What are your thoughts on euthanasia in the medical field assisted suicide?

Jude Hopefully you and your family will not have to go through all the agony that we had to go through and are still going through because of the dnr and end of life choices.

cm I have heard many people express their opinion verbally and read many comments of pro euthanasia. Now I would like to hear the opinions of those who who are against it. I did not really want to get into a debate about it. I myself am against it because of my personal experiences of what I have learned that can happen in the medical field. I now realize that many will be in harms way if euthanasia becomes legal especially in our state.We have very lax laws in place here which would make it even worse than it already is. I also do not think abortion is right.There have been babies that were five months along that actually had to be killed by the doctor performing the abortion.That to me seems more like murder.

As for DNR I am pretty sure that the medical staff will always be glad to honor them and beyond.Like what happened with my mom. That is how it is where we are. I would like to think that not everywhere is that bad

My mom had a DNR in place, she did not want to be put on any breathing machines or anything that would extend her life had she ended up in a hopeless vegetative state and not be able to recover.

However, she did not want the staff to go ahead and do as they please to get her into a vegetative state with enough sedatives to cause her great bodily harm to the point of needing CPR to get her heart started after the overdose stopped it. and death. I know that those were not her intentions, it seemed to be the opposite of the medical staffs. I have always been against dnrs and anything like that. I believe the opposite of what my mom would have wanted. If I could have ever possibly thought of having what my mom had, I for sure as heck would not want it now after seeing how cruel the medical staff can be. It is way to risky and I would never recommend it now to anyone.

Sadly without people having choices, we will continue to see elderly couples where one spouse is in so much pain from cancer they can't stand it, and the other spouse in such despair wanting to help his/her spouse... thus, in some cases the only recourse is murder/suicide. Anytime I read stories like that it just tugs at my heart.

Or where a spouse goes to a nursing home and ends the life of the patient/spouse.... thus he/she rather spend in the rest of their own life in jail than keep watching their love one keep suffering.

My father died from cancer ff and the situation was quite grim. His lungs were filling with fluid causing him tremendous pain, the painkillers were knocking him out so he was dehydrating, the drip rehydrated him only for his lungs to fill with fluid again...cyclical agony for him. He never wanted to go onto morphine at all and refused it but was screaming in pain so there really wasn't a choice in the end (AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THAT IS).

In those days doctors had to get the permission from the next of kin before they could administer and my mum handed next of kinship straight over to me because she didn't want to make the decision.
I spoke at length with the consultant who was lovely and explained to me that there was no choice but to not administer morphine in accordance with Dad's wishes UNLESS I GAVE PERMISSION but that meant me signing permission and this would mean he would die sooner than he otherwise would but he would not be in pain.

They could withdraw the drip but he would die of dehydration - he was unable to swallow. Was he euthanised legally and with the utmost integrity? I hope so because if not I guess I murdered him.

What I do know is that he died peacfully holding my hand. He waited until Mum wasn't in the room which rather tells me he wanted tospare her the pain too - at least I hope it does for if it doesn't I would rather commit suicide right now than go on living thinking i had murdered him

We recently had a murder-suicide in a San Marcos hospital. A retired Methodist bishop shot his wife and then himself in her hospital room. She had received a bad diagnosis, though I'm not sure what it was. It was apparently so painful that they couldn't bear to go through it. He was 87 and she was 85. Some people would be outraged, but I understood the pain that must have gone into such a decision made by a godly man.

Flowgo is trying to manage her grief. It's not working. She does not want a rational discussion about mom's death. Her mind is made up. I would venture to say that her family is sick of hearing about it and, while they may be sympathetic, they do not agree with her. She alone sees conspiracy.

Why do I say that? Well, first because I have no patience for it. Old people die. They die unexpectedly sometimes. Rapid decline after major surgery is not unusual. And, while an Angel of Death is not out of the question, a vast conspiracy by staff to kill a little old lady is ludicrous.

We do not have all the facts. She doesn't even want to tell us her mom's age. We don't know what kind of operation she had. And, frankly, any information we get now is suspect since Flow has a narrative in mind and, IMO, cannot be trusted to give us info that doesn't neatly fit within it.

SO! For all of those people who have family on hospice at home, who have loved ones in the hospital on the brink of their final journey, or who are considering calling on hospice, believe this: hospice services are a gift to the dying and a gift to their families. Their medications and analgesics are subject to protocol. The administration of same is carefully monitored. And while there may EVER SO RARELY be a rogue PERSON (not team, not hospital, not conspiracy) the hospice program is staffed with some of the most compassionate people on earth.

Not to make things worse, but where a termination of pregnancy takes place at five months' gestation the foetus will always, not sometimes, need to be killed medically (unless it's dead already). I believe, but don't quote me, that a potassium compound is injected to stop its heart prior to delivery. No doctor agreeing to carry out terminations can be unaware of what's involved; but it's an entirely different debate concentrated on whether or not the unborn child at that early stage of development - incapable of sustaining independent life outside the womb, that is - is a human being with human rights, or is not. Some say yes, some say no. And even if you could settle that point to everyone's satisfaction, which you can't, you then move swiftly into the quagmire of what to do when the one being's human rights conflict directly with another's. For all of which reasons, I'm very glad that abortion is not a subject I am ever likely to be called on to have an opinion about.

Jude, thank you for filling in some of the details. I know the facts of this case are spread out over a couple of threads. I have to admit that when messages get too long I either skim them or don't read them at all. My fault.

I can tell you the facts. The coroner had to change the reason of her death. The death cert said she had end stages of many things that she never even had. So it was changed to the real thing that happened to her. It had nothing to do with the procedure. Lets just say if she never would have come to that hospital she would still be here today. You can look at some of my other posts and learn more about it. It would take too long to type it all out again.

As far as the drugs go she had as much as they wanted to give her. I remember the nurses telling me she was anxious as she waited to see the doctor. My mom was happily talking on the phone with her friends. She was talking in a low quiet voice and the staff did not seem to be bothered with it.They were chitchatting with me and everything was fine.They did not even seem annoyed or irritated by her when she was talking to her friends on the phone. She was even talking to me in a low quiet voice so as not to disturb anyone.My mom had very good manners.There was no reason for the deadly drugs.

The nurses said that they were going to order a haldol adivan cocktail and they asked the doctor. I was trying to explain how she has a reaction but one closed the curtain in my face and the other gave it to her. I never was able to figure out what caused them to even want to give her that.It was very bizarre and very horrifying as to what would cause them to want to give her those very powerful drugs that she was not supposed to have. It was so bad since they knew about her reaction by me telling them and often if she got a chance. She also would tell them. It was also written in her chart.

Maybe they were using drugs themselves, I have heard that sometimes there are medical staff who use drugs They spoke fine and did not have slurred voices to indicate that they were using drugs.They were very hyper, that was about it. I'm not sure if that would be an indication.They were not the only ones who drugged her though, it was constant mostly if I turned my back for a second.I know that after the investigation was done that a lot of staff from the hospitals she was at were fired. That is not right cause they can get jobs other places maybe in other states and again go and wreck havoc somewhere else.

The skin fungal infection was a infection that the hospital gave her

The nurses could not order Haldol and Ativan. Someone has to prescribe it. Nurses can't prescribe.

Flowgo, I have a feeling you are in the first stages of grief, where there is often either guilt or blame. If you had the medical proxy, you could have stopped the administration of any medications. Are you feeling some guilt about that? The coroner most likely did not do the death certificate. That will typically be signed off by a doctor at the hospital where death occurred.

Personally I am glad that my father had his DNR in place. I was the acting medical proxy, since my mother has dementia. I knew my father did not want to continue living. When the nurses asked if we wanted CPR to revive my father, I told her no. She had explained how the pressure on his ribs could crack them. I knew my father had enough of this life and that there was eternity waiting for him in a healthy body on the other side. My father's DNR and advanced directives made it possible and easier for me to say no to CPR and to let him go peacefully. It would have been horrifying if they had tried to return his withered frame to life.

My family and friends are all devastated over what happened to my mom till this day. I already typed about everything you have asked about so you can look at my profile and other posts to find out what you want to find out. Its all there. The coroner was able to find out what she died of at least. So that is what matters.not what your diagnosis is. If you find these mass amounts of drugs alright under especially these circumstances then I don't know what to say and it may be better for me not to talk to you. You don't seem to be reading what I wrote anyway. You just want to believe what you want to believe without even paying attention to all of the facts. It ok believe what ever you want since you could care less anyway. That is quite obvious.

So no answers at all then flowgo Ladies I will leave you to her constant bleating and whinging because quite frankly when someone is totally opposed to all reason and is intent as she is on making people who put others into care feel oodles of guilt that THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO FEEL then I am not going to support her in that aim.

If you do due diligence and monitor at each visit then that is sufficient - if you find anomalies you report them STRAIGHT AWAY - you dont wait a year and then whine that nothing was done because you passed the statute of limitations.

the fact that you cant name and identify each question asked of you indicates you are not willing to address this effectively

pressed psot too soon. As for reading all your posts which reiterate the same thing over and over and never identify anything you must seriously be deludes about people's on here for we spenmd a lot of time caring for our relatives and we use the time on here to support each other not to frighten the bejaysus out of each other or to scare people into caring for others when they themselves are burned out rather than put them into the type of place you describe - I have visited hundreds of care homes and NEVER seen instutionalised malpractice EVER.

You make comments about nurses giving meds they are not supposed to when they follow doctors instructions. I absolutely have read your post and am utterly incensed that you think it is OK to frighten people to a situation where they will forego the correct care purely because of teh scaremongering posts you have made.

Jude, Jessie, Maggie, CM, and probably others who have responded earlier to this post - you have very good insights, assessments, analytical responses. Some I agree with; others raise interesting points for consideration.

But the point is that they're well thought out and rational posts, and worth reading. They're not bitter, hostile, unfounded accusations and rants.

(ducking now as I feel an INCOMING! headed toward me.)

Jude, your comparison of eugenics vs. euthanasia was scholarly; you made some very good observations.

Historically, there's also the issue of the German's humiliating defeat in WWI which as I recall from a study of German history in college left Germans stinging with resentment, and according to some historians, positioned them for the racist appeal of Hitler and the hostility toward the Jews.

Giving credit where credit is due, though, not all the German citizens supported Hitler - but to object would bring terror to their families as well.

This post could go on forever and nothing is going to change Flow's position. It's time to give it a rest (and cut off the attention it's getting) and move on.

Flowgo, I agree that the medications are often too strong for elders who have not taken much meds in their lives. If they have been on painkillers for years they have "drug insensitivity" and the doctors are much more used to people like that, so they prescribe those high doses. Again and again I would have to advocate for the lowest possible dose at first, as my mother had rarely taken anything in her lifetime.

Absolutely GA the reparations were really poorly thought out and meant a lot starved to death and, without much doubt - given the additional knowledge we now have - left a gaping hole that someone as ingenious and such a good speaker - for we cannot deny he was both however much we loathe him - could easily step into.

He was manipulative and felt if he shouted loud enough and long enough the whole world would believe him. His countryfolk didn't completely but once in power he could do pretty much what he liked and had sufficent henchm,en and bully boys to drive the point home or eliminate the opposition

I guess that's why I dont like lack of clarity when people are ranting - I want the whole precise picture not one person's perception of something being corrupt because they feel aggrieved and having emotive usage of words just to glean attention. It's something trolls do quite frequently on here and last time I promised meself I wouldn't get embroiled when a poster went off on one again - hmmm that didnt last long did it!

Jude this is a bit half-baked because I wasn't in a fit state to concentrate on what I was told at the time, but I hope it will be a consolation (especially if you want to look it up and get the technical details) - on the point of morphine, pulmonary oedema and oxygenation there is a complex calculation to be made to achieve the maximum possible uptake of oxygen in the face of compromised lung function. Morphine slows breathing, but improves the quality of respiration, is what it boils down to: its value is not limited to pain relief, and you were right not to oppose its use. To be fair, the trembling GP was trying to explain this to me while edging out of the door in response to the expression on my face when she first proposed it, so it's not her fault I didn't quite get it - it took an intervention from doctor daughter, whom I couldn't possibly suspect of trying to see her beloved granny off in short order, to make me calm down and stop jumping to false conclusions.

You did good by your Dad. Don't you worry.

Jude I don't think you murdered him not even close. you wanted to help him and do what was best for him if he was in peace and holding your hand you did good.
No one was forcing drugs on him it was you and the families choice, that is awesome.That is how it was with my dad. My dad also died from cancer. He died in his own home with his family. He did not want to go because he still should have had his life in front of him.He had no choice, cancer is not nice.It was very difficult.
I was able to deal with the loss of my dad and grandma within the year that they died. Till this day there is an empty space in my heart for them but I always have managed.
Their death was natural cause it was up to them and family if need be. My mom's life was actually taken for no reason at all literally. I cant even call the way that my mom was taken a mercy killing done by staff. I do have grief for the way she was taken and do not know how to deal with it all. I have not dealt with the actual death yet either. I cant go there at all. It is easier to not think about anything that has to do with my actual mom cause every time I do I get so mad.So I am trying to do things constructive at least by telling my experiences so others can learn. I sure wish I would have read someones experience like mine so I could have had a fair warning.Things would have been so much different.

Last try.

Flowgo, your mother went into hospital for an elective surgical procedure. Something went badly wrong and as a result of that, very sadly, she died.

What was the elective procedure and why did she need it?

Should be individual's choice.

In Middlebury Vermont, there is a very active group around this topic. It's called "Patient Choices Vermont". http://patientchoices.org/about/
This is a tough issue. Best to you in this said and painful decision.

I want to point out that this portion woman has been posting about her mother's untimely death since October 2011. At that point, she stated that a year had elapsed since her mother's passing. If she hasn't been able to get the authorities, a legal advisor or the media interested in this case in 5 going on 6 years, I'm going to suggest that there was something medically wrong with her mom that she was unaware of and that possibly was being kept from her by family. I think that this is a sad situation on many levels.

jessie bell the coroner had to change the death certificate because the doctors did not give the correct reason for death. The doctors listed many end stages of diseases that she never had.
I know I have mentioned in one post or another about all of the questions you have asked. So just look at my posts and profile and all the questions should be there, as irrelevant as they are. My main concern is the drugs given to her when she was not supposed to get them and the amount. If the investigators said that it was enough to cause great harm or death do you honestly think that this is ok. seriously.

I really don't think that there is any excuse for that. She was in charge of her own health.That was all fine until the drugging started. She herself could not stop herself from being drugged.That is pretty bad.

My mom had a dnr and no drastic end of life measures.She also did not want to live in a coma or vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

This did not mean for the staff to drug her into a coma and then tell us she is deteriorating and she will need to go to hospice. That is what happened during the first really big overdose. Fortunately her heart got back to normal after that and that hospice would not take her cause her heart was good. She was sent home in a vegetative state barely walking and when she did walk it was with great difficulty.She was not talking for a while. This was a lady who loved gardening hiking in the hills walking her dogs and she still worked part time. She was a very active lady who loved to keep herself busy. She was trying to get over that when she got complications from the overdosing and she went to the hospital.Believe it or not she was drugged once again before recovering. This was after I told them about the reaction and it was in her chart of the drugs she could not have.

You are right about the guilt, I feel so guilty about not talking her into going to a safer hospital, maybe in a different state or country if need be. Actually I could have had her gone to my old doctor in another county and the hospital that he worked out of was safer. She may have actually had a chance if she did not have to fight with the sedatives.

cm No, she forgot to bring the advanced directive at first. The doctor said she could get it later after the procedure.The reactions to the adivan was written on her chart right away and I explained it to the staff and she did until she was drugged. I told jb that she can go look at my profile and other posts for the answers to the questions she asked they should all be there for as irrelevant as they are. My concern is the massive amount of drugs enough to cause great bodily harm and death. Can you find an excuse for that much drugs????????? Is there ever an excuse for that much drugs especially against the patients wishes. She did not deserve that kind of treatment no matter what. There was just too many things that did not make sense besides the drugs. As I already said before nothing was written on the death certificate about that. Do you want me to send a copy to you.

There was only one thing written on the death certificate after it was corrected and with all that I posted, I'm sure that was also posted. I'm not sure which post. I have mostly written on two you have commented on both. You should have seen it just read it.

What did the coroner list as cause of death after changing the death certificate? Is it possible that your mother was prematurely discharged from the hoslital the first time which could have caused a relaspe? The way you explain what happened, someone should have been arrested for murder. You could file a wrongful death suit if you are positive there was an impropriety done toward your mother. Start being proactive and not reactive!

You never mentioned in any postongs the final disposition on the cause of death

What was the cause of death listed on the death certificate the first time and what was it changed to? Simple question why continue to be evasive then we can judge for ourselves.

I just learned that the couple who died at the San Marcos hospital (Joy and Ben Chamness) were different people than the Joye and Ben Chamness with the UMC church. Just a coincidence in names. I looked up obits for the deceased couple and saw they were from Lockhart/Luling, TX, and not from where the bishop and his wife were from.

My apologies for the error.

jb cm How can the nurse make a medicine mistake when my mom was not supposed to get that drug in the first place??????.This was like I said a million times before it was written in her chart and I explained it in great detail after she was in icu comatose from a previous overdose.It had happened before also.

Ok maybe the nurse forgot to look at the chart, but the nurse had to have noticed that the patient was comatose, not even semi comatose but fully unconscious and not even moving this last time.Did the nurse not notice???? or did she forget her glasses???

I'm not sure why the nurse would be yelling out dnr and adivan which was the drug my mom was not supposed to get.Why was the dnr mentioned????? What does that have to do with the drug she was not supposed to get??? Maybe there is some reasonable explanation or it is all a big mistake. Why did the nurse tell me I could say no to the drugs as mom was already completely comatose from the previous drug overdose????? Why didn't the nurse think of not giving her anymore drugs herself when she was not moving at all????especially since she already had enough to cause great bodily harm and death. Please help me understand why and how this could have happened.This last time she never did regain consciousness which was very tragic. I never was able to talk to her again. Thanks to the medical staff.There were just way too many mistakes for it all to look like a giant accident, If it was a giant accident then the hospitals are going to need a whole lot of work before they can even begin to be safe again.This is just one of the many situations that happened.

Flowgo, I hate to continue this painful circular discussion, but I'll try to help you out if I can. If a Doctor prescribed a medicine, lets say every 4 hours, the nurse will HAVE to give that medicine AS PRESCRIBED. It wouldn't matter if she didn't think it was helpful or if your mom was comatose or if you objected to her. Her job is to follow the doctor's orders. She could lose her job, even go to jail for not following orders, especially if something went wrong.
If a nurse told you you could ask to stop the medication, then she was telling you to you to speak to the Doctors, not the nurses, who were after all only doing what they legally and ethically had to do.
If a nurse shouted "DNR", I would assume your mom was actively dying at that point and she was letting everyone know that a DNR was in place. To perform CPR or other lifesaving measures on someone with a DNR would be unethical and illegal.
None of us can speak to what exactly happened that lead up to that point, but it seems your mom went in for surgery, it went badly and her condition deteriorated rapidly and unexpectedly. Think about what happened to Joan Rivers, totally unexpected. Whether it was fate or malpractice that brought on the decline we on this forum can't know, but we are all sorry for the pain you are still suffering from. Have you considered grief counselling?