My sister and I dealt with our mother's estate several months ago. We hired a trusted lawyer my sister and her husband had used for years, and the probate process got finished in two months because it was almost entirely stocks plus cash.
My parents had a trust document, but probate was required because no one had been listed as a beneficiary in the brokerage account to which the securities had been transferred, and the fact that the trust document listed them and designated us as beneficiaries wasn't considered sufficient for the brokerage firm, so the latter required probate. My sister and I were "on the same page" with everything, so this made the process much easier. Although she was named the executrix and I was the "backup" she had much less experience with financial issues so I did most of the work and she just signed the forms. She was in no hurry to be bothered with all this, and was happy to get it done as simply and quickly as possible. I didn't encourage rushing into this process because I didn't want to appear greedy.
Tax forms have been filed, but now my sister and I must pay taxes on the dividends generated by the stocks since our mother's death.
I found out the hard way to not take the lawyer's word for it that the will was filed with the court. Clerk of court said, never got it. Make sure to have several copies in your possession and if it's your will, file it yourself. You can't trust people these days.
My father passed in January... I haven't started intestate will because I'm settling his assets and collecting all information needed. Could I be somehow penalized for having no other option but take almost a year if not a full year to start the process? I have nobody helping me, no money for lawyers and I'm his only family at all
Is there penalty for taking a long time (months) to start the probate process typically? I'm gathering all I can of my father's to prepare for probate and am looking at only being able to start the process now, he passed in January.
My mother died 10 years ago and my brother was executor and never filed probate. When does the value of the estate begin, 10 years ago or now, if he files now
My older brother and his wife are expecting twins, which has inspired them to put their affairs in order in case anything should happen to their children. They decided they want to leave instructions to hire a probate lawyer to take care of their estate. After reading this article, I feel I agree with their decision; I never realized how many matters there are to take care of when a loved one passes, like filing tax returns, and possibly having to file for an extension to avoid a late-penalty. It would all be made much easier with the help of a probate lawyer. www.patwoodlaw.com/probate-law
I was listed as a Co Executor in my parents will years ago with a sibling. The said sibling no longer speaks to me and both parents are still living. My father has cancer and my mom has dementia and I am needing to know how do I remove my name as Co executor. I just can’t deal with all the drama my siblings are doing now and can’t imagine how bad it will be once a parents pass. Nothing they have is worth my own sanity. I love my family I just can’t get along with them, they are selfish and greedy and personally I don’t need or want anything from the said estate when the day happens. Any advice would be appreciated.
If you think you have been named in a WILL or Trust, ask to see the Trust. READ it. A Trust also has a Will included in the Trust. Mine does anyway. I cannot believe the fighting that took place when my partner passed. The Trust was the paper that finalized the fighting. I gave everyone my attorney's phone number and told them to call him. They did on a joint telephone call. They could not wait to put me out of my house and take all that he had. What a shock it was to them when my Partners attorney told them. Sorry folks, You are getting NADA. They literally made me sick. I was on anti depression pills for a year due to their ugliness. GET the Trust done and spell it out.
ESTATE is the ONLY way to go. Why do Probate and everyone SHARES in the money. The Trust Estate lays it out before the love passes. We did our Trust while we were young and aware and did not want to wait until the end.
I have been taking care of both of my parents for the last 6 months full time24/7. Have always been involved with them and thier health for years...my father passed away recently and my two older sisters, including my mom, have told me that, "my dad is dead, and it don't matter anymore. Mom owns everything and I don't have a dog in that fight. The law will be called if I ever return to her house... They even cremated him when it was against his religious beliefs....I don't think there is a will but my older sister says she has been named executor of his estate in a will.... How can I stop them from taking all his personal items and keeping/ selling them for personal gains. Can I protest the will/estate and be reimbursed for all expenses incurred over the last 6 months of traveling twice daily to and from thier home. Food, medications, doctors appointments. Etc.. I can't allow this to keep eating at me and not do nothing legally about it????
Igloo, thank you for your posting. Most of my Dad's clothes were trashed due to poor condition and wouldn't been able to give away free. Dad use to joke that he could look down on his shirt and remember what he had for lunch :)
Guess it is best for me not to overthink this... my OCD tends to kick in on things like this.
I remember many decades back when my Mom's parents had passed, they owned a business which was part of the estate. It took 10 years to probate because one of Mom's sisters was suing the Estate because she didn't like what she was inheriting, then she would change Attorneys and start from scratch. It would have made a good Bravo series.
FreqFlyer - yeah trusts sound all so snazzy but the devil is in the details. Every - & that means every no matter how tiny - possible asset must be moved into the trust otherwise probate will be needed. About the inventory - even those used clothing at the NH have a value! My atty put it down as $ 700 as something needs to be put into personal inventory. The one good thing with probate is that you do not have to rush to do anything or close it out. I learned this from my first ever probate guy when I dealt with an aunt's estate of which I was named and totally unexpectedly, probate can move glacially. This is my 3rd executrix rodeo, first one was 4+ years, 2nd was within a year and now I'm going into year 2 for my mom's. Each quite different creatures to deal with. BTW for the first one there was quite a bit of value of the estate and I was paid a fee (% of estate) plus a draw for expenses which did add up as "foreign" assets involved….sounds all intriguing but really means property in another state or county were in the assets.
My Dad had a Trust made for him this past Spring but I never was able to put any of his financial paperwork into the Trust as he had stock scattered everywhere so I wanted all the stock under one broker before turning it loose into the Trust. Sadly Dad passed before I was able to do that :(
So, hello Probate.... my gosh, it is 10x worse then trying to do a complicated annual income tax form. My head was whirling from all the forms.
I am paying my Dad's Elder Law Attorney to help walk me through this really big maze, and I was surprised that as simple as my Dad's estate will be, it could take 18 months before distribution.
One saving grace was Dad had his house sold the past summer and the vast majority of his house inventory donated, given away, or trashed. So for me to do his "inventory" of his household goods on the day he passed will be easy since he lived in Memory Care.
With all the grieving, we have this paper mess to contend with. I felt like saying that I would pay a higher tax in order to skip all these documents, etc. :P
Oregon - a muniment is a way to transfer assets of a deceased without going the probate route. It's a " muniment of title" action that is done to do the transfer. Not all states allow for muniments. I think of it as probate low-calorie version btw I'm not an atty.
Muniment does have restrictions, like there need to be no claims against the estate, no debts and the asset is " real propery " like a home or car. So the transfer has no glitches from estate to the individual. So a home owned outright could be transferred via muniment but one with a mortgage or tax liens cannot. Comprende?
Muniment has the advantage that the costs are pretty low along with minimal with go to the courthouse time. For TX, it's about $ 600 - $ 800 and 3 or 4 courthouse runs & you can do a muniment pro se too although i think you have to be a resident of the state. All of Which is less than probate atty (3K to start......) & the probate courts costs & other documentation costs.
Muniment won't work for me so I'm amidst traditional probate. Moms estate has class 1, 2& 3 claims and the MERP class 7 claim as well. Can we say FUN!
Oregongirl is right, estate expenses mount up and up and up... When I helped to set up cremation for my wife's mom I couldn't believe how much that cost, not to mention the various levels of quality for an urn! Unbelievable.
Anyway, this article is surely a giant help... but I would add the critical need for competent help, legal and management wise. I have to say all those folks who try to get through the probate process without a probate attorney are going to regret it, at least most will. I say it's worth every penny. Families who think they are saving money by not hiring a probate lawyer end up spending more in time and anxiety and stress!
Another important point the article didn't highlight enough, in my opinion, is the expectation of a very long probate process, in most cases -- plus the ability for heirs to get ahold of advance inheritance cash, long before probate closes, which is often 12, 15, 18 months -- and frequently longer. It would help to warn heirs of an estate in probate that it's going to be a long bumpy ride -- usually without any cash coming in for most heirs until probate is over.
It’s clear that many heirs go into probate thinking their inheritance is coming to them fairly soon -- hence a lot of excited spending, or expectations of spending, right away. Not so... unless heirs who want or need liquid funds right away figure out how to access inheritance cash soon after probate is filed. Most estate lawyers won't help with this.... Nor will banks or credit unions. I think the article might have delved into this. I’ve noticed that most “informed” heirs that want some of their inheritance cash ASAP look into inheritance loans online, soon after probate is filed -- researching inheritance loans, probate loans, probate advances, inheritance advances, estate loans, and so on, with established inheritance advance firms like www.heiradvance.com, or www.inheritanceadvance.com, or www.inheritancenow.com.... Inheritance advance providers with some history, and a good rep. It used to be just the very poor who went down this road... not any more. These days you see middle class and upper middle class people applying for a probate loan or inheritance loan, or a 72 hr. inheritance advance, quite soon into the probate process. Many people these days are short on cash, or are worried about it. Unless you're one of the 1% or 2%'rs -- you know what I'm talking about. As an heir of a probate, unless we have a lot of cash in the bank, the easiest thing for us to do if we need immediate funds is to borrow from our very own inheritance. Makes sense to me. So I thought I’d add my own two cents worth to this excellent article, if anyone is interested…
PCOG Coercing, that must be the word every attorney uses in helping a family member get what they THINK they are owed. Contesting a Will should be against the law when the person that was caring for the patient has given everything except the blood in their body. It is amazing that these people who cause trouble were never available or willing to help you while you did the care giving. It must take a lot of HATE ENERGY to contest a Will. If the person who died could wake up and see the mess someone is making, I can only imagine what they would say.
Remember the attorneys know how much you have money wise, and they will use it all up. I promise. In the end no one will get more than the attorney - in most cases. By the way, what is a MUNIMENT?? Just curious
My son called me today and said stop worrying about needing money for your care and please do something for yourself. I have a good job and will take care of you when the time comes. I truly do not believe my son understands what caring for someone entails. It is not easy and it is very hard, physically and emotionally. I want to die at home for sure.
Mallory, it sure is expensive. With the two funeral homes, it came to 3900.00. Now the motel where my kids and I will stay. Dinner afterwards for about 10 to 12 people and the list goes on. But, I have not seen the relatives from Germany in two years. I can hardly wait to see his sister. Even tho she does not speak English and I speak very little German, we get along so well. I have two months to settle down before the Memorial.
I have never seen so much paperwork. I have not seen the top of my dining room table in weeks. I started working on the paperwork while he was passing. His hospital bed was right next to the couch I slept on. It kept me busy doing paperwork while he was sleeping. Today I met with one of the Investment counselors. I think he thought I was just going to sign the papers, but I questioned him on EVERYTHING. I wanted to understand what he is doing with the money and to be wise with it. After-all my Partner worked long and hard to get enough in there to take care of me when I need care.
Durable POA dies with the deceased as well. Who is executing the will? They are the only one with the legal authority to establish an account for the estate of from which expenses and debts are paid. Sorry. One more headache.
Mallong8r, We have a Trust and a pour over Will. Before he died, I had a Durable Power of Attorney and a POA for healthcare. I know the POA Healthcare dies with the death of the Trustee. I am not sure about the Durable POA, as you still need money. Like you said, funerals are SO expensive. He had paid for his site thank goodness. But, he died in Oregon and is going to Ca for burial. So, I had to have a license to carry the ashes over State line. Then when I get to Ca., it has to be changed to a license for CA. I cannot believe how much it cost to have to use two funeral homes. Flowers, music. I still have not found a minister for the Memorial. I is not until October. As for the house, it is mine as he gifted it to me. Now I have to face taxes. If the son who was kept out of the Will contests this, and it is overturned, it will be heartbreaking to me. I am keeping records of what is being done to care for the home and gardens etc. Why do people think they can cause so much grief when I am already in terrible grief over loosing my Love. It is just mean. There is not enough cash to make this effort of his. He and his wife just hate me. His sister told me no one in the family is going to give me trouble. Maybe she will settle him down. I have about 6 people (including his sister) coming from Germany. Maybe she will have a talk with that son. That son did not even show up to say goodbye to his father and has not visited him for three years. So sad
For my mom's estate, everything was titled in her Trust, or had beneficiary designations. The contents of her home was also iincluded in Trust. So for my situation, the lawyer said there's no need to go to Probate. Laws might be different in your state. Burial expenses--my mom's were mostly pre-paid except for lunch, and some flowers, music and other details were more expensive than the standard pre-paid budget (I mean like only $250 for flowers was way too low, and $100 for musicians didn't even cover one). Those expenses got paid out of mom's Trust checking account. If she did not have a Trust checking account I wouldn't have had any money to work with--all other accounts were titled to go to her 5 kids, upon death, so it's really important for the Executor / Trustee to have a good chunk of change to deal with additional burial expenses, as well as getting a house for sale (which can take 10-20,000), plus, the house has ongoing expenses like AC, lights, gas, water, garbage (lots when you're cleaning it out!), lawncare, association fee for the pool & clubhouse even if she's dead her house still owes that fee..... overall you should check your state's laws on which estates need to go thru Probate. They will have that info on their state's website, I'm sure, since it is a FAQ after someone dies. Good.luck!
Do I need to do a probate if there is a trust? Expenses of burial and things associated with the burial - are they taken off the top of whatever funds are in the trust?
Sly101, it might be the case with your dad, if he died with no home, no car, and nothing in the bank, 5 here is basically no estate. If there were some minimal amount of personal property left the state wouldn't waste their time trying to liquidate that. So, what is your question then? You've mentioned Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. All of those stop once dad dies. Only Medicaid would be looking to claw back any money. (Or a self-pay nursing home with unpaid bills, but if there's no estate left, they could get Medicaid reimbursement or write it off as a bad debt). I don't know what your questions would be otherwise.
What happens when they die like my father did and owned no home and had expensive wepons etc .no will owned cars etc .. . never appraised and around two years ago went into a nursing home for short term rehabilitation that my neice who works as a activities director at same nursing home that he went into for his leg . he retired from oakridge goverment plant and her or my sister around the time was on his bank account and he had to much in it .. one of them .. her or her mothercstarts drawing it out to keep the nursing home from getting it in tennessee . How do I get medicare or Medicaid to check this out ?? How do I do this all ? When he came out my daughter claimed he said they took all his money ! Can I get his medical records as his daughter ? And how do I get social security involved in his bank account and the nursing home that has a reputation that employs my niece that claimed on hid obituary she was his care giver in which he drove up to the day he died and they only lived a few min away and he layed dead for days before my other sister sent her friend up to check on him . when he was found . He rented from the neice who works for this nursing home and the electric was in her name ! How do I get social security involved for the time he went into the nursing home and the bank account ??
Beth - your state laws regarding probate will determine if an attorney is required. Sometimes you cannot be pro se no matter how simple the estate or how few assets.
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Understanding Probate and Estate Administration
My parents had a trust document, but probate was required because no one had been listed as a beneficiary in the brokerage account to which the securities had been transferred, and the fact that the trust document listed them and designated us as beneficiaries wasn't considered sufficient for the brokerage firm, so the latter required probate. My sister and I were "on the same page" with everything, so this made the process much easier. Although she was named the executrix and I was the "backup" she had much less experience with financial issues so I did most of the work and she just signed the forms. She was in no hurry to be bothered with all this, and was happy to get it done as simply and quickly as possible. I didn't encourage rushing into this process because I didn't want to appear greedy.
Tax forms have been filed, but now my sister and I must pay taxes on the dividends generated by the stocks since our mother's death.
www.patwoodlaw.com/probate-law
day happens. Any advice would be appreciated.
I can't allow this to keep eating at me and not do nothing legally about it????
Guess it is best for me not to overthink this... my OCD tends to kick in on things like this.
I remember many decades back when my Mom's parents had passed, they owned a business which was part of the estate. It took 10 years to probate because one of Mom's sisters was suing the Estate because she didn't like what she was inheriting, then she would change Attorneys and start from scratch. It would have made a good Bravo series.
About the inventory - even those used clothing at the NH have a value! My atty put it down as $ 700 as something needs to be put into personal inventory.
The one good thing with probate is that you do not have to rush to do anything or close it out. I learned this from my first ever probate guy when I dealt with an aunt's estate of which I was named and totally unexpectedly, probate can move glacially. This is my 3rd executrix rodeo, first one was 4+ years, 2nd was within a year and now I'm going into year 2 for my mom's. Each quite different creatures to deal with. BTW for the first one there was quite a bit of value of the estate and I was paid a fee (% of estate) plus a draw for expenses which did add up as "foreign" assets involved….sounds all intriguing but really means property in another state or county were in the assets.
So, hello Probate.... my gosh, it is 10x worse then trying to do a complicated annual income tax form. My head was whirling from all the forms.
I am paying my Dad's Elder Law Attorney to help walk me through this really big maze, and I was surprised that as simple as my Dad's estate will be, it could take 18 months before distribution.
One saving grace was Dad had his house sold the past summer and the vast majority of his house inventory donated, given away, or trashed. So for me to do his "inventory" of his household goods on the day he passed will be easy since he lived in Memory Care.
With all the grieving, we have this paper mess to contend with. I felt like saying that I would pay a higher tax in order to skip all these documents, etc. :P
Muniment does have restrictions, like there need to be no claims against the estate, no debts and the asset is " real propery " like a home or car. So the transfer has no glitches from estate to the individual. So a home owned outright could be transferred via muniment but one with a mortgage or tax liens cannot. Comprende?
Muniment has the advantage that the costs are pretty low along with minimal with go to the courthouse time. For TX, it's about $ 600 - $ 800 and 3 or 4 courthouse runs & you can do a muniment pro se too although i think you have to be a resident of the state. All of Which is less than probate atty (3K to start......) & the probate courts costs & other documentation costs.
Muniment won't work for me so I'm amidst traditional probate. Moms estate has class 1, 2& 3 claims and the MERP class 7 claim as well. Can we say FUN!
Anyway, this article is surely a giant help... but I would add the critical need for competent help, legal and management wise. I have to say all those folks who try to get through the probate process without a probate attorney are going to regret it, at least most will. I say it's worth every penny. Families who think they are saving money by not hiring a probate lawyer end up spending more in time and anxiety and stress!
Another important point the article didn't highlight enough, in my opinion, is the expectation of a very long probate process, in most cases -- plus the ability for heirs to get ahold of advance inheritance cash, long before probate closes, which is often 12, 15, 18 months -- and frequently longer. It would help to warn heirs of an estate in probate that it's going to be a long bumpy ride -- usually without any cash coming in for most heirs until probate is over.
It’s clear that many heirs go into probate thinking their inheritance is coming to them fairly soon -- hence a lot of excited spending, or expectations of spending, right away. Not so... unless heirs who want or need liquid funds right away figure out how to access inheritance cash soon after probate is filed. Most estate lawyers won't help with this.... Nor will banks or credit unions. I think the article might have delved into this. I’ve noticed that most “informed” heirs that want some of their inheritance cash ASAP look into inheritance loans online, soon after probate is filed -- researching inheritance loans, probate loans, probate advances, inheritance advances, estate loans, and so on, with established inheritance advance firms like www.heiradvance.com, or www.inheritanceadvance.com, or www.inheritancenow.com.... Inheritance advance providers with some history, and a good rep. It used to be just the very poor who went down this road... not any more. These days you see middle class and upper middle class people applying for a probate loan or inheritance loan, or a 72 hr. inheritance advance, quite soon into the probate process. Many people these days are short on cash, or are worried about it. Unless you're one of the 1% or 2%'rs -- you know what I'm talking about. As an heir of a probate, unless we have a lot of cash in the bank, the easiest thing for us to do if we need immediate funds is to borrow from our very own inheritance. Makes sense to me. So I thought I’d add my own two cents worth to this excellent article, if anyone is interested…
Remember the attorneys know how much you have money wise, and they will use it all up. I promise. In the end no one will get more than the attorney - in most cases. By the way, what is a MUNIMENT?? Just curious
I have never seen so much paperwork. I have not seen the top of my dining room table in weeks. I started working on the paperwork while he was passing. His hospital bed was right next to the couch I slept on. It kept me busy doing paperwork while he was sleeping. Today I met with one of the Investment counselors. I think he thought I was just going to sign the papers, but I questioned him on EVERYTHING. I wanted to understand what he is doing with the money and to be wise with it. After-all my Partner worked long and hard to get enough in there to take care of me when I need care.