Stuck with mother in law... the saga continues. Could the doctor be wrong?

Agree with myownlife - sounds like Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Find a rented room somewhere, pay the deposit, make HER sign the paper.
Change the locks on your place.
I don't see how she could add things to your health account without your permission so if this happened take legal advise and sue her and the charging medical facility - this is fraud.
I do think PandabearAUS has a very good point, there are a lot of inconsistencies here (and in some of the responses).

Evict her. Go through the process, and finalize and do NOT let her back in.

Honestly, sounds like typical narcissistic personality disorder.

My Mom is 94 and I know she is NPD as well the current dementia. But long ago, I remember when I visited in between travel jobs when I visited, I remember not being able to find a few things when I was packing to leave. Such as a pair of pants and tops mixed in her closet. No, it was no accident. There were other things as well. She always saw me as an extension of herself and did not want to be separated from me. She has been so manipulative about so many things over the years. That is exactly what your situation sounds like. And the only option is to get her out and stay away.

Read all the postings about NPD.... you will see that is exactly what she is. There may be other issues, diagnoses as well but manipulation and presenting herself as "the queen" and in the right is a key element of narcissism.

For the HSA thing, I would report her and make sure YOU are the only one who can use your HSA and any other thing. Maybe you need to call credit bureaus as well and put a freeze on your accounts.

And how old is she? You mention you and your family are young. Unless she has been declared incompetent, she is an adult with full decision-making power. It is NOT up to you to find housing or apply for assistance or anything like that. THAT is up to HER. You just do the eviction... she will have a 30-day notice to make plans; if she does not, that is on her, NOT you!!!

P.S. Mary Kathleen has a great response below. Your responsibility is to you and your daughter! You will learn a great lesson with all of this..... if your husband does not come around and support you with a united effort, he never will. You should find out early on whether he is 100% supportive of getting her out of your lives. If he isn't, better you should know now and get on with you and your daughter's lives.

This is just truly sad all around. It’s a total nightmare! Hope it works out somehow for everyone’s sake.

Still think this post is not legit and is nothing more than pot stirring amusement for someone

Oh yes. I remember you very well. You break everything down to a spreadsheet. You made a 78 year old woman get a job. As I said before. I don’t care much for my MIL but I would never sit down to a meal and let her watch me eat

Her behavior doesn't sound like dementia. More like mental illness. You can evict her legally but it takes 30 days and might have a cost attached. Not sure what happens if she refuses, but i would check to see if police can forcibly remove her. True, that does beg the question where will she go? Find section 8 housing for her in advance so she can't say she has no place to go. Or someone who needs a roommate. Your husband needs to man up and stop making you the "bad guy". Also, the HSA thing is weird...she can't use those funds unless she's actually your dependent (but this may be the case!) If not, you are out of compliance with your HSA plan and there may be tax consequences for you around that.

For those posting that she should get reevaluated and taken here and there...please. This women isn't going to cooperate. Send her to another friend or relative's house for a 30-day "vacation". While she's gone make sure her mail goes to a PO Box and get your address off anything that is her bill. Put her crap in storage. Change the locks. Then you legally don't have to let her back in.

Have you Applied for food stamps for her or other assistance? Just got my dad approved for his medical assistance and other support. It's only a little help, but it's better than nothing.

Does she have Social Security (which she should have unless she was working under the table), and there is the alternate of SSI if she qualifies. Also, check for Independent Living rather than AL; or Section 8. It sounds like she should be qualified for one or the other. She might have to sell the car to qualify?? They very often have waiting lists, so get on one.

Maybe the OP & child did have to move out...

Hope the story had a better outcome though (than OP fleeing own home in bleached & scisored clothes...?)

I think I would move out with my kids. She can't afford a car, so it should go. You can get a lot of Lyft rides for $700. I think this has to be between your husband and her, though. And I don't think it is dementia, I think she has probably always been this way, but as she gets older her inhibitions are getting weaker, so she is more brazen.

There are alot of thoughts and suggestions.
None of us know all the facts. We don't know if your MIL has a mental health problem or what type of life she has had in the past.
I would definitely go to the doctor and explain how all the family are suffering especially your daughter. Maybe a break away would be good thing for you and daughter. To see how your husband copes without you and has to look after his mum.
All this has to be damaging your health,marriage and could do alot of harm to you daughter.
Good luck x

Jomieshell we haven’t hear from you in6 days. Are you making decisions? I always wonder about people who post an issue and never get back to the suggestions given. I find that odd

Id be very mindful of what you say around her. Dont start fights, walk away. She could decide to get mad and report you for elder abuse, or even better; get a neighbor to do it. That way she can look helpless and the poor victim. She can say I didnt do it they did.

She has already manipulated your husband/you to letting her move in. Got neighbors to buy her a new tire. If she talks bad about you to yor daughter, what is she saying to friends, coworkers, neighbors, husband? She said something so they would buy her the tire. Be very careful around her.

If you have a fight at home, she could run over to neighbors and cry. Police get called. You look horrible in their eyes if she says you wont feed her, and want to put her out on the street. This could play out badly. Elder abuse. Even tho it wasnt that way.
If she is that manipulative its a personality disorder, not dementia. That wont change now.

Work on your husb, but try to make it a united front. If you get mad in the heat of the moment and say its her or me! It wont work. He'll have to pick his mom. She gave birth to him and she's elderly. He cant abandon his mom. He just cant, even if he's sick of her antics. He knows he will look like the worst person on the planet. It wont look so bad if wife leaves. See the difference? How it will look to the world? The wife will be made out to be the nasty one, not the poor frail elderly mom dependant on her son. She will guilt him. So dont make him choose. Just keep reminding him of all the stress, and how she will have more friends/soc life, happier, in an elderly apt around people her age. She will be close by, but wont depend on him for everything. She will have things to do. Relieves the tension, everyone will be happy. Go that route. You will have better luck w husband that way.

Well, none of this sounds like dementia to me. My experience, (and this is my opinion only, with a family of mentally ill persons) would lead me to believe that this is plain old mental illness, self-treated by habitual manipulation of circumstances on her part. The immediate gratification, control issue, sabotage, pretend-victimizing, refusal to cooperate...yeah, I have seen all this before, with false reports to neighbors, etc. I drew the line at abuse of my kids, and putting my family in danger of legal troubles, and putting ME in a position where I could not longer empathetically assist a person needing a level of objective care. In other words, I was no longer able to care for someone like that, so before everything went to hell, I quit. To help someone like this you must be stronger than them, smarter than them, less vulnerable than them, with less to lose. It doesnt matter how much it costs...get her out, wash your hands, you could end up in jail for elder abuse, with thousands of dollars in legal fees. If she is this poor, she needs a lawyer well versed in Medicaid options and a diagnosis from a doc (neuropsychologist, maybe?) to find out what is going on...without a preconceived notion or diagnosis of dementia. If this behavior has been going on for a long time, it is unlikely to be suddenly physiological, but strokes can certainly totally change someone's personality...but you do not have on your own oxygen mask and are no longer seeing things clearly, you are unable to take effective care of this person without a terrible personal toll on your life, and if it were me, with what I know now about my self, and the teeny bit I have read about your issue...I would walk away, even if necessary move to another state for a few months, and not be anywhere in the vicinity when this all blows. I do wish you the best of luck, and hope I havent offended you. Id run, not walk, all she has to do is call APS or get a neighbor to do so...and you will have real problems on your hands.

The more this post goes on the more it feels wrong. Feels like stirring the pot

Will start off with the food - I don't care if she buys food or not, she should never be excluded from a meal that was cooked. Sorry. Most people toss more than enough food to feed one person. If she has certain things that only she likes, then ok, let her bring them in, but you are stepping in the middle of your husband's back when you expect him to eat a meal and point blank tell his mom she's not invited. Not feeding someone has taken it to the level of being petty (in my opinion).

Next, how could her doctor even have access to your HSA card? There's something missing in the part of the story. If she took your card, that's a problem. Call the doctor and tell them you expect every cent to be refunded to your card and she can pay the bill the next time she goes in.

She doesn't need an evaluation. She seems to be pretty clear in her thinking. It's time to sit down with her bank account papers, check book, etc to find out exactly how much income she has coming in. Then set the monthly amount she will pay in rent. Take your bills, excluding mortgage because only you will ever benefit from that, and tally up what is used for utilities, groceries, cable (if she's a tv watcher) and divide it up between the total number of people in your house. That will give you a roundabout figure to work with and include meals. Can she even afford that amount? If not, you're going to have to be more realistic in what she can pay.

If she can afford to live in an apartment, you may be shooting yourself in the foot when you draw a line in the sand about refusing to pay the deposit for her to move. A deposit and a move job would be much cheaper in the long run than what you're arguing about right now. But, even before you find the apartment, she has to sit down and lay out all her cards so you will know how much rent she can afford. $700 being spent for car/insurance would buy quite a few uber rides each month if she really doesn't like to drive anymore.

I have to commend your MIL for being able to get a job. That is amazing. You cant look at your MIL like a horrible person or the enemy in your house, altho she has done some underhanded things.
If she hosted your family for dinner did she charge you per person for the meal? Probably not.
If you try to pit her son against her it will backfire on you.
You have to try to get husb to help get her into an aging apartment close by. Your gonna have to be supportive of him to try do do this. You have to walk that delicate line until shes gone. You have to say she will have more friends/ active soc life there than sitting at home doing nothing.
You have to be very careful or you will be in the crappy apt with daughter while she enjoys her son all to herself.

Have you ever considered that she's just a self-centered nasty person? Many of her behaviors sound that way. All craziness is not a sign of dementia!

What you dealing with is not dementia, but possibly a narcissistic personality. She should be evaluated by a psychiatrist to see what the actual diagnosis is, but she is clearly displaying behavioral disorders. Also ask the psychiatrist about sociopathic behaviors. Destroying your clothes and property demonstrates very disturbing behaviors that are not appropriate, but very self centered.

I would call the doc's office and get her removed from HSA card ASAP. While your at it yell at them to put the $ back and charge her like they were supposed to to begin with. That is outright fraud! Tell them you wont be a part of that. You could get in trouble for not doing anything and knowing. How can they just add a grown family member to your HSA account??? That sounds very illegal to me. Usually its husband/wife/ kids. Since when does extended family get added in any time? I would also have them put in her chart that she is NOT to be added to any family insurance. That it is illegal and you will prosecute them if it conts to happen. I also believe they are contributing to fraud. Tell them you dont care if she manipulated them by crying and playing victim. Your not going to jail for fraud. They can make phone calls and reverse that. If they refuse, call the HSA# and get her taken off. Tell them what happened. They can bill her directly.
Next Id make sure your purse/credit card and insurance/bank statement info is securely locked up. Not just in bedroom but under lock and key hidden from now on. No mail left sitting out. If she is capable of ins fraud she could do other damage. (She took your phone/ruined clothes). Write down all bank/cc info so you have contact info at the ready. Check it weekly.

Then Id sit down with hubby calmly and tell him it isnt working. Home should be a haven and its now a hostile battle ground. Your husb is not going to be able to choose. He has to help working on a solution to get her, her own place. Say it calmly. No yelling. Daughter and you have a right to be in happy home not stressful. Say it calmly.
MIL will flip, but to bad. She can move close by, but she has lost her privilege sabotaging the family.
Do NOT sign anything for mom when getting a place. You will end up being responsible/paying.

I would contact dept of aging in your county. They may be able to help. Maybe a lawyer to draw up a proper legal eviction notice for her since she feels entitled to live there. I dont think words are enuff to get her to move. She will call your bluff and not make any effort to move. Them play helpless victim. She can be given 2 months to find a place. She needs to see legal paper.

Make sure to tell him, hes not choosing one over the other, but just making the family situation less stressful. Or else he wont be able to choose, and will end up doing nothing, as most guys will. He will happily let you be the bad guy. So he looks good in mom's eyes. You will become the bad guy to both of them. You are the only one complaining. So you must tell him he's not abandoning mom, just putting a little distance there for everyones sanity. Your house is your castle. There cant be 2 queens running it. She can be close by. You have a right to a stress fee home.
You have to make sure he knows that he is not choosing one or the other, just helping all parties with less stress. Let us know how it goes. Feel free to vent any time. Im sure your home is a pressure cooker.

As for food just let her eat. Choose your battles. Your getting her out, but meals will be less tense. Your husb can pay for the groceries lol. Also refuse to engage her when she says nasty things. She will stop if she cant get a response. If she says nasty things when husbs isnt around, Id record her and get cams. Only use it as a very very last resort. He wont believe you otherwise. Dont let anyone, even daughter know you are recording. You use that as last resort. You cant lead with Im leaving and taking daughter. Only use that as last case scenario. Get your ducks in a row b4 you do that.

Start to have a date night w daughter. Gets you out of the house, some pos bonding time, and less stress. Can be a movie, the park or just a walk. Husb can make moms dinner and see how living w her by himself is no fun.
Stop making everything about $$$, she didnt pay for meals, etc. He'll just resent you for that.

Your husband will not allow his family to live away from him? You are not a prisoner, he cannot stop you from leaving. You need to get your child away from her. She is your first responsibility.

Reading this, I can see a couple of things that ought to be part of the equation. First, does she have Social Security or SSI? if she is actually capable of basic daily life, a subsidized independent living facility would be a lot cheaper than AL, and there is still usually some onsite management. (78 isn't necessarily old; and I work full time. I live with a daughter and we stay out of each other's hair. My MIL lived alone with family nearby until 76, and did miracles with SSI and a garden.) Talk to the local elder care authorities for suggestions if you haven't already done so.

I missed earlier post.. does your MIL have any money, if not how will you get her into assisted living if you are not able to financial support her now.
I think it is sad that a 78 year old has to find a job to pay her way, dies she not have SS and is she eligible for some assistance.
She may be suffering from anxiety or another illness and overall I agree you should have her evaluated but do not give up on her..you are her only family.

Her moving with you was the first mistake. Then paying all her bills after she told you she would pay them herself, is really bad. Sounds like she is a manipulator, you need to get her out of your house. What does your husband have to say??

Your MIL is a manipulative, selfish human being - no doubt about it. I bet she showed signs of similar behaviors when she was younger - so it may not be a dementia thing. I would recommend that you start keeping a "log" of these behaviors with dates and times; try to back-track and include the previous ones also.  

I would recommend that you have private meetings with (1) your husband and (2) her physician - and confront both of them with the "documented evidence" of her bizarre behaviors.

Her behavior is a lot like a person with a psychiatric illness - not necessarily dementia. (I used to be a psych RN.) You are correct that YOU will need to be the ones to move her out, because she clearly won't do it herself.

Her putting her copays on YOUR card is a felony, since she is not on your health insurance and it is not her bank account! You could have her arrested, if you wanted to do that.

Please keep setting boundaries and putting your foot down!

Just coming in on this discussion and you have had some wonderful responses and suggestions. I'm a social worker and was the director of admissions at a local long term care facility so I'm not entirely without experience. She may or may not have dementia and you can certainly get a second opinion - although unless she is declared incompetent by a doctor, you can't force her to see a physician. My question -- has she always been this way? Is she mean spirited towards other people (those nice neighbors, the folks she works with, etc)? Was she this manipulative of your husband when you married him? Did she manage to hide it from you and/or your husband? Does your husband notice that she is doing this to his family or does he only notice when things come to a head and you (or your child) say something or is upset. It sounds to me like your husband, hardworking, caring, loving as he is, needs to step up. It's his mother, not yours. Of course, remember that when he steps up, it's still going to be your fault ("she's turned him against me"). He should find her behavior as unacceptable as you and he needs to be at the forefront of finding a solution. I can see her stalling if and when she gets a letter from HUD housing. She'll need to bring in documentation of income etc and I'm willing to be she "won't be able to locate" anything they request. If she stalls long enough, they will bypass her and she be still in your home. In any event you and your husband are between a rock and a lava flow - not an easy or enviable position.
Remember unless she is declared incompetent she can't be forced to be evaluated by a new doctor. If she's alert, oriented, smart and evil (sounds like she has the last one down pat) she knows that the threat to place her in a nursing home is an empty one. What would the reason for admission and who would pay for her? Her $1000/mo is not going to cover a month and she, in other words you.... will need to apply for Medicaid. BTW medicaid will need even more documents than HUD. It's time to get things in order before you really need them.

It wish you good luck and blessings in this difficult situation. Please keep us updated.

Your MIL was always an evil woman. Look what she did lying to her son when he was young. What's dementia got to do with it? She knows what she is doing. She needs to get out of your lives. What is "normal aging" anyhow? I am the same age as MIL and I have a few health issues but I take care of myself, manage my own life, live in a very nice independent living place and would never impose on anyone else. Where I live, many people older than myself do well on their own.
I suspect she has always been a controlling hateful person. That does not have to mean mental illness! She may want to ruin her son's marriage. Unfortunately, he has not been able to deal with the harm she has done to him in the past. I would hope he might get help instead of trying to take care of her. She does not love or care about him. She is a user. We all have to take care of ourselves. The hateful little things she is doing out of spite are very bad and could get worse if she is allowed to stay in YOUR home. Get her out now! It is your choice and you don't need experts help. But put your foot down, tell husband she must go. Don't forget to change the locks after you get her out. You are living with an enemy.

Wow - if we look up nasty MIL, would her picture be there? My former MIL was not nearly that nasty, but definitely tended to be manipulative and authoritative. Fortunately we never had to live with her!

In your case, the situation needs resolution. Having read the responses, I would agree that counseling for you, your daughter AND your husband might be in order at some point. He might need it sooner, to get him into "Action mode." You can at least start by reassuring your daughter that what grandma says/does is not normal and for her to try to ignore it. My ex and his second wife used to say horrible things to my children about me - I don't feed them enough, I don't take good care of them, I don't even like them! I just calmIy asked them if they were hungry and said if so there's food here and here or they can ask me (their response was no.) I asked them if they felt they needed something or that I wasn't caring for them, they said no. I laughed at the last one, and said if I didn't like you, you would be living with him! I was also "blamed" for a lot of his issues, so I just laughed and took on blame for ANY shortcomings in the world! They learned to ignore it.

I also concur that this isn't likely dementia. She was unstable before and that hasn't changed (or has upped her game.) She knows/has learned how to play the manipulation game. While dementia patients could possibly do stuff like this, they wouldn't be able to maintain it.

Beware of finding a place and paying first/last/security - IF you sign your name, you will be paying for this forever and a day! It might be less expensive for you to find a safe place for yourself and your daughter to move to. If hubby truly wants resolution, he would have to work on that while you two are away. You say he is willing to do what must be done to prevent you moving away - hold him to that.

Because she has limited income/assets, perhaps she can qualify for Medicaid and find a Medicaid AL facility? It might be a good time to make inquiries with a good attorney - most will give you a limited initial consult for free - they might have ideas on how best to handle this situation. If not, they could help you file for separation (just another prod to get hubby "motivated") which could get you child support to assist in paying for another residence. That might also get the wheels in his head moving.

I also think installing some nanny-cams would be a good idea, especially if you stay in the same home or until you move out. Put them in locations where you might "catch" her behavior (laundry, daughter's room, any place she might try something underhanded.) This would provide video proof of her behavior - documenting it only won't be enough (your word vs hers.) Hubby might need to see this for himself to prod him into action, especially in regards to your vulnerable daughter. Be sure to hide them well and don't put them up when she is around!

Quick lookup on the HSA (never used it myself) says it CAN be used for immediate family and dependents. Is she claimed as a dependent? Even if she is, it should have been processed through YOU, not her. If she is NOT a dependent, I would ask the doctor office to reimburse your account and for them to bill her.

Although your lease is probably for a year, consider moving out when the lease is done, if not before (you and daughter.) Did MIL sign lease? If not, if you move elsewhere without her when the lease is up, she becomes a squatter and would be evicted (problem with this is those damn filial laws!) You could just tell her that lease is up, owner is not renting anymore and she'll have to find a place because the new place you are moving to isn't big enough.

The last thing I suggest is reporting it to your doctors. Generally at a visit they might ask if you feel "safe" in your own home. When you see your/daughter's doc, even if they don't ask, I would bring this up with them. They might be able to initiate something.

So from my perspective 78 means she has more options (she may not like them but she has them) because she is past "retirement" age and can collect SS as well as any pension or other benefits she has coming. Some people at 78 are still very much able to work if they choose, some prefer it, live alone and care for themselves, behave like a 60 year old. Others are aging less gracefully and either have physical or cognitive decline that require more actual care-giving. Either way while each individual is responsible for themselves, yes it's not your fault or responsibility that she didn't manage her finances well, we also feel some responsibility and want to help care for them spend time with them as their children. So while your DH may have somewhat of a blind spot here it's perfectly natural and I would guess expected if you are married to him, that he want's to help her and not toss her out. That doesn't mean making your household intolerable or "choosing her over his wife and child", in fact drawing a clearer line for her may indeed be taking better care of her than letting her run rough shot. But it sounds like perhaps things have gotten to a stage where you are no longer working as a team on this and instead letting it divide you. When it comes to caring for our aging parents the love and support of our spouses and significant others is so important, they are often the ones who can help us see the forest beyond the trees and just let us vent when we need that. I didn't find this info but is he an only child or are their siblings? You obviously have been this support for him given that you planned for her moving with and in with you in the first place so fairly or not, consciously or not, he may be confused by what feels like a sudden turn around from you and is turtling because he doesn't know what else to do. He feels stuck between a partner who cared about his mother too at one point and a mother who he is drawn to help and likely still sees through rose colored glasses even though he believes and knows she is behaving badly it is easier to believe it's medically driven somehow and it may be. I would urge you to try and find that supportive spot again with DH where you help him see the facts and decide how to proceed without attacking his mom or his devotion to her.
Now MIL has options you just need to help her son stick to them as he helps her choose and accomplish, you can be the back up more behind the scenes but the exchanges with her about what needs to happen really have to be between them, take yourself out of the middle. If she chooses not to work and live off of her SS she needs to do that, paying for herself. If that means Medicaid, so be it and if that means giving up her expensive car and replacing it with something more in her price range... At this point she seems to have written her walking papers from your home so unless she chooses to make a great turn around this responsibility for herself financially means finding her own place too. Doesn't have to be far away, it might be a room in someones house or a small retirement community apartment and if she can't do that for herself DH needs to help (with you behind the scenes) locate 2 or 3 options and walk her through choosing one. Gather the info about assistance available and help her apply, start going to doctors appointments and make sure legal paperwork is in order (POA etc) and get her a neuro psyc eval (a baseline in case it's helpful later) to see if medication or something might help. Sounds like she was very independent prior and still appears very capable of being so but maybe there is something going on she isn't sharing that has her fearful. She is now dealing with new providers she may not trust yet that don't know her or you & DH so you guys might persist more, help her settle. She and DH may each be more frighted than either admit. Don't make your home as "comfortable", expectations and living up to rent promise she has to figure out. Take bk p

Your husband might be inspired to find a solution more quickly if he is solely responsible for his mother's care, while you and your daughter take an extended summer vacation. Truth is they are both dependent on you, and so long as you are there to carry the burden, they will continue to take advantage. He will complain that he doesn't have time, he has to work, etc. Parents and children everywhere have to juggle multiple responsibilities, it's time for him to figure out how. Ulterior motive: something tells me she's not going to be "good as gold" for him, she's going to be just as demanding and he will tire of that quickly. The downside is the possibility he just waits out your return, when your daughter needs to go back to school. (But that tells you something, too.)