I feel like we are negotiating with a "terrorist". Is there something we are missing?

I hate to say this, but when dealing with a narcissist, you have to NOT CARE what they think or say about you.

I also think that with even mild cognitive decline, saying "this is how it's going to be", not in anger, but with love, the way you would a chikd, is a good structure for someone who must be feeling panicky at loss of control they are experiencing.

Hi, Here's what popped out at me:
''He has some age related cognitive decline... LATELY, we have needed him to "help us" by making some good decisions ...To be honest we could do it and he would never know.''.
I would say just go ahead and do the things you need to do for safety now. If his cognitive decline is getting worse he's not able to reason and you're just spinning in circles trying to get him to agree with you while it makes you stressed. He might not be able to reason anymore.
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I'd opt for this being a progression of his age related decline. Age related decline can morph into 'mild cognitive impairment'. Some people never progress beyond MCI, but it can predispose the person to develop one of the dementias as they age. It's tricky to see the progression if you're around as it can be subtle. People have tremendous social reserves that allow them to cover their cognitive losses early on.
Are there other things that aren't getting done or are now requiring more prompting like bill paying, or other poor decision making? Meds not taken? Tasks undone? New hygiene changes? Same conversations over and over? He could also possibly have a UTI, or a thyroid or vitamin imbalance, so should have a physician's visit set up to rule these out. It sounds like FIL will be defensive, so set up the visit as a 'medicare check up', and let the physician know in advance the reason for the visit, as well as the changes you've noticed.
With age-related decline your FIL's basic personality may become less filtered, so charming inappropriate comments may pop out.
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This was written for Alzheimers but could apply to the early stages of many types of dementia.
''The enormous changes in memory, perception, interpretation and understanding lead to changes in the ability to use judgment as the person has used it in the past.''
''People with Alzheimer disease gradually stop their household activities such as repair, cleaning, cooking, gardening, etc. as the disease makes the performance of these tasks impossible. The abilities to plan, organize, and carry out functions become severely compromised early in the disease. These functions are called executive functions, because they require a number of different memories, different skills and the ability to see the sequence of each of the steps of a procedure and their relation to the other steps. Performing duties around the house becomes impossible for the person with Alzheimer disease, even though they appear to be physically capable of carrying out those duties.''
-- http://www.dementiacarestrategies.com/12_pt_Understanding_the_Dementia_Experience.pdf

I realize that he is Narcissistic but you could also be dealing with someone with Dementia from what you describe. Reasoning is one of the first things to go. And yes, they do become "childlike". So if talking to him like a child works, then that is what you need to do.

It would not hurt to have him evaluated. Have some blood tests done and maybe some neurological testing. I hope someone has POA. If not, get it before testing. If he refuses, tell him that without someone having it, then the State can step in and take over his care. You as his child will not be able to do anything.

A year before entering MC, arguments with my mother had no logical reason. It about drove me insane.

I had NO idea that it all was actually dementia talking.

Reading here finally helped me to put the puzzle pieces together.

I have to say I'm latching on to your SIL's comment - why DON'T you take DH and go? I'm dam*ed if I'd give my time to this hiding to nothing. Why not let the daft old sod go to the devil if it makes him happy and everyone else's life easier? Why should you rack your brain and ruin your nerves and be scapegoated as a bully for fighting his family's battles for them?

Just out of interest, how did your DH respond to his father's get your woman in line tip? I think this is very important.

Well not exactly the same situation, but another ornery old man from a very recent thread..

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/unable-to-communicate-without-an-argument-is-this-normal-behavior-for-someone-his-age-468424.htm

@Beatty - BIL and SIL moved in with him about 5 years ago - he didn't really need care at the time - the situation was kind of reversed. They needed a roof over their heads. From the moment they moved in - whether it was just timing or by his design - I think a combination of both - he just suddenly was no longer able to do anything at all for himself - and made them "pay" for that roof in "pounds of flesh". The arrangement between them was between them but he went from being what I consider extremely independent to being 100% dependent in a span of about 18 months. By virtue of not doing anything for himself at all - and every doctor, physical and occupational therapist that saw him from then on said he was fully capable of doing much more, he has lost the vast majority of his mobility. There were plenty of things that he could do when they moved in that he literally just stopped doing and SIL felt so guilty about being there and so afraid she would upset him (remember those years of conditioning and verbal and emotional abuse) that she just did them for him. Now fast forward, he is nearly completely immobile, angry about that, can't understand why the doctors can't just give him a pill to fix five years worth of literally laying around and not moving. The narcissism, and make no mistake, this isn't just age related self focus, this is true dyed in the wool narcissism, is getting so much worse, has alienated everyone including all of his grandchildren, until it is just the four of us left. DH and I help more out of a sense of guilt for BIL and SIL than anything else. We are begging them to get out of that house because that is the only way we can move forward with any other actions.
FIL KNOWS that he can stay in that house as long as they are there. He also knows that he CAN'T stay there alone and there is NO ONE that is going to live there except them. He is aware that if they leave he will either have to hire full time 24/7 caregivers or move to a skilled nursing facility because his physical needs far exceed an assisted living facility at this point. I think SIL feels like she is obligated to take care of her dad. NONE of the rest of us feel that way and she knows this. No one asked her to take care of him or wants her to have to do this, she knows this. We are ALL ready and waiting to find a skilled nursing facility. We all agree it is beyond time. But we know we can't do anything until certain things are in place because the house will have to be sold to pay for his care. And he will not go until they do. So we wait.

If he would not even notice what you guys are doing then stop involving him in any of these discussions.

Narcs love to create contention and then play the hero by coming up with a solution. You all are feeding his narcissism by asking him for input. He gets to be the boss and that is part of the game.

One thing that I know from personal experience, narcs are bullies and being such, they do not know how to deal with anyone or anything that stands up to them and their bs. He isn't thinking about you guys leaving, he lives in the moment and he is always figuring out how to manipulate the current situation. So, I recommend not giving him credit for any forethought about the consequences of his actions, narcs don't believe that they have consequences for their actions.

I think that I would let my SIL deal with him 100% if she is the reason that he isn't in care. She doesn't get to dictate that she stays and now you and hubby are obligated to prop this situation up. She will decide sooner rather than later to move if she is dealing with him solo or maybe she won't but, her wanting to live there doesn't obligate you and your husband to support her choices. All choices have consequences and dealing with daddy is her consequence for not moving out.

Best of luck, this is a tough situation that your SIL and BIL have created with your FIL.

Whatever work you and the family can get done covertly without your FIL knowing about it, just go ahead and do it.
You can't talk to your FIL like an adult because he's no longer functioning as one. Of course he treats women like they are here to serve him. That has been his experience his entire life. Granted, some of that comes from his upbringing but not all of it. I speak from almost 25 years of elder care experience and can say that most of the elderly people I've known (men and women alike) treat females like they are here to serve them and cater to their every need and want. It's a generational thing. Even with elderly women because they too have been conditioned to believe that females are supposed to serve and be the caregivers to everything in the world. The "stubbornness" and downright abusive behavior is reserved for the women in their life who have to provide their care. This means hired caregivers, daughters, and grand daughters.
I have to have a bit of a laugh because for centuries childbirth was referred to as the "curse" of women. Clearly the people who thought this never had to be a caregiver and responsible for an elderly person. I'd rather birth a dozen bairns then have to be doing that.
Your way of handing your FIL is exactly the right way because it's what he needs. So many of our elderly loved ones need to be shown some tough love by their families. When they can't bully or push around their family anymore and their often asinine nonsense is no longer indulged, they will accept the help they need.
I am sorry that you don't like the way you have to handle your FIL and his situation. Unfortunately, this is the only way to keep moving forward with him. He's going to complain incessantly about you to whoever will listen. You and everyone else is just going to have to ignore it and continue.

Unfortunately, this is what works for your FIL. Don't put any weight into his comments to your husband.

Since there appears to be multiple problems, please get your FIL evaluated for dementia and physical ailments. Don't be surprised if his family doctor refers him to a neurologist (for evaluation and treatment of dementia) and a geriatric psychiatrist (for evaluation and treatment of mental health issues).

IF you feel he can either live on his own or will move to a facility if no one is there to care for him, then I would do what it takes to get the house "in order", whether you all just do it without his input or you give him the stern lecture. Whatever works. Yes, it stinks to have to be the "meanie", but if it works, so be it! Who cares what he says behind your back? You already know how he feels about women, so it's to be expected, even if you weren't being the Grinch. The good news is your husband has your back and stood up to him. Good for him!

You indicated that BIL/SIL moved in 5 years ago, more out of necessity for them than for dear old dad. What is their situation now? Can they afford to find a place of their own? If so, then they should work on finding a place and make plans to move out. Meanwhile, if you all work well together as a team, get dad's place cleaned up and situated. Once they move out, then see how it goes. If he can't fend for himself, then someone will need to step in and take over. This may require guardianship. Based on another person's journey with that, it doesn't always have to be competence and doesn't have to be complete guardianship. The courts will try to allow the person some independence, but if it can be shown that he can't cope, then some or all oversight can be granted (his funds should pay for this, not any of yours or the ILs.)

If the ILs still can't afford their own place, then you all can still tackle cleaning up the place, but help SIL grow a backbone and have them slowly withdraw from all the help they provide. If necessary, you can increase your Grinch repertoire to include directing him to take on some of the duties required, as he used to do. They've enabled him for a long time, so it won't happen overnight, but between them backing off and you being drill sargeant, get him doing tasks OR teach her how to do it. He's likely physically weaker from not doing it, so it needs to be done in stages, but he needs to either take this on or move to AL.

Remember, even the Grinch had a heart and it grew three sizes!

Perhaps your method of talking to him is the same one used by his family female matriarchs. Talked to him like a kid. This is how we're going to do it. Period. As for going behind your back and telling your husband to get you in line is rather funny. Hubby needs a quick response to that for him - been trying for years, but she takes after her father!!! -- Let his words about that roll off your back. No harm, no foul. What you said worked, so go with it.

Decision-making gets harder for adults as they age, cognitive decline or not. The reason why it probably worked when you talked to him like a kid is because you didn't overwhelm him with details and overcomplicate it.

Talking to him in baby talk is disrespectful -- simplifying what you're trying to convey is not.

OK I am getting a picture, correct me if wrong!

SIL & BIL got in a sticky spot a while back & FIL helped them out. FIL saw it more 'transaction' than gift.. The King grants this generosity = enslaved into the King's service - forever. Now they are stuck fast.

They may need to do a 'Harry & Megan' & plan their escape & independence despite the hardships it will bring. That's up to them of course.

You seem to get along well with them - I'd make THAT relationship the one to preserve & protect. (They'll be still around in 5, 10 years).

Ensure they get you. Eg if you stepped back from helping FIL & this increased their workload would they understand?

If you work with them on a master plan, the tough love approach could work.

The biggest barrier will be SIL. That F.O.G. (fear obligation guilt). She will need to examine her thoughts. Does FIL helping her before match what he is expecting now? Has the emotional/financial debt been cleared in her mind?

One last thought.. when I ran up a credit card in my stupid youth. My Folks did not pay the bill but showed me how to manage it myself. Could SIL take that approach with FIL now? I won't DO all your work, but I will show you how to hire help?

I think you answered you own question - he was brought up being given everything by mother and grandmother, which means they were the ones who could take it away. Hence you are the one to be listened to but also to be "put in line". He has grown up and gone through life knowing how to manipulate people and how to get what he wants, but also how to make sure he keeps on the right side of people if it serves his aims.
So treat him like a child and he responds in case you stop giving him things he wants, but like a child behind your back he rebels and talks about you because he thinks having things his way is his right.
I guess its a bit like Pascal's wager - do what DIL says just in case I can't continue to get my own way.
I doubt you will change him, but a discussion between your generation of the family that agrees that things will get done by treating him as a child and that's just the way it is - do it and move on - could take the strain off all of you. Its a case of finding what works and using it same as with a child, he is just a child that was spoilt, never grew up, and is likely unfortunately to suffer mental decline until more and more like a child in future. If the family can agree on a plan of action you will all feel less stressed and more supported by each other going forward.

Just how I read it - having a narcissistic mother.

I have no perfect answers for sure. But it is the only way I can talk to my mother. She now has advanced dementia. And there will never be talking to her like a reasonable adult anymore. She will rage and carry on and curse at me. I have to remain calm and just speak firmly that I won’t support her behavior or her demands. I say “this is the plan and that’s the way it is.” Or something like that. Much like you have had to. She has been making poor decisions all along for many years and doesn’t recognize her decline or dementia. She throws tantrums like a child and will lie and manipulate to try and get what she wants. I believe she has had dementia for many years but her abusive and narcissistic personality made it hard to see.

If it’s any help at all, I was coached by a person who has experience in managing these behaviors to do just what you are doing. Just speak clearly and firmly and walk away when needed. Don’t try to reason or explain or appease. I don’t raise my voice, but I am serious and I don’t show emotion. I can say to not take it personally but it’s hard not to sometimes. Deep down your FIL knows you won’t take any guff and that it is likely you could cut him off. He knows he needs help and is clinging to whatever control he still thinks he has. For him that’s being verbally abusive. I’m sorry you have to go through this!

It is your new life, on most days, or on so many of your days that it feels oppressive. My DH snaps at me no matter how I speak to him, so it’s mainly my own emotions which I must guard, by remembering he is not the spouse I’ve been married to for 30+ years.
At least, with a parent figure rather than a partner in that circumstance, you’re not in a position of grieving how your beloved peer’s cognitive/emotional decline is affecting them and you.
Hugs! Take a measure of empowerment for yourself, to weather this caregiving storm.

Go with what works. It’s hard and draining on you to reach that point of confrontation. You have to be careful to decompress and find a solid, no nonsense tone. In my family, there are people who won’t stop as long as they figure there is a possibility that you will cave and they will “win” even if it is actually a “loss” for them. He was surprised and temporarily left down his strategy of defiance, you might have to go a couple of more rounds.

I don't think it has anything to do with your approach of talking to him like a child, I think it was all the threats regarding the Home Owners and the Fire Dept.

Next time, just tell him nicely the first time the same thing.

You can even add the Health Dept and Senior Dept.

But, please keep in mind it is his house and he shouldn't have to get rid of anything unless it really is a concern for Health or Safety. Not because you or anyone else want it cleaned up.

They'll be plenty of time to get rid of his stuff, after he's gone.

You don't need to try teaching an old dog new tricks.

As long as he shows you respect, he can't help how he feels or thinks because that's how he grew up.

But, you show him respect and let him know you expect it back and everything will be fine.

Your post contained the answer: "To be honest we could do it and he would never know..." At some point they become incapable of making rational decisions. Why "involve" him if his response is always the same? Just get it done.

If you can do just the bare essential work without him saying anything & it’s for fire & health safety then just do it. Don’t radically change things since you’re right, it is his home & he should be on board for that. If it’s just stuff that’s bugging you because like you said, it’s old, then leave it. He’s not agreeing because he doesn’t want it done. All elderly people deserve respect & dignity. You can clear it out when he doesn’t live there anymore.

Doing it on a "what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over" basis is all very well - but who's paying? His house, his asset, his repair costs.

Why does it even matter why he responds to the requests you make and how you make them? If it gets the job done that’s all that matters. Things could be a lot worse.

Is there a POA for his health and finances? If not, it should be your priority, otherwise your wasting your time.

Yes, that is the way you "are going to have to do things from now on to get anything accomplished'. You either accept that - and learn to not care what he says about you afterward - or step away. Trying to reason with him or expecting a narcissist in cognitive decline to be reasonable will only continue to frustrate you.

You describe FIL and I see my 87 year old husband who suffers from dementia, aphasia and loss of hearing. He was always in charge of his life and usually called the shots. His way or the highway so to speak. In any case I will only tell you that when he became intolerable to manage he was placed in a memory care for 5 months. It was the hardest time of my life to be without him, but it was the best thing that ever happened. He was thoroughly evaluated, placed on medications that definitely changed his mood and behavior. He is now back home with me and is very easy to manage. He’s like a different person. I can only highly recommend that you have FIL thoroughly evaluated by a neurologist and placed on the appropriate medications that could help immensely. I will also mention that having my husband in the memory care made it much easier on me because they were constantly working on the proper medications and dosages until they got it right and he became calm and well adjusted.

You’re going through a most difficult time in FIL’s life and if you can do anything to ease his burden, while not destroying your life would be most advantageous for all involved. It’s very possible that he is depressed, anxious and confused which only adds to the agony of watching his life slip away in slow motion and not knowing why.

My mothers decision making was the first thing to go when she began her cognitive decline. She purposefully walked on ice downhill on a driveway to “see how slippery” it was. She waited for my brother to leave the house and then dragged heavy boxes up and down basement stairs alone…a woman who could barely walk without falling over…..she showered the minute we left the house yet fainted in there before and had 911 called....she hoarded food in her bedroom…hoarded empty bags…and over bought so much household stock..she had forgotten she already bought it…...long story made short she lives in assisted living now and still sneaks at 330am to shower despite us paying for help…Sadly this will get worse..Someone will need POA and medical control…..I took it over the minute she began poor decision making..I just do whats needed…little talk of why with her....its a downhill slide…so sorry! My moms 87..

OMG this is so my FiL. My MiL passed away unexpectedly and suddenly. She managed him . Now the full brunt is on one of 3 sons. One son, my DH is dealing with Parkinson's but we help as much as we can since we live the closest. and the other son lives out of state. The son who is doing the bulk of the work lives about 75 miles away. We have come to realize that the affairs are anything but in order and FiL not only insists they are ( knowing they aren't) but refuses any assistance in getting things in order and simplifying things so that they are manageable. So we have a 96 year old narcissist with dementia who refuses any assistance with his business and argues about everything. In the long run I think if you found a strategy that works and gets the needed compliance go with it. You have my best wishes

Two things after I read your description. Get him evaluated by a qualified health care professional; home visit if he refuses to go in. Your Area Agency on Aging can help you find the right resources for that. Second, read up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It’s an eye opener. The books we read were “Stop Walking On Eggshells” and “Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissistic Personality.” (What is meant in the second book’s title is how to stop kowtowing, if you will, as someone will have to provide caregiving - not caretaking - at this stage of his life, whether it’s in the home, or in AL.) The books give excellent tools that you may be able to use now, or in the future with disordered personalities - you probably know more folks like that than you think. We just recently discovered that a first degree relative has Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a diagnosis, and it explains so much, which helps us with healthier approaches to said individual. If anything, the books and other similar resources give you tools to understand so you don’t go bonkers. I suspect, as others have said, that speaking to him as a child is indeed reminiscent of his mom and grandmother, which is why it works - despite his commentary to your husband. Getting him evaluated is key, though. My best to you. This is a tough row to hoe.

You're not going to change him, and don't want to bargain with him. Your words: "To be honest we could do it and he would never know but it is HIS house and we were trying to keep him involved". If this is truly the case, just do what needs to be done while he is in another part of the house and be done with it.