Do I argue with Mother with dementia?

HelpingHelen, welcome to the forums!

Of course you are having difficulty adjusting to the new normal for your mother. It is heartbreaking. How could it be anything but difficult? And it is hard to break the habit of reasoning with adults, even after the adults are no longer able to reason.

Assisted living may be good for both of you, Do realize that Mom will still be a fall risk and they will be even less able to keep her in her recliner than you are. So don't consider it for that reason, but all the activities available for her there may be more stimulating than staying at home. And you may function better visiting as her loving daughter, instead of doing the hands-on caregiving. I think you should seriously consider a care center of some kind. Start investigating what is available and building up reasonable expectations.

Ativan, or any other drug, may have results different than intended. Treating dementia is very much trial-and-try-again in getting the drugs right (if there are correct drugs for any particular person.) My husband did very well on drugs for various symptoms. I asked his neurologist why and the answer was, "We don't know!" They would love to have some way of predicting who will do well on which drugs. Until they do, it is just a matter of trying them.

About Seroquel: That was one of the drugs my husband did extremely well on. In fact it is probably the drug that allowed me to keep him home with me for 10 years, because it enabled him (and hence me) to sleep through the night. Yes, the general recommendation on this is that it should not be used for elderly dementia patients. But many respected and knowledgeable dementia specialists prescribe it anyway (and watch the results carefully). It is even on the widely-used list of drugs to try for Lewy Body Dementia, created by neurologist Brad Boeve. So the doctor suggesting it for you mother is not a quack. This drug does not work for everyone with dementia. Nearly everyone in my dementia caregiver support group has tried it for their loved ones. Some have remarkable success, as we did, and for others it even made things worse. (The "worse" corrected itself when the discontinued the drug.) You really won't know if it will help your mother unless you try it. To give some perspective on this, the usual starting dose for dementia is 12 to 25 mg. That may be increased if the patient tolerates it. My husband was on 100 mg for nine+ years. Compare that to my brother's dose for bi-polar disorder -- he is on 800 mg a day.

For my husband (and many others) Seroquel was very sedating. He couldn't even walk within 20 minutes of taking it. But I simply learned to give it to him in the bedroom, after he was ready for bed. And that effect wore off in about 3 hours. If he had to get up in the night he could handle it just fine.

Seroquel might be awesome for your mother, or it might be (temporarily) disastrous. My advice to you is to work with a doctor you trust, discuss your concerns with him or her, and then follow their suggestions.

Jude: Talking about dead people is not fantastic.

Helping Helen, Please try to get your Mother into a respite care program. They specialize in Alzheimer and dementia patients and they have daycare programs. You need a break from everything and maybe you can get yourself into a caregivers group. When you have the responsibility of caring for a love one who is no longer the person you remember it is very stressful. I hope that you will find some help for you mother and yourself.

I also have been having great difficulty dealing with the dementia that has affected my mother. I am new to posting on this board. I can no longer reason with her, but I still find myself trying. She has lived with me for two years, and when she tells me she does not "like it here", and that she wants to "get out of here", I realize it is the disease, but I take it personally. She is a fall risk and refuses to sit in her recliner. I will tell her to stay put, and she will agree, and I no sooner turn my back and she is attempting to get out of the chair. This is the most challenging time for me, and I am seriously considering an assisted living facility. She has been on Ativan, but I believe it is having the opposite effect. The doctor has ordered Seroquel, and after 1 dose I have decided against it after reading that it should not be given to elderly with dementia. Thanks for listening. Any advice would be appreciated.

smcbeth1...yes, just agree; it will make your life a lot easier. At this point you are only causing anxiety for yourself. STOP and just go with it. If you don't, you will only drive yourself nuts!

Thanklessjob, your story is heartbreaking. Is your mom on meds for her paranoia and anger?

smcbeth1, I don't think I understand your situation. Are you concerned that your husband has memory problems? Or are you concerned that he is lying to you and didn't really go to lunch with a friend? I think you mention your husband's mobility issues in your profile. Does he also have dementia?

IF he has dementia, then what on earth is the point in arguing about where he ate lunch? He was safely out with a friend, giving you a little respite, why not celebrate that instead of getting into a snit?
"Did you have a good time, dear?"
"I guess so. I like Larry. I don't remember where we went but I think we had chicken."
"Oh. Then it is a good thing I'm not planning chicken for dinner. We are having BLT and hashbrowns and root beer floats."
"Umm ... I don't like BLTs."
"Oh. Well you used to like them. I'll make myself a BLT but you can have a grilled cheese sandwich. You can decide then if you want the hashbrowns and float."
"OK"

There is certainly no point in arguing about where he ate or whether he's always liked what you planned for dinner. None. It is counterproductive and mean-spirited. IF he has dementia, rejecting his inability to reason and trying to force him to remember what he can't remember or use logic that he can't is just cruel. I don't think you'd be here if you were a cruel person, but that is the outcome of your insistence on being "right."

He is supposed to the the crazy one. Not you. So, yes, that is kind of comic. But try to get a hold of yourself, before it stops being funny.

(This all assumes he has dementia. If that is not the case, I apologize for not understanding your post.)

I find my situation sad, ironic, and comic. Comic? Yes. Because I'm such an idiot so many times. I have what must be a deep insecurity. I HAVE TO BE RIGHT!! I'm working on it. But last week my husband went out with a friend for lunch. When he returned, I asked what he had for lunch. He couldn't remember. Ok. Where did you go? Doesn't remember. Some chicken place east of town. I say, where is that? I don't remember it. I don't think there is one. Then he gets all insistant. Then it devolves into an argument. Me: well, I'm driving out there to see the chicken restaurant you say you went to, because there isn't one. Etc. CRAZY on my part. I know I'm supposed to say "oh" to the chicken restaurant that I know doesn't exist. Grrrr. Help me know when to agree and when not to. Like the previous question, should we always just agree?

K so mom is in asst living with DEMINSIA and mu sister is in the hospital dad is 83. I fricken Try my hardest to drive to everyone's sickness taking my nervous , confused ,depressed dad around. My mom
Is mean deminsia I try tomdo
That follow her in her conversation then anmfriend will
Come
In and she'll be mean...
"What ARE YOU
Doing here!" "Get that smug off
Your face" your fat and ugly. I get sooo
Pissed.
My dad runs outside the room
And hides and leaves me in there. He asked
Me
Every 10
Mon did you call
Mom is
She ok!? He either wants to go
There or
Hospital!!!!!! What about him
And I? I
Never pay attention to
My husband, don't clean out house,
Forget
To pay bills. I've
Been taking care of my family for
25 years even had to
Move
Across
The street from mom and dads.
Sis
Is sick but NEVER HELPS. I'm
Pushed to
My limit. I scheduled a
Boat ride for me my husband and d ad
Yestereday . We just got there
And my 25 year
Old
Newphew with no drivers
License or job calls
And says my sister will
Be discharged
In 2
Hours....
The boat won't return for two
Hours now dad
Wants
To go
Back
To the hospital. I WAS PISSED. Not one day!!!!!!!
I told my dad to pick her up. I went to bed after
Screaming my feelings! It's always on me. What about my life? I
Love my family like
I said financially, feeding them, shopping for presents from each of thrm
Which is dumb Cuz why did a birthday if it's at my house I bought all the presents
From everyone ( EVERY HOLIDAY). I'm venting. I really have such a big heart
But I'm
Having a big problem..... Maybe I'm loosing it. You all are treasures as she on in your message. Please teach me patients. I'm totally losing it. Aloha and good look to all
And mahalo for your insights.

I have been visiting an elderly woman who is 86, blind with macular degeneration and in a nursing home. I have known her for several years and she has always been sharp and had a great memory (better than mine sometimes). She just started with dementia and she tells me the most fantastic things. She has had in her room a dead dog, injured cat, her deceased mother and father and more recently her deceased sister, 2 ex-husbands and a dead boyfriend. She worries about having room for all these people and what she is going to feed them. I used to try to talk to her and reason with her and it only caused her anxiety. She has moments of lucidity but they are becoming less and less. I spoke to the psychologist that sees her once a week and she told me to try to re-direct her but I should not challenge her delusions. It is hard, but I think it's best. It is so difficult to see this change in her. She has a marginally involved family so I am really the only one that visits her and cares for her. I would hate to loose that connection, so although it is difficult to go along with her belief that all these dead people are coming to visit, I think it would be worse to challenge her. Best wishes to all of us who are involved with anyone with dementia or Alzheimers.

Thanklessjob, you're probably going to get a lot of hugs after your heart-rending message. It brought tears to my eyes. In spite of my mother's irrational behavior, she has never been hateful towards me or my brothers. Negative and angry at times, yes, but never hateful. That would be so hard to deal with....

Dementia twists things in people's minds. It sounds as if your mother has regrets and other issues with her own life that she is projecting onto you, her surrogate ego. I'm not a psychologist, but the accusation of incest raises a red flag, that she may have been the victim of such and harbors a subconscious self-loathing that is now being expressed in the only way her mind knows how. Just keep loving her and know that it is not you she hates, but her own inner demons, and pray that she finds peace before leaving this life.

I'm another one struggling with this problem. Sometimes I can't hold my tongue. I find it almost impossible to hear her allegations of me abusing her and not say something to defend myself. Our visits are cut short due to this problem. I'm not a saint and don't have endless patience. I'm a nurse and I understand what Alzheimer's does to the brain but I'm human too. It is practically impossible to separate the person who WAS from the person who IS now. My brain just can't seem to kick into another gear when I hear her voice or see her. I pray for patience.

I just put my (92 yr. old-moderate stage (Level 5-6) Alzheimer's) mom into memory care/assisted living last week. The dementia has gotten much worse with confusion, paranoia, anger and hallucinations in the last 3 months.
She has turned against me for some unknown reason. I see hate in her eyes when she looks at me. She told everyone that I threw her on the floor and stole her pain medication, that I've stolen all her money, made reference of incest, that I've lied to her about everything and that I've verbally abused her. She pulls away from me if I try to hold her elbow when walking, throws my arm off her if I try to hug or touch her and won't carry on a conversation on the phone for more than 50 seconds. :(
Funny thing is...she loves my husband (who's name escapes her memory but she'll confide in him ("I have 2 million dollars in the bank but don't tell her (me) about it"!) Oh, I wish!
I had to trick her to get her into assisted living/memory care. I'm not sorry because things had become unmanageable at the senior apartments, according to the other residents and management. She wouldn't have gone if I'd told her the truth. Her hygiene had deteriorated horribly but she'd say she bathed every other day. She really needed assistance and supervision. May God abundantly bless her caregivers!

Last Saturday we brought her furniture to the facility. She physically attacked me. We're going this Sunday and hubby called the place to ask if they would medicate her with Ativan before we get there. (Maybe if I took an Ativan also, it may help our visit, ya think?) She's always been a stubborn and stand offish person who always got her way. This is amplified in dementia.

This rotten disease turns the affected against the helpers. It is a loose/loose situation with a long, continual deterioration, then death as the final, hurtful blow.
I pray that I will spare my only son from this living hell. Maybe Robin Williams was right in ending his life before the dementia began.

It is so heart renching when you hear those words. And worse for the person who is trying to make sense of things. Logic isn't something the dementia brain can do after a point. You would like an author named Jolene Brackey. Her stories and suggestions give some ideas and rationale about the person who has the disease. A person with heart disease who has an enlarged heart, can't do the things they would like to do because of fatigue, fluid in their system and others. With someone who has the brain disease, their brain does get dehydrated and the tangles and hardness makes it do difficult for them. The normal ways they would cope are many times gone. I am relieved to know your Mom is in a safe place with the beginnings of treatment. We all want to make sense for them and sometimes we can just hold a hand or say how much you care about them and can't wait for them to find what they need. The begging they can do means they know you care about them. I sure share that feeling of being helpless. I know I provide a hand and a hug and some stories of things past that give my Mom better things to think about and sometimes enough distraction that I get a story from her or a smile.

This question reminded me of my daughter as very small child, when she threw
a tantrum about wanting to go to Sunday School on a Thursday, and I couldn't convince her that it wasn't Sunday. Some years later, I mentioned the incident to her, and her reply: You should have given me a cracker and some juice and it would have been fine. My MIL in her last days would insist it was the wrong day. What I should have done is asked what she usually did on that day, and followed that cue. Similarly, asking someone who wants to "go home" what they like best about going home, or what they want to do there. In other words, try to get past the impossible part to the real reason behind the request.

At age 65, I'm afraid the only maturing occurring with baby brother is graying hair and other signs of aging! It is truly sad when someone gets to this point in life and has not found a path of wisdom or inner peace. He is his own worst enemy.

The baby brother will mature, but quite possibly not soon enough.

The notion that dementia sufferers forget about the negativity and move on while we are still stewing may be false. They might not remember a particular argument or blow-up, but deep in their soul they remember how the person makes them feel. I am the only daughter and I have three younger brothers, each of us with completely different personalities.

I tend to be the "explainer" thinking I can persuade Mom to grasp reality if I paint a detailed enough picture. Sometimes I get so frustrated that it takes the shape of an argument in spite of my intentions, but for the most part my mother likes having me around and gets upset when I have to leave. (I live 3000 miles away and care for her in her home for 2 to 3 months each year.)

The oldest of the boys is adventurous, a lot of fun, and has a great sense of humor. He spends some time with Mom in her home and sometimes brings her to his home a couple 100 miles away. He keeps her entertained and doesn't even try to bring her back to reality unless reality involves a medical appointment or a hygiene issue. She always wants him to come back and even imagines that he is at her house.

The middle son is a bachelor and the strong, silent type. While he never confronts Mom about anything, he also is not much of a companion. When he comes to her house to care for her for awhile he keeps to himself and usually busies himself fixing things around the house.

Baby brother is the problem. He blows up at every little thing---and I mean Every. Little. Thing. He loses his temper at Mom and raises his voice at her continually. Although Mom gushes about how wonderful he is and how much he does for her, when it comes time for her to go to his house she balks at the idea. He makes her unhappy with his negativity and yelling. She may not remember the specific incidents, but she remembers the bad feelings.

So that long-winded revelation was intended to point out that they DO store those memories and feelings, and the best thing we can do is make sure that they are pleasant, loving ones.

It could be that a low dose anti-anxiety med, like diazepam COULD help.

We have the same problem here, Frances2. Sometimes we tell her it's late or remind her she's already got her PJ's on, so we'll talk about it tomorrow. Or we'll say it's too cold or too rainy outside, and she better wait until tomorrow. Sometimes we ask her "Where's home?" Most of the time she can't tell us (although at times she spouts off her old address growing up in Minneapolis) so my husband just tells her we can't give her a ride home if we don't know the address. (If she tells us her old address in Minneapolis, then we tell her she's in Ohio, not Minneapolis, and that would be too far of a drive.) Other times I'll point out that her BR furniture and clothes are all here, and she'll have to wait until her 2 sons can help move them to her new home. I know, it seems like it is a constant struggle. Sometimes we just distract her by offering her some pop or a snack, whatever. We try to vary it a little bit though, because if we say the same thing every time she seems to catch on.

Hope that helps!

Lori

Say something like "oh my that is scary" ask her to start naming objects around her. One might "click" with her and help her realize she is home

You guys have given me great advice and I really appreciate it. What should I say, ( instead of saying, "You ARE home") when she says she's scared, in a motel all alone, and wants me to take her home?

France's2 it is better to go with Demensia and Alzheimer's sufferers and not to contradict or argue with Them. We must greet Their anger with kindness. Remember Demensia and Al/s sufferers have NO concept of time, eg : the other day I was putting out the ashes in the garden when a Neighbour called in to discuss the Rugby World Cup for 10 minutes. As a full time Carer to Mom I had been there all day every day, except for that 10 minutes. Later that evening My Neice Deborah phoned Her Nana and all I could hear was AH JOHN JOE HE'S HOPELESS, HE HAS BEEN MISSING ALL DAY, HONESTLY I DONT KNOW WHERE HE IS HALF THE TIME??? Do I contradict, or argue ? Nope just let it roll You see it's the illness. We get on famously well. Mom is 2 1/2 years into Al/s and I can see She's on Her last journey, I'm just a Companion accompanying Mom through this journey, keeping Her safe, comfortable, and warm, like Our Mother's did for Us throughout Our entire Lives.

I took my father out of the nursing facilty and put my life on hold to take care of him. He was, at first, more comfortable at home. Is the dementia permenanet, or do they slip in and out of it? I cocooned him the best I could. Played music and radio shows from the 40's and tried to take him to happier periods in his life. At times he thought i was his late brother, at other times he thought I was his father, who passed when he was just six, in 1933. I generally went along with it. As I said if he was in a bad place, he used to think he had been kidnapped amongst other things, music from his childhood helped dramatically. He used to ask where his late wife was- and I would say she is at the shops and will be back soon.

Hi there. I unfortunately do not have much advice as I am currently going through the same thing with my mum. I have found arguing doesn't help but the frustration you feel just makes you want to argue. All I can say is you are not alone with not knowing what to do I feel for you and all of us who are going though this. Remember to take care of yourself as we'll and also remember later on she will not recall what happened and you are the one worn out with the arguing. Try and stay calm. Take care

Arguing only makes matters worse. Now that these Fiduciary laws are in place it can be a problem if outsiders do not know your family dynamics such as you and your mom arguing. Adult Protective Services can step in if complaints are made about the arguing. Another guardian or Power of Attorney could be appointed in your place. If I were you although she does not remember a lot of stuff I would get a third party to witness this argument and possibly offer some advice. Believe me like the good book said the world will grow colder and that is why we cannot argue with family. We have to have someone help us with our family that is another relative you can trust or all will be lost.

Why is she on Depakote? Is she epileptic or bi-polar or suffering from chronic migraine headaches? Depakote has improperly been used as a chemical restraint for nursing homes residents. It is directly associated with the mismanagement of medical care for the nation's elderly and is the subject of the second largest drug marketing settlement in US history: $1.6B in 2012. And the lawsuits are not over- another $9.25M settlement occured this month. It incapacitated my dear, late 89-year-old father to whom it was wrongly administered.

If Mom's state of mind and confusion is distressing to her at a particular moment, I try to explain and clarify the situation then immediately change the subject and distract her. If she is confused but not distressed, I try to "enter her world" as she can no longer be present in mine. An ongoing battle to keep her as calm and lucid as possible and not obsessing over whatever the issue of the day is. She will be admitted to a Memory Care center soon and I have requested a prn Xanax prescription for her, as I know it will be distressing for her and that I will receive MANY calls from her until she settles in (if she EVER does). I am bracing myself for "Why am I here? Cant I go home? Can I come to your house? Why are all these people so old?" etc, etc. But it is the best option for her and she will be well taken care of 24/7. Just the next step in caring for her and dealing with this awful disease. One day at a time.

arguing in people with dementia.....the sane person will not win. And even if the doctor put a patient on a pill to keep them calm when the family didn't want them. Then they (the family) needs to be with the patient 24/7 because these nurses/aids don't have all day to take care of one patient that is off the wall with paranoid/frantic behaviors. I understand we don't want our loved ones drugged, but also think of it this way, your family member in the facility must feel awful being in a frantic mood and could cause harm to themselves or others if not kept a little calmer. I thank God for the caregivers where my dad is, they have a couple of patients that can get very loud, disturbed and angry, can you imagine have 30 or 40 of these patients being this way (if they didn't give them a little something to help with the anxiety). The caregivers themselves would become patients. yes the patients get stuck in a loop, my dad was in one the other day with something to do with moving a can. I tried several times of changing subject, didn't work, I even pretended to move the can, but that didn't work either.

I so fully understand your walk because I am on the journey myself. I am the primary Caregiver for my husband(67) with dementia. Redirection is a recommended tactic, but I find it doesn't work with a strong willed person who was always in charge. Don't argue, simply because there's no reasoning. The best thing is to join their reality, use love, lots of patience ,prayer and meds. My husband takes anti-anxiety , antidepressant and antipsychotic and does his dance music at his daycare. The meds will definitely help your loved one and you will keep your sanity. Even with all this we just can't control everything, the disease will run its course. Best wishes to all as you journey.

The Alzheimer's Association has a 24/7 helpline with counselors who will speak with you about the challenges you are facing. They are wonderful.
The library has DVDs that explain Alzheimer's and how to cope. You might look on line to search pictures of the brain with Alzheimer's. Once you see how the brain has shrunk and that there are actual holes in key areas controlling, behavior, cognition, and executive functioning you will see that the person is not being obstinate or uncooperative on purpose. The individual no longer has the ability to behave or relate as yu and I do. Therefore, you need professional help to cope.