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FrankM Asked October 2021

Trying to finish probate but have disputes? Father was taken advantage of.

I am trying to wrap up probate but i am disputing a bill that has been sent to debt collections.


Can you close probate when there are disputes?


The bill is total fraud and i can show the contract to them when they ask when i sign the last probate paper work.


I have been fighting it for months and i think it will take years at the rate the debt collection responds which i think is on purpose.


My dad signed a contract for 2 years on a fall device alert he passed away 2 months into this contract. The company sent the entire two years of payments to debt collections.


The lease even states if you die you pay $0 if you return the device which i did a month after he passed. This is a local company that gives me the run around when i go into the store and ask them to drop this bill.


They tell me it is nothing they can do since it's financed through a credit company that i have to talk to them.


To make matters even worse they are telling me that dad had two contracts for another device! He had one then upgraded to a new better model so they sent that to the debt collections to.


I was told by the debt collection that the other account should have been closed when he upgraded but this crap company left it open and was charging him for a device he didn't even have! and now it has been sent to the debt collection.


The debt collection people are more helpful than the local company.


I don't have any proof that dad does not have the other device or any bank statements to show he was taken advantage of as the bank account is closed.


I have spent many hours and trips to this store, i do not want to pay them anything! The total they are trying to get is just over $10,000


He way paying $180 and $129 a month on fall alert.

Geaton777 Oct 2021
"If someone dies owing a debt, does the debt go away when they die?

No, when someone dies owing a debt, the debt does not go away. Generally, the deceased person’s estate is responsible for paying any unpaid debts. The estate’s finances are handled by the personal representative, executor, or administrator. That person pays any debts from the money in the estate, not from their own money. "

Source:
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/if-someone-dies-owing-a-debt-does-the-debt-go-away-when-they-die-en-1463

Also, do you have a receipt to prove you returned the equipment and when? The cable company forced me to pay for a modem I had returned but they lost in their system and I never asked for a receipt.

FrankM Oct 2021
I have not talked to a lawyer yet.

What the debt collection did was send a letter in the mail looking for the estate of my father which i control. You call them and they tell you who they are trying to collect a debt for.

So they are not harassing me.

I have one of the contracts.
JoAnn29 Oct 2021
Its a private Collection agency who has probably bought the debt and is trying to collect on it with no documentation so you need to go back to the original provider. No matter if original device or upgraded one, the contracts read the same, its null and void upon death. So the Estate owes them nothing passed Dads death. They must back up their claim with more than an amount of money. Call the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They at least can tell you your rights and how to proceed. What you need to realize that once a person dies, so does the Contract. They cannot dispute what is in writing on their own contract. Believe me, the person ur talking to in the store has no idea what he is talking about. He is a Sales rep. I have worked with sale reps and they will tell a client anything to get a sale and then I had to explain, sorry, that has nothing to do with paying ur bills.

If the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau cannot help, then I would go to a lawyer. I had to go to a lawyer to have Moms house put back into the estate. He ended up doing the accting and closing probate. It was so nice and worth the money. You could go in reference to the debt and let the lawyer finish probate.

I really don't think Dad owes anything. They will have to prove the second device and that the first one was not exchanged out. The worst thing, u may have to pay for a device. Someone in their billing dept boobed.

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GardenArtist Oct 2021
Frank, another thought.  If the debt collector continues to harass you, try to find an attorney who handles defense of debt collection actions.  "Creditors' rights firms have debt collectors as clients, so you don't want to contact them.  

If might be worth it to get an attorney involved.   The attorney might demand compensation from the debt collector and the original company for your time expended.   If their case is flimsy, which it seems to be, THEY could end up paying you.

And, BTW, I would also file a complaint with the BBB against the local company.

Good luck!
FrankM Oct 2021
I love that for all the time i have spent with these idiots.
GardenArtist Oct 2021
Frank, you're missing something that really could be of help:  the Fair Debt Collections Practices act.

The statute:
https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rules/rulemaking-regulatory-reform-proceedings/fair-debt-collection-practices-act-text

Helpful guidance:
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/debt-collection-faqs

Please read either one, or both, before you do anything else.  

Some observations and suggestions:

1.  The contract was executed by your father, not you.   Your initial response should have cited the FDCPA and advised that the debt is not yours individually to address (you may have already done this) but an ALLEGED obligation of the Estate.   Also, if there are any outstanding funds due to this company, they're obligations of the Estate (my apologies if you've already stated this.)

2.   Under the FDCPA you had the right to demand copies of relevant data supporting their claim, again, on behalf of the Estate.    You also had the right to demand cessation of harassment.

3.  Since you have been engaging in contact with the debt collection agency, there might be an issue whether or not you've been construed to have waived rights of nonresponse.  This is an aspect with which I'm not familiar, but it would be that by willingly  responding, you've theoretically or inferentially waived the right to demand no further contact under the FDPCA.   I'd have to reread the statute though.  

There was a time when I had to challenge a bill sent to my father, and I invoked the FDCPA, and when the company continued I cited the noncontact invocation and advised I would take legal action against them if they continued to harass my father.   They did give up but I don't recall how long it took.

4.   At this point, I still would try the invocation (cease verbal contact and harassment), sent by certified mail, return receipt requested so that you have written documentation.  At this point, I would also suggest you advise both the company and the debt collector that you demand contact be written.

You might also advise that legal action against them would be considered if they continued to pursue their baseless claims.  But don't hint at what action you would take.  

When I worked for law firms during economic downturns, we NEVER outlined action, always leaving an open path for we might need to do.    Something like "any and all action necessary will be considered."   This leaves the situation open for hiring an attorney, refusing contact, filing a BBB complaint, etc.  (And in fact, I would get the BBB involved, if for nothing more than letting them know you mean business.)

5.   You wrote:

"I don't have any proof that dad does not have the other device or any bank statements to show he was taken advantage of as the bank account is closed."  

Shift the burden of proof on the "other device" to them, stating that you have no evidence the second device was sent and DEMAND documentation be provided by them, including delivery date, acknowledgment of receipt by your father, etc.

It's their assertion; burden of proof is on them, not you.

6.  As to the bank, they have records; use your authority as Personal Rep (f/k/a Executor) to ask for copies of the bank records of transactions with the company.

7.   Do not terminate Probate until this issue is resolved.   On the off chance that there are funds still due, you would end up paying them out of your own pocket.

8.  You also wrote:

"They tell me it is nothing they can do since it's financed through a credit company that i have to talk to them."

When you write your "no further verbal contact letter", demand documentation from the credit company.

Shifting the burden to the alleged original companies involved puts them on the spot, and should bring you some piece of mind.   If they do continue to contact you verbally, document it - date, time, messages left, but DO NOT speak with them.

JoAnn29 Oct 2021
I have been researching but it all comes up disputing Credit Card debt. I did find this

"The collecting creditor only has five days from first contact to provide a debt validation letter. According to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, entities attempting to collect a debt must provide you with certain information."

So, you may want to get assertive. Go to the store with a copy of the lease highlighting that its null and void upon death. Which I actually think is a law. Show them proof you returned the item. And a copy of Dads death certificate. That means you owe nothing on the original lease.

Then ask that they provide a copy of the upgraded contract and proof of delivery for the upgraded item. That proof would be paperwork from PO showing it was received, a tracking# or a signed receipt. Seems they have 5 days to produce info to back up their claim. I would also request a statement showing billing amounts and payments made. Make sure they realize, by law, they have 5 days to respond. (May want to confirm this in your State)

I realize I may have overwhelmed you in my last post. I was writing as things popped into my head. As a Collector, if I could not prove a charge, it had to be written off. Keep telling yourself its THEM that have to prove. Looks like you can call the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau too. Since you have been dealing with this company for months, maybe that should be your call. They may just ask for the info you can provide and go from there. A government agency calling may change their way of thinking.

Please update us on how this works out. We learn from others.

JoAnn29 Oct 2021
I agree something is fishy here and you may have to report them to the FTC, Federal Trade Commission. I would say that once Dad died, that all contract/s were null and void. If you have a lease that says nothing is owed if the person dies, I don't see how they can say otherwise. I get that with the price info you gave its only about $7500 that maybe owed deducting the two months Dad did pay.

Did they provide you with an upgraded contract? If not, they have to. Can they prove that a new device was shipped to Dad and he received it, meaning he signed for it or that he picked it up which would also be signed for? THEY need to supply proof.

So you have the original lease that says the contract is null and void at the time of death and hopefully paperwork showing u returned it. If that was the $130 device that is about 3k you don't owe.

Now the second contract. They need to prove there was one. Dad only had the device 2 months, when did he upgrade? This would be noted on a new contract. Because a new contract has to have been made up showing the new price. And that contract should read that it was null and void after death. If they can prove the item was shipped or picked up, the worst you should owe is the cost of the item. I really feel that by law Contracts are null and void upon death. Family is not responsible for a contract they did not sign.

I worked Collections for private companies. When a customer questioned a charge, he didn't have to prove the charge, I did. I had to pull the invoice, talk to the person who generated it and pull Proof of Deliveries. You are working with a private Collection agency that just has been given an amount owed. For now, ask them not to continue to call, better to do it in writing. I think you are probably working with Jerks at the store that have no idea how it all works. Ask them if there is a Corporate office or a main billing office. They are the ones you need to talk to. Tell the accting office that you have a contract and proof the item was returned so nothing is owed there per their contract. If the local store was not forthcoming with a new contract and proof of delivery, you tell the accting department that. Tell them without that information there is no proof your Dad authorized an upgrade.

Even if an acct is closed, the Bank should be able to retrieve past Statements. You only need the months Dad may have paid for the device. Did he put it on a credit card? His check book showing the check# and date paid. The bank should be able to supply canceled checks for those checks.

So the worst that could happen here is Dad owes the 2 months he had it and you have to pay for the upgraded device if they prove he received it. If they delivered it, then they need signed paperwork. It should show the new device being delivered and the old one taken back and Dads signature. Oh yeh, if there was a new device, is that the one you returned? Usually with an upgrade, the old one is returned in the same pkging the new one was sent in if mailed.

Again, the ball is in their park. If you want, run what I have said by a lawyer. I really think, though, if the company can't prove otherwise, you owe them nothing. That 10k is not going to effect your credit but Dads and he is gone. There also maybe something where the company has a certain timeline to prove their claim. If not done within that time, you owe nothing.
FrankM Oct 2021
The lease that i do have is for 48 months at $192 a month that is over $9,000 and dad used this device for two months.

He signed the lease Jan 2021 and passed away 2 months later. The debt collector is trying to collect over $9000 when the lease says once you return the item or you die you pay $0. I returned the device a month after he passed and got a signature once i got the run around.

I had to make multiple trips to the local store and multiple phone calls before i got anywhere. It was the debt collector that told me to return the device. The local store acted clueless.

I think once you close probate they have zero chance at getting any money but before i can close it the paper i sign says i must pay all of his depts.
Geaton777 Oct 2021
The problem with claiming that he "was taken advantage of" is that it's not any seller's responsibility to verify that a buyer is "competent" to make the purchase or not when they sign contracts.

"...they are telling me that dad had two contracts for another device! He had one then upgraded to a new better model so they sent that to the debt collections to.

I was told by the debt collection that the other account should have been closed when he upgraded but this crap company left it open and was charging him for a device he didn't even have! and now it has been sent to the debt collection."

Do you not have a copy of those contracts? If not, they should provide you with copies. I would ask to see proof of those contracts. I think your only recourse is to find out whether they themselves broke the contract or not.

Ricky6 Oct 2021
Have you asked your lawyer about this situation?

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