What are your thoughts on euthanasia in the medical field assisted suicide?

How bloody ridiculous. Oh let me look up the quality of carte ion this NH I need to send Mum to. Oh they kill a lot of people here - that'll be fine then. If there was systematic use of deadly drugs and the end of lfe care basically was euthanasia no NH would be in business. Total tosh

I left out the good doctor at one of the 5 hospitals and his entire staff. and one cna and about 2 nurses this was all at one hospital. the cna and another nurse were at one of the other 5. There were other staff at that same hospital that almost killed her. That is a lot of bad staff. It was hard to believe, like I mentioned it could have been some kind of big pharmacy business incentives or staff that would not treat their patients.It was easier to have them unconscious. That is a lame excuse for putting someone in so much danger. If you think this is all good then I would say that you are as bad as the rest of them.

The only thing I mentioned was liverpool pathway or death pathway as it was called. Hopefully they cleaned it up. Things need to be cleaned up here to in the USA as far as the treatment of elders goes. If it is happening in that many facilities something has to change. Maybe it is just our little backwards country towns here but I have heard these kind of stories from many across america even ones like my mom who are just simply elder with no healthcare problems just medical abuse from deadly sedatives.

Right.... There are undoubtedly; there have been undoubtedly; and there will again undoubtedly be, unscrupulous people who pinch, push, shout at, steal from and generally abuse the elderly. It has always been thus and despite ANY legislation they will always get through.... in exactly the same way that paedophiles get jobs near children. This is just the order of things and I can tell you that some care homes instal their own cctv to monitor but due to the intrusive nature of this it has not been successful because those staff who do want to be nasty know how to position themselves to behave in this manner.

We can never know what makes thes %^&$%&rds want to do this we just know they are out there. For this reason WE have to be vigilant, look for and deal IMMEDIATELY with any anomaly we see.

I have done that in hospitals, I have done that in respite homes, I have done that with my own doctor - it's simple, OK why is Mum having this, is there an alternative, what are the side effects we should be looking for. Can I see Mum's medical chart please.....why has this been given? How did she fall? I want to see a doctor now please....these are not difficult calls. Professionals are skilled people - they are not superhuman; they do make mistakes and we as relatives should always always check to make sure things go smoothly.

I will grant anyone that fact. What I won't grant is that there is some insidious plot, plan, systemic sickness, conspiracy, business incentive (utter tosh) that has some hidden agenda of killing elderly people for NO REAL GAIN. There are known ways of checking for this type of malpractice they are called autopsies (post mortems in the UK) and if you shout loud enough they will perform one. If poisoning IS found they WILL investigate.

When a loved one dies, you can ask the hospital to perform an autopsy. The hospital pathologists usually have no affection with the clinicians who treated the patient i.e. they are basically independent.

If the family prefers, a private pathologist can do the autopsy in the funeral home. It does not matter much whether the body has been embalmed first.

So if you suspect foul play then my big question is why didnt you demand an autopsy? And if you now feel bereft because the unthinkable did happen and MISTAKES were made, note I say mistakes not murder, then you MUST seek help.

HOWEVER angry upset empty you feel you cannot just across the board say that this was murder and that it was a deliberate ploy by some staff in some hospitals. I still think you are not in full possession of the facts and are unlikely to be given that an autopsy would have revealed any of the issues you are declaring to be true and you havent declared that an autopsy took place as far as I can see through your endless postings.

Flowgo, one thing I noticed throughout all your postings is that you are not listening to what others are saying. This is just going around and around in circles and you are constantly repeating yourself over and over. It's like you are desperately trying to find someone to agree with you 100%, and when you do find that one person, you are looking for a second person, a third person.

Time to take a break, please, take a deep breathe and focus on something else. Do some volunteer work to help you take your mind off of this, as this is not healthy for you.

I personally don't think its healthy to even continue reading these posts. Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Sorry but thats how I see this thread now. And yes I will take my own advice and discontinue reading this thread.

My fingers are still. I have just cleaned the mud off my boots once again.

Its ok, you don't have to try and figure out what happened in these 5 facilities. I know everyone, myself included would like to believe that situations like this do not happen. Unfortunately as I found out the hard way that is not always the case and corruption can happen as it did in these five facilities.

When such severe druggings take place over and over again so severe that my mom is forced to take and be tortured by drugs to the point of great harm and or death in 5 different facilities, then something is terribly and seriously wrong and it is time for a change.

If I can help just one person be aware of what can happen so they can protect their loved ones then that is be good enough for me.I know I have helped more than that already and that is what counts.

Then I was insane to go to five different hospitals and expect a different result of my mom to not be tortured by drugs to the point of great harm and death, yet I kept getting the same result that definitely was insanity. Good point Gershun

JudeThis was actual hospitals that this goes on in it is a little difficult to stop the druggings when mom is being forced and tricked into taking these sedatives.

As I mentioned before, it was so bad that I was getting threatened to have the security kick me out of the hospital when I literally stood between them and my mom trying to block and stop them from sedating my mom. If I did call the police 911 by the time the police come she would be drugged already.

I should have called anyways, if everyone called when their relative was forced to take deadly sedatives against their will and the families,then eventually this may get some attention.If this isn't corruption,then I don't know what you would consider corruption especially when this happens not one facility but 5.That is the true definition of corruption.

With this going on, I suggest we concentrate more on enforcing the laws of no euthanasia and keep it out of the medical field and definitely keep it out of the medical staffs hands.

jude What I would call an honest mistake is when the doctor tried this sedative on my mom. He used the right amount for her size. Ativan this is when he realized she can not take this drug.This was too much for her so he apologized cause he realized he made a mistake. I really appreciated his honesty, his true concern etc. I would say that this doctor actually learns from his mistakes

The others they were so bad that they did not even realize that they made a mistake, if they were even mistakes. They may have just not cared. Either way it is not safe. Forcing deadly drugs on someone, not just once is no mistake. What is the meaning behind that.Is that also what you would consider a mistake or just bad staff. I would say bad staff in 5 of these facilities not all of them but most all of them. The only true mistake I saw was the one by the doctor who had learned from his mistake and I m pretty sure he would have never repeated it on her again. That was the only true honest mistake I ever saw. I would call it foul play. It was not a natural death.

If I said anything to upset anyone I did not mean to. Writing about what happened to my mom is pretty unbearable, but worth it, if I can warn families that these kind of situations happen.

Hospital staff can and will bully patients and family of patients to the point of forcing the sedatives in one way or another.Not all hospital staff are like this, I often mention the good ones too.

however,since this can be such a problem, I can not see it to be reasonable for medical staff to have possession or be allowed to hand out euthanasia meds.It just would not be safe.I have mentioned bad staff cause there are medical staff that are very bad, as I found out.That does not mean that I am saying the caregivers here are bad. I know most of them are taking care of their parents or other family in their home and I consider that kind of care to be very thoughtful and caring.It is a very good deed when people take care of another human being.

What state do you live in flowgo?

I have gotten into endless battles with people about humane euthanasia for humans. Here is my stand and I believe heart and soul this is the right and only decision for anyone. First of all, no matter how difficult, the subject must be discussed openly and without battles pro or con. Everyone is going to die one day. We live in our bodies and while we are fully of sound mind, it is absolutely mandatory that we become willing to discuss this subject with family members, friends and doctors. Others must be aware of what the patient would want when the time comes. If the person truly believes and wants humane euthanasia, then it is their God given right. After all, God gave man free will and contrary to what so many people believe, I believe following through on one's personal choice will bring us closer to God faster. I am sure God will understand and love us anyway. To have someone make laws that tell me I cannot do what I feel is right and just for my mind, body and soul is just obscene in my eyes. Yes, we would all like to die peacefully in our sleep but that does not always happen. Therefore, we have the right to choose what should happen and when should the worst scenario occur. We, and we alone, should have the right to indicate our wishes and then have them carried out. Not to do this for suffering people is just horrific. There comes a point when there is no longer a tomorrow or any chance of improvement. Please let us go to our maker and be at peace.

Riley, if that's how you feel for yourself, feel free!

The trouble begins when your choice requires the participation of other people. You do not have a God-given right to demand that someone else kills you (though I understand that there are plenty of willing professionals around, as I expect you'll be relieved to know).

And the other trouble is, no man being an island, that your choice, by normalising euthanasia, impacts on others who may not be so assertive or so clear in their own minds about their wishes. You're very certain of what you want. Others aren't. Especially when they are frightened or in pain or, of course, demented.

The line in the sand is there to protect the extremely sick, the severely disabled, the very young, the very old, the socially vulnerable, from being murdered.

As far as I know, suicide is no longer a crime in Western society (although I assume it's still a mortal sin, not that I'd know). Those who wish to determine the time and place of their death are free to do so, especially in America where you retain the right to bear arms. Not keen? Then what you're asking for is not the right to die when you want to, but to die nicely, with the full assistance of the medical profession. Well, that too can be arranged: it's all a matter of timing, and money.

What you're asking for, too, is not only that it should be legal for you to head for the exit when you feel like it, but that society should approve of and in fact adopt your principles - in fact, you say as much. Well, I for one believe those principles in practice would have unintended consequences, and it's not myself I'm worrying about.

There is huge difference between keeping someone comfortable when they need such large doses of narcotics that their death is hastened to actually giving or providing those drugs with the deliberate intention of ending a life.
There is just too much room for malicious acts when assisted suicide is the norm.
There have to be exception of course. I am thinking of the nurse during hurricane Katrina who deliberately over dosed patients that that could not be moved from their nursing home to save them the agony of waiting for death by drowning.
Agree with everything CM has written.
The purpose of a DNR is to allow people the right to die when it is their time and everyone should consider this and advance directives long before they are close to needing those decisions made.
Neither my husband nor I want to be kept alive in a vegative state by artificial means but at the same time we also do not want someone to have the right to waltz in with a syringe full of euthanazia mixture and put us to sleep

Veronica,
Thank you for putting into words how I understand the euthanasia issue.
Many people might agree with you if they were better informed.
I agree with what you wrote.

I totally believe in humane euthasia - but the patient, while of l00% sound mind and fully aware, should make this decision - never at the end when they are frightened, confused and in pain. Every human should have the right to determine what will happen and when and under what conditions.
Why on earth would you want to keep alive a person who is totally mentally gone never again to recover, or in terrible pain, and the list goes on. If there is no possibility of a "tomorrow", then that person should have the right to be humanely euthanasized. I feel not to do to so is very selfish and totally ignores the peace and well-being for the patient. I stand by this belief no matter what. It is the only humane, decent thing to do.

I hope that when my days are painful and I don't want t to live that I will be able to take care of it myself. Living and not really living is so sad!!!

I would like to reply to the original question as opposed to the OP's personal experience which has been beaten like a dead horse. I believe my perspective is unique to this forum. I have worked in Veterinary Medicine for 15 years now. We are able to HUMANELY euthanize our 4 legged family members (I know not everyone feels that way about their pets). I have always wondered why we can't do this to our human family. Why do we have to drag out suffering and misery as long as possible? Of course I believe that what we should do with our loved one's medical treatment should be what they wanted when they were of sound mind. I am faced with caring for my elderly grandmother who has dementia, and she has declined so much in the last week I'm in a panic to find a home that will take her because I feel like she will fall at night when I'm sleeping. Her decline has also made me aware that she MAY be nearing her end. I know that she may get to where she can't swallow at all or even hold her head up- she's nearing this point now, all of a sudden. I don't want her to suffer and she doesn't want life support or CPR. (She made that clear decades ago and has a living will and DNR.)
To address the method of euthanasia: in animals we use a drug that is an overdose of Pentobarbital. It is also very common to first administer a dose of Propofol so the patient is asleep when the Pentobarb is given (this is particularly helpful if the patient has cardiac disease and it may take longer than desired for the entire dose of Pentobarb to complete the circulatory system and hit the brain where it takes effect, already being asleep ensures no consciousness of the process). When administered correctly (read: slow at first) the first effect of the Pentobarb is to remove all consciousness so the patient has no awareness and feels no pain. Then the heart and lung function stops. It takes a matter of seconds to complete the process. There is often some spasming and what is called agonal breaths due to lactate still in the muscles and electrical impulses still present, however we know that the patient is already brain dead and the heart has stopped. It is virtually the ONLY way a living thing can die painlessly and quickly. I have not only watched hundreds (thousands?) of animals die in ICU over the last 13 years that I've worked in ER/ICU but I have also watched my great-grandmother, grandmother, father, and close friend die. I am painfully aware that a "natural" death is 99% of the time really ugly- i.e. the person or animal SUFFERS. Why do we allow this? I believe it is because we are selfish and don't want to deal with our loved one leaving us for good. Why can't we- in accordance with our loved one's wishes- administer the same drugs we use in Vet Med to relieve suffering so they can go peacefully?

Because human ignorance believes only a higher power has the right to give life and take life. Humans forget that the higher power gave us a brain with intelligence to decide what is right and wrong and have compassion for all living creatures. If an individual decides they do not want to suffer at the time of a terminal illness, then their wishes should be respected and honored.

I believe that each person makes this choice.
Either they create a medical directive that says when to withhold medical intervention...or they don't, and they then let the medical profession work them over until the insurance runs dry.

But..even making no specific choice is a choice.

For myself...if there is not a chance for a recovery to regain quality of life..meaning some activity level....then let me go!

And...I live in Colorado...and yes, I do have the right to have medical intervention to end an insurrable, uncurriable medical condition.     BUT, I do not think it is right to force this on anyone who has not made that choice in sound mind.    I do not like hospice for this reason.   I feel that they are pushing their "service" on family members who do not understand the choice...and forcing a choice for their loved ones who can no longer make informed choices for themselves.     Maybe the medical directives need to be clear about the choice for or against the use of hospice.

Lord, I hope Flowgo, the original OP doesn't come out of the woodwork again. As I recall, she just wanted to argue this topic ad nauseum.

This is such a polarizing topic. While it can make for an interesting discussion. I feel it's one of those "Let's just agree to disagree, topics" and leave it at that.

Thank you Gershun. I have to agree. There are so many x factors its almost impossible to a reasonable discussion.

For what it is worth and my views on death with dignity are well known - I approve FOR ME 100% but I absolutely support the rights of others to disagree FOR THEM.

I now have a very dear friend who has one father and one MIL and one FIL and no contact with her mother for over 20 years (nor will there ever be contact and for a very very good reason).

All 3 of these loved ones are now in a terminal state two with metastasising cancers and one with motor-neuron disease. All have been given a time span so we are talking day weeks and one case months.

All of them want to die with dignity and she is utterly helpless because we don't have that in the UK. Meanwhile they live about an hours drive (each in different directions so to visit them all is a 7 hour slot and how she is managing it and doing a job is totally beyond me. She tells me that as they only have such a short time she needs to make it the best she can for them.

So now I see another side to it all - what about the family who are absolutely run ragged trying to do their best for people who don't want to live anyway. Moreover how would they cope if all three died in a short time span like within hours of each other?

Her health is sure to suffer if she keeps up this insane pace and no-one is offering to move all of them to the same hospital because it simply can't be done (Heaven forbid the social worker couldn't tick a box!)

There is no simple answer for sure - all I can tell you is that she totally opposes death with dignity and is doing a fabulous job.... I just wonder at what cost to herself

Phoenix I totally agree with your point of view but I would not like to leave this decision in the hands of others.
I shared my hospital experiences with a nurse doing a pre op interview the other day. She asked which hospital and when I told her she said they did the best they could to kill her Uncle.Did not suceed thankfully because he had a strong advocate.

PD, she might have more luck moving them all to the same hospice. Who are her operators locally? And is she in touch with Macmillan? I'm sorry to read of anyone who's got such battalions of troubles on her hands, poor love.

If only they could agree CM. Unfortunately they span 3 counties between them so not a chance in h*ll of them working together - that would be far to easy OK so I am cynical but with local cuts here there and everywhere it just seems to get worse.

Yesterday as an example I had a visit from TWO OTs (why it needed two is beyond me) Neither of them had English as a first language and their accents were quite strong. Bearing that in mind we identified it and asked them to speak slowly and clearly and check Mum understood. And did that happen? Of course it d*mned well didn't. So now they are going to send out a third one - who doesn't understand dementia at all and expects me to be there every time she moves to pick something up - yeah like that's going to happen!

All I want is a bloody hoist and to be trained in how to use it and I have offered to buy the bloody hoist. So far they have spent oodles on visits from people my mum didnt understand and time that I simply don't have. Apparently I am doing all the care completely wrong and I must now do it a different way.

As a result of their visit and the ONE attempt to do it their way I am now back on Tramadol. Am I cross? Nooooo of course not I am d*mned livid!

They sent my DIL's granny, who had galloping Alzheimers by then, an ADL assessor who was a deaf lady accompanied by a signing interpreter. Can you imagine?

I just want to know *who* thinks 'this could work!'

Ummm.... For training on the hoist, how about asking your GP to ask the physios at Southampton? Or your nearest rehab centre, if there still is one (they're closing them down faster than pubs, apparently)? All you need is to get in there and watch for half an hour, and have a couple of goes on it.

Oh my CM, I sympathize with the physically challenged needing to find a place in the workforce, but I think we've thrown common sense out the window in the effort to make accommodations.