My dad died 2 yrs ago. Have not heard anything from sibling or anything anout my dad's will. Sibling is in Canada.
I just got a certified letter saying I need to pay for dad's last year at nursing home. My sibling is POA for both parents.
I have no idea why this is coming to me. I was never privy to anything going on with my parents bills, other than to visit them. Or why it took 2yrs to send me a letter from a PA lawyer about a bill. Am I responsible? Im panicking here.
Long story short sibling was still writing checks on a deceased person's account. Thats a big no no. They are supposed to be locked down till probate and then reopened by executor to probably pay Bill's. As poa and supposed executor -didnt notify anyone (accounts) that he died. Wasnt taking care of property, not paying that bill off, and lied in the hearing about a lawyer she spoke to, and caught in shenanigans. They all knew and worked with this lawyer. Said he is upstanding in his field, and wouldnt put his license in jeopardy. They didnt take kindly to that at all. Long story short I was awarded executor. But it is a hollow victory. It's going to be a nightmare to do. Everything is a mess. Sibling wanted to be co-exec and they said no. She had 3 yrs to do something and didnt.
This is not a fun win at all. Sibling took off with all valuables already, and probably all of the rest will go towards medical bills. But at I know what is going on. I wasnt allowed to know anything about moms will and didnt get half the assets. I suspected I was being lied to and that was the tip of the iceberg.
So the takeaway is if you think shananagans are going on trust your instincts!. Get a lawyer FAST. Dont wait, they can help you and hold that person accountable. There is only a window of opportunity to get that done.
My lawyer also saw that it wasnt just a personal family squabble but real shananagans there.
I'm just afraid I'll still be hit with Bill's that I dont know about, and the estate cant cover.
Was sister suppose to pay the NH out of Dads finances? If so, there should be some kind of adjustment in what she receives.
If you go the "no will" way, maybe she will finally provide the Will but I doubt there is one. Glad things seem to be coming along. Keep us updated.
I heard my moms lawyer retired and died. Then I heard he is still alive. So I dont know. Seems the oddest thing to me, 3 out of 4 wills disappeared. Altho my sister knew what was written in both dads wills. Hmmm pretty strange.
We will go no will now because that is what she told the lawyer. Strange I get 1 story and he gets a another story.
will be interested to read what happens by mid December!
I'm glad things are moving forward, even if the estate assets were as minimal as your sister asserts that is no excuse to sit on things forever!
She could have told nursing home lawyer that she is executor of dads will and has to wait for probate and liquidation of assets to pay off nirsing home dept. That was never mentioned. Only thing mentioned was that she was going to renegotiate the bill down to half of what was owed. My lawyer & nursing home lawyer couldnt believe that. The bill is 2yrs old. Too late.
Lawyer said sis told him dad lost first will. She said 2nd will was done DIY with suzie ormond cd. Bombshell: she said we were both named executors. Say what huh???
This is what I was told: dad had 1st will. It named 2 relatives that were to receive some $. She told him we will never find them now they are grown. Better make another will and one was done. She had it in her possession and is executor. Dont worry about it. She'll take care of it. It would take 4 or more yrs to even start probate bc it's such a long process. It took 4yrs for my moms. It would have taken much longer if moms lawyer didnt tell her to knock it off and get it done. She didnt want to give him list of assets. I asked my lawyer is this normal. He said no way 18months is normal. Unless its lots of properties and complicated. Its not.
My dad was not computer literate. Didnt own a computer, or cell phone, or could even operate a vcr. When my sister came down, my dad was in moderate dementia. No way he would have the mental capacity for that, or to even hold his interest more than 1 mins. I dont believe this at all. I think she has the will, but stated we are both executors to get my to drop lawyer. She never mentioned that to me. So are we lying or lying by omission?
Also my mother, father and sister lost 3 wills out of 4! Can you believe it???
So we have to go the route with no will, and declare that way. Intestate. I had told my lawyer she said she had the will in her possession. Wow. So he said do you want to just do the will alone with her, and keep lawyers out of it? Or do you want to keep going with a lawyer. What do you think I said? He said he can keep her on task and make her accountable. No hiding things or putting it off. It must be liquidated in a timely manner. Like NORMAL. I bet you already know my answer.
My sister had told me before dad died, she was never selling the property, she would rent it out forever. And that it wasnt worth selling bc it wasnt worth anything. They are building new homes in the area. Very big expensive homes. But it's not worth anything. And nothing about the 4 or maybe more storage units. So that's the latest update. A friend told me half of something is better than half of nothing. If you cant guess I'm keeping the lawyer. I'm still in shock over this new development.
I had lost many a sleepless night over doing this. I'm not now since this. If you think the executor is shady. Believe your gut instinct! Dont believe what they tell you. Dont wait. They said I waited too long for mom's will. But better late then never.
Thank you for all the updates on your post.......it’s nice to see that some people don’t get away with stealing assets.
Whenever I see posts like this it tells me I shouldn’t procrastinate any longer & should go see a lawyer.
I thought it was taken care of. Wrong!
I then heard from my lawyer stating nursing home lawyer called him. My sister NEVER spoke to the nursing home lawyer at all. Never called. He asked my lawyer who is paying and why no one contacted him.
Texted sibling and she told me that she took care of it, and is now re-negotiating a new lower bill, and that she and nursing home lawyer had a long chat. All lies. She never talked to him. I think she was afraid to since it was the last min of the last day.
My lawyer tells me she never spoke to the nursing home lawyer at all. I'm still potentially on the hook. So multiple lies texted right to me.
I signed paper work for my lawyer. I cant trust her at all.
Why? Cause your probate attorney - who does litigation- will file in PC for you to be named as “administrator of the Estate with dependent administration” or whatever you state calls that type of authority. Most states have this type of Executor-like authority as an option..... cause folks named as Executor years or decades ago have perhaps died, gone to jail, moved away, gotten infirm, etc & not able to carry out the duties. So there is some sort of simple legal way to do a PlanB. Comprende?
Judges in my experience- Executor x3 - really aren’t gear to have a resident of a foreign country be named Executor or administrator in their court. They kinda want someone local & within thier jurisdiction who can appear in their court on a few days notice or manana if need be or has local attorney known to the court who is named. Even if Sis is named in the will. Your there, live in dads state, his city or county or nearby and that makes you look better suited for the position assuming you have no felonies or judgements, have a job or solid retirement. The “dependent administration” part gets added onto your appointment, & it basically means whatever actions you do will have to be reviewed by the judge before allowed. If for some reason judge won’t name you, they can appoint an outside administrator for the Estate. & you, Jasmina, do whatever to make this administrator your new BFF.
If you think Sissy may try to sell dads property, or has, you can likely monitor courthouse filings. Most CH have on-line viewing capabilities. If it were me, I’d go on line and search dads name & parcel # (it’s on the tax collectors bill) and download all the chain of paperwork on his house or any other real property he might have owned. The downloads should be cheap... like $8 for Warranty Deed, $5 for utility authority Easement. Most places update within couple of days or maybe a week. For under $50 or $100 you can get legal history on his house from when he bought it. If it’s really old filings, the CH ladies will need to do an actual printed set from the archives & get snail mailed to you. It’s good to have all this not only to make sure Sissy isn’t doing crap but there could be something needed legally that’s missing from ages ago that potentially throws a cloud over having a clear clean title.
Also you provide all this to your probate guy. It will save $ cause he’s gonna have his paralegal do it and charge you for their time and downloads otherwise.
She wont let me see the will. Wont tell me what lawyer she is going to use for probate. Wont tell me what lawyer wrote up new will/when.
Before my dad died she was telling me my parents estate was worth nothing. Dont expect anything.
I dont trust her bc people who have nothing to hide dont hide things and play games. She waited till the last second to send in the payment. She jerked me around for 4 days telling me to call her about it, then whoops going out to dinner lol. I'll call later, then didnt bother for 2days.
As a benificiary I'm reading I should have got a statement of sorts on the accounts (from moms estate). I got NOTHING. Not even a paper listing assets.
So far house not sold. I checked. But she is renting the land so getting income from that.
She wont send will to court to start probate. Wont send me a copy. Wont tell me lawyer who did it. Wont tell me about other will. Just that 1st will mentioned giving a small amount of $ to neice/nephew. She said we wont be able to find them, so they changed the will. So to me that means undue influence.
I believe the banks/accounts were never notified he passed. She can liquidate and say nothing left of estate. She took all valuable personal property too. She can make the list of assets and basically say he owns nothing. No one there to question it. She left important assets off the list for my mom. I feel like I've been kicked in the teeth by my entire family.
For Melmark v Shutt, PA state court ruled that PA had precedence on parents filial liability (there was filial requirement) but PA court ruled parents (NJ residents) had no obligation to support / duty of their adult son living in PA at Melmark as ultimately the “conflicts on choice of laws” between NJ & PA were that NJ law for filial responsibility took precedence. NJ doesn’t allow for filial if parents over 55, Alex’s parents were 70 & 68.
It’s pretty unique situation for Shutt, in that NJ was paying for the disabled son LTC stay in PA as at the initial time of sons placement (2007) there wasn’t an appropriate facility in NJ. This was brought about as son had aged out of NJ educational entitlement program for autism as he turned 21. NJ DDD assumed responsibility & placed son, Alex, & NJ paid PA for his stay at Melmark (24/7 for severe developmental disabilities) for years. Parents didn’t place him, even tho they were his legal guardian. It was state of NJ DDD who placed him & paid Melmark at negotiated rate. Then in ‘13, NJ legislation passed to stop funding to outside of state vendors for LTC programs (like at Melmark). Melmark sued the parents for $203k for 2012-2013 cost as state of NJ stopped paying in ‘12. It to me, reads that the case isn’t so much abt getting parents to pay - their like 68 & 70 - but more abt determining who is responsible for what happens for payment when a state changes an established contract & payment without considering safety net aspect. Melmark filed an emergency involuntary commitment & for him to be PA resident in ‘13 but were unsuccessful.
Then it gets very very sad...
Melmark transfers son via Melmark employee to crisis center at Kinney Hospital in Cherry Hill, NJ & refuses to return to take back to Melmark in PA. He is viewed as homeless, has grand mal seizures, shuttled to another interim facility, left alone in a room for 8 days. Parents aren’t clear cut as guardian as state of NJ took over when they placed him in Melmark via NJ DDD in ‘07. Parents are besides themselves & file federal lawsuit against Melmark (Shutt v Melmark, 5/15) for malfeasance, emotional distress, etc. Case is online, multiple places, it’s a horror show to read. Parents complaint denied.
Melmark, I bet, probably wishes they hadn’t done any of this. The parents are involved with Autism awareness. Dad retired Princeton prof & writes no hold barred on challenges of autism & how even those educated & aware have challenges on finding appropriate care.
Eori, well to me, that’s super dysfunctional family drama. Atty son (Joe) has 91 yr old mom living at home w/ $1800 mo. income. Joe sues 2 siblings to share bedridden 24/7 care costs. He says she needs additional $1k a mo. Sister agrees to pay $400 mo. Brother, who legally changed his name, won’t pay as says abuse happened & doesn’t have income to pay. Atty son files for discovery that shows kid brother has 2 “luxury” cars, pays for stepsons college tuitions, makes 60k yr & no filedabuse. Court orders bro to pay $400 mo. Took abt a yr to run thru court. Mom died abt yr later, age 93. In her obit, no mention of any children or grandchildren except for attorney son & his. Bet no family reunion happening. Most families don’t have a attorney sibling & 90+ yr old bedfast mom at home 24/7 care & on $2600 -$2800 a mo.
Filial happens but imo it’s kinda an outlier situation when it does actually happen. It’s the threat of it that makes folks fret.
Scarier take away is the cost..... over $200k for young adult LTC in 2013, $80k for like 5 weeks of rehab over a decade ago. Maybe add 20% onto those bills for 2019. When tsunami of boomers hit needing care, it won’t be supportable for US economy. Not gonna be pretty.
For Pittas, “mom” early 60’s, living in PA where son & 2 daughters lived. Mom in serious auto accident & hospitalized & discharged to rehab (several weeks) & left rehab without discharge but with abt $80k bill. Rehab facility was in a SNF & Rehabilitation Center duo. Not just a NH. Son signed mom’s admissions paperwork & within it was arbitration + clause. Facility part of national chain.
Son did not leave an elderly mom in a NH as a LTC resident.
All this is super duper mucho importante as to why PA filial responsibility ever came into play because.....
- Mom too young for MediCARE, so Medicare 100% coverage post hospitalization rehab for first 20/21 days & 80% from day 21 till 100 was NOT available to pay for her care. Facility not getting MediCARE $.
- Mom like 61. No retirement or Social Security $ to pay bill.
- Mom doesn’t have $, so files LTC Medicaid application, with Son as contact person for Medicaid application.
- As auto accident involved, this puts in play a claim / tort lawsuit. Once again Sonny point person for auto insurance stuff. It is anticipated that auto lawsuit will pay some health care bills.
- mom leaves rehab without being discharged & with bill unpaid
- mom leaves US & back to Greece where husband lives & she’s still a citizen of. Opa!
- Mom not anywhere in US to be served lawsuit or provide info needed for Medicaid or auto insurance stuff. So those go nowhere.
Rehab decides to cast a wider net to find someone in PA to pay the bill as PA has filial responsibility laws. (And this is imo what the OP Jasmina’s dads old NH is doing). Sonny signed off on admissions stuff AND was point person for his mom’s Medicaid application AND whatever auto insurance tort lawsuit would happen, so Sonny gets his mom’s rehab bills addressed to him. Sonny gets an attorney and files as per admissions paperwork for arbitration hearing on the bill.
here’s were it gets interesting....
Arbitration rules in Son’s favor & so not responsible for mom’s bill.
Rehab goes beyond arbitration decision & files lawsuit.
Rehab can ignore arbitration ruling if they wish cause that’s how they have admissions agreement written. Nice!
PA allows for filial responsibility laws and case heard before a solo judge. No jury. Judge rules in corporations favor.
Sonny has like $90k judgement on him.
imo Sonny & his attorney make the mistakes of
- assuming since they “won” in arbitration that it would be a cakewalk to win again & went into court woefully underprepared. If you can get onto WestLawThompson (some regular libraries do), it’s not a pretty read for his being prepared.
AND
- Sonny did not to “enjoin” his 2 sisters in lawsuit. Which would mean shared responsibility for debt if corporate won. All 3 live in PA.
Sonny found responsible for rehab bill, attorney fees & court costs which allows for wage garnishment or lien placement on his assets. Son like in his 30’s, average job, not wealthy.
Pittas not usual elderly stays in NH via post rehab entry. Our elders are gonna be old enough to have MediCARE, MediCARE gap or Advantage plan, SS or other retirement, perhaps a home, savings or investments. MediCARE will be paying hospitalization & some rehab; & SS$ to do a facility copay till they clear Medicaid Pending, so facility is getting some $$ & insurance payments.
& our elders not catching flight to Greece never to return again.
Jasmina, it’s good you have an attorney. But Please inquiry about their experience in dealing successfully with filial.
You are in my thoughts today... (hugs)
The letter is from a lawyer representing the nursing home, not medicaid - from my brief reading on the subject filial responsibility laws do not extend to debts owed to any entity other than the State. In any case she has a lawyer who is working on it - I may be wrong but it really shouldn't matter because:
The OP states that she believes there is property that could be used to pay the bills, but that it is in limbo because no one has gone forward with settling the estate. Whether or not there is a legal Will for either parent still needs to be determined, but there are guidelines that can be followed if there is none or it can't be produced.
In the Pittas case, a private nursing home sued a man to force him to pay his mother's bill. Medicaid was not involved and the PA high court ruled in favor of the nursing home. Another ruling (Eori), also upheld on appeal, ordered a man sued by his own sibling to pay $400 per month for his mother's care (in his brother's home). Again, no Medicaid or governmental agency was involved.
Of course I don't want to cause the OP unnecessary alarm. I think she should get after her lawyer and not wait for him to do something on her behalf.
I haven't read anything that seems to indicate that there is a broad effort to hold adult children responsible for their parent's Medicaid bills.
It doesn't seem to be exactly singular - there are other cases that have successfully cited PA filial law - but I hope that you are right that it isn't a trend.
time for a good lawyer. I am sure they will take you to court to get blood out of a turnip. Be sure to tell and show the lawyer everything. Then be prepared for a fight in court, of some kind.
"Meanwhile, the nursing home sued Mr. Pittas for nearly $93,000 under the state's filial responsibility law, which requires a child to provide support for an indigent parent. The trial court ruled in favor of the nursing home, and Mr. Pittas appealed. Mr. Pittas argued in part that the court should have considered alternate forms of payment, such as Medicaid or going after his mother's husband and her two other adult children.
The Pennsylvania Superior Court, an appeals court, agreed with the trial court that Mr. Pittas is liable for his mother's nursing home debt. The court held that the law does not require it to consider other sources of income or to wait until Mrs. Pittas’s Medicaid claim is resolved. It also said that the nursing home had every right to choose which family members to pursue for the money owed."
https://www.elderlawanswers.com/son-liable-for-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill-under-filial-responsibility-law-9873
The difference in this case seems to be that the parent's estate still owns land. I think that means he wasn't indigent.
@Jasmina I hope you get some satisfaction from your attorney soon.
I understand that the estate has to pay the debts first before money can be distributed to heirs. Perhaps the nursing home let all heirs know that they are expecting payment From The Estate, not the heirs. They can bill you, but you don't have to pay from your own personal funds.
https://money.cnn.com/2014/06/19/pf/inherited-debt-adult-children/index.html
You have the right to be informed and to direct him to contact whomever you like... and in a timely fashion. He may have a plan that involves waiting, for some reason, but he should tell you what he plans to do next, and why, and when. Lawyers are expensive. Your money should buy you a modicum of peace while you wait.
I would call his office first thing Monday morning and tell whomever you speak to that you are very worried about this approaching deadline. Tell the person you want to speak to your lawyer before close of business. (If he provided you with an email address, even better. Write to him and tell him you want him to call you.) Be polite, but firm.
Hopefully by then you can ascertain whether your father's estate still owns that land.
... and if so, is the lawyer aware of that asset?
I guess she had some type of authority to pay his bills.
POA is supposed to stop at death, but how would a bank know he has passed unless an Executor or someone else notified them. If not she could still have access to his accounts. I thought someone was supposed to send in a death certificate so they close or freeze accounts until probate.
He is intestate right now.
And is the nursing home going to wait to get paid until someone files as Executor and petitions court? And home sold? Ugh!!!!!
Im afraid nursing home's lawyer is going to say we waited a yr for payment, and we are not waiting any longer for the estate to be probated. I dont know what to do. I dont have 10k.
My lawyer says dad has no will. He looked into it. I'm so stressed right now.
I hope you will keep updating us. I think of you and am pulling for you.
Thank you for your update below. So relieved that you are in the hands of this lawyer now. I have to think that your sister is well aware of assets and is trying to keep the facts hidden. There is something VERY wrong with all her responses to you.
I hate to think of the costs you are incurring here, but I cannot help but be so relieved you are seeing a Lawyer. This is a heck of a lesson you are learning, and likely to be costly in every way from monetary to emotional, but your words below on what we must do now to protect our families in future are so good.
I hope you will update us as you walk this journey. You could be such a help to so many as you walk this walk with the Lawyer.
I personally will always be on the lookout for "Update from Jasmina" and my thoughts are with you. Hope this goes well for you.
I also need to talk to lawyer about how much of mom's assets automatically go to husband. Mom died and he was still living. Havent found concrete answers online yet. I was told, most of the assets had to be kept, and added to dads assets. So no personal items distributed. NONE. Not even sentimental. It has been 7yrs now. Still nothing.
Everyone was telling me go see a lawyer. If you think something is off it probably is. Dont let your Executor tell you, you cant ask questions. Or provide you with O answers. You have a right to know!!!
I was even told dont open the mail (when dad was living) only Executor can do that. It is illegal. I never did. The lawyer said all this time? Why not?
I have to remind myself that narcissists will always try to get you to believe a different reality than what is really going on. This has happened all my life. My mom and sis always telling me my feelings/reactions were wrong. The gaslighting was tremendous. Still is. If I brought up (the will) Im a filthy money gruber. It was 2yrs after death. I didnt have a right to know, and no right to question anything. Withholding knowledge is power.
So finding out what assets go to husband is next. I'm writing all my questions down for when I talk to him next. At least with him I get answers. That is more than I've ever gotten in 7yrs.
I called the county about the wills. The lady said none on file for dad. Im almost positive he had one. They would only know if it was filed. I would think a lawyer would do that at the time the will was done. I am so shocked right now.
How would he have POA if he couldnt get it together to get a will. Why bother. Ugh
Document, document, document. There's no telling when that information, no matter how insignificant it may seem, can make a difference.
I'm sorry you had this dumped on you. Best wishes to you!
If you have any written communication with your sister, even texts or emails, print them and put them in that file, too.
We are worrying about you and thinking about you and we hope you will update when you come to some resolution on this. I think your sister has made some major mistakes.One mistake is that thinking paying 50.00 a month gets her off the hood from a creditor. It only works to assume the debt, let them claim that you PAID so you must know you OWE. I think her mistakes won't come to bite you unless you let them, unless you make mistakes of your own, so do not act without legal advice. I like Tacy's advice IF you communicate at all, because it forces them to prove to you what this is for. If this is a collection agency you will not see a reply to that letter.
Good luck. Please see a lawyer.
Please consider an hour of Elder Law time. This is going to ruin the budget for a month or two, but in terms of mental health it may be worth it.
Good luck.
There is a list of payments and charges along with the letter
.The check # are out of order. So at first glance looks like it wasnt paid after june. That is incorrect. I had to go thru the list and write the dates/checks in proper order.
So Nursing home got paid something in August. So that makes me feel a bit better.
Odd thing is, the last payments of this 2019 are in the middle of the page/list. So glancing at the bottom of the list- it looks like bill was not paid since early june. Weird.