

At the point that he is documented as competent to make his own decisions you need to disengage. It wasn't really wise to buy a home with him. He can force the sale but AGAIN that's very COMPLICATED paperwork. Truth is, if he's coming HOME you need to force sale YOURSELF and get out of there into a rental.

I am sorry. Law is the law. He is either competent or not and that's up to doctors.
Your POA is no good if he withdraws it as a "competent person".

I wish you luck, but you are right, this is a total MESS, and no, it isn't an unsafe discharge.
You can try to get guardianship it you have an extra 10 to 20K laying around, knowing you likely will lose. Courts are loath to take a citizen's rights from them even if they are minimally competent, as you can imagine.

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Reply to AlvaDeer

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Thanks for your advise. I always appreciate it. I guess I am concerned as he does have dementia, cannot do a lot of the things needed to take care of himself ( cannot drive, cannot do meds, struggles with hygeine, cant walk without a walker and has been hospitalized at least 8 times in the last year)
I am happy to force sale and never speak to him again, but in the interim I am not sure what to do. We cannot cohabitate anymore since he has threatened myself and my family but it would be a major burden to leave the home without fair notice. I have an entire house to move. His stuff is at the ALF he was living at.
I just cant see how the hospital can not take ALL things into consideration including what the ALF told them (he is cognitively impaired and unable to take care of himself, has very abusive outbursts and is suicidal)

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Unsafe discharge? Need help asap.

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