I feel like we are negotiating with a "terrorist". Is there something we are missing?

I hate to say this, but when dealing with a narcissist, you have to NOT CARE what they think or say about you.

I also think that with even mild cognitive decline, saying "this is how it's going to be", not in anger, but with love, the way you would a chikd, is a good structure for someone who must be feeling panicky at loss of control they are experiencing.

Hi, Here's what popped out at me:
''He has some age related cognitive decline... LATELY, we have needed him to "help us" by making some good decisions ...To be honest we could do it and he would never know.''.
I would say just go ahead and do the things you need to do for safety now. If his cognitive decline is getting worse he's not able to reason and you're just spinning in circles trying to get him to agree with you while it makes you stressed. He might not be able to reason anymore.
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I'd opt for this being a progression of his age related decline. Age related decline can morph into 'mild cognitive impairment'. Some people never progress beyond MCI, but it can predispose the person to develop one of the dementias as they age. It's tricky to see the progression if you're around as it can be subtle. People have tremendous social reserves that allow them to cover their cognitive losses early on.
Are there other things that aren't getting done or are now requiring more prompting like bill paying, or other poor decision making? Meds not taken? Tasks undone? New hygiene changes? Same conversations over and over? He could also possibly have a UTI, or a thyroid or vitamin imbalance, so should have a physician's visit set up to rule these out. It sounds like FIL will be defensive, so set up the visit as a 'medicare check up', and let the physician know in advance the reason for the visit, as well as the changes you've noticed.
With age-related decline your FIL's basic personality may become less filtered, so charming inappropriate comments may pop out.
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This was written for Alzheimers but could apply to the early stages of many types of dementia.
''The enormous changes in memory, perception, interpretation and understanding lead to changes in the ability to use judgment as the person has used it in the past.''
''People with Alzheimer disease gradually stop their household activities such as repair, cleaning, cooking, gardening, etc. as the disease makes the performance of these tasks impossible. The abilities to plan, organize, and carry out functions become severely compromised early in the disease. These functions are called executive functions, because they require a number of different memories, different skills and the ability to see the sequence of each of the steps of a procedure and their relation to the other steps. Performing duties around the house becomes impossible for the person with Alzheimer disease, even though they appear to be physically capable of carrying out those duties.''
-- http://www.dementiacarestrategies.com/12_pt_Understanding_the_Dementia_Experience.pdf

A year before entering MC, arguments with my mother had no logical reason. It about drove me insane.

I had NO idea that it all was actually dementia talking.

Reading here finally helped me to put the puzzle pieces together.

I have to say I'm latching on to your SIL's comment - why DON'T you take DH and go? I'm dam*ed if I'd give my time to this hiding to nothing. Why not let the daft old sod go to the devil if it makes him happy and everyone else's life easier? Why should you rack your brain and ruin your nerves and be scapegoated as a bully for fighting his family's battles for them?

Just out of interest, how did your DH respond to his father's get your woman in line tip? I think this is very important.

I realize that he is Narcissistic but you could also be dealing with someone with Dementia from what you describe. Reasoning is one of the first things to go. And yes, they do become "childlike". So if talking to him like a child works, then that is what you need to do.

It would not hurt to have him evaluated. Have some blood tests done and maybe some neurological testing. I hope someone has POA. If not, get it before testing. If he refuses, tell him that without someone having it, then the State can step in and take over his care. You as his child will not be able to do anything.

Perhaps your method of talking to him is the same one used by his family female matriarchs. Talked to him like a kid. This is how we're going to do it. Period. As for going behind your back and telling your husband to get you in line is rather funny. Hubby needs a quick response to that for him - been trying for years, but she takes after her father!!! -- Let his words about that roll off your back. No harm, no foul. What you said worked, so go with it.

Your post contained the answer: "To be honest we could do it and he would never know..." At some point they become incapable of making rational decisions. Why "involve" him if his response is always the same? Just get it done.

@Beatty - BIL and SIL moved in with him about 5 years ago - he didn't really need care at the time - the situation was kind of reversed. They needed a roof over their heads. From the moment they moved in - whether it was just timing or by his design - I think a combination of both - he just suddenly was no longer able to do anything at all for himself - and made them "pay" for that roof in "pounds of flesh". The arrangement between them was between them but he went from being what I consider extremely independent to being 100% dependent in a span of about 18 months. By virtue of not doing anything for himself at all - and every doctor, physical and occupational therapist that saw him from then on said he was fully capable of doing much more, he has lost the vast majority of his mobility. There were plenty of things that he could do when they moved in that he literally just stopped doing and SIL felt so guilty about being there and so afraid she would upset him (remember those years of conditioning and verbal and emotional abuse) that she just did them for him. Now fast forward, he is nearly completely immobile, angry about that, can't understand why the doctors can't just give him a pill to fix five years worth of literally laying around and not moving. The narcissism, and make no mistake, this isn't just age related self focus, this is true dyed in the wool narcissism, is getting so much worse, has alienated everyone including all of his grandchildren, until it is just the four of us left. DH and I help more out of a sense of guilt for BIL and SIL than anything else. We are begging them to get out of that house because that is the only way we can move forward with any other actions.
FIL KNOWS that he can stay in that house as long as they are there. He also knows that he CAN'T stay there alone and there is NO ONE that is going to live there except them. He is aware that if they leave he will either have to hire full time 24/7 caregivers or move to a skilled nursing facility because his physical needs far exceed an assisted living facility at this point. I think SIL feels like she is obligated to take care of her dad. NONE of the rest of us feel that way and she knows this. No one asked her to take care of him or wants her to have to do this, she knows this. We are ALL ready and waiting to find a skilled nursing facility. We all agree it is beyond time. But we know we can't do anything until certain things are in place because the house will have to be sold to pay for his care. And he will not go until they do. So we wait.

If he would not even notice what you guys are doing then stop involving him in any of these discussions.

Narcs love to create contention and then play the hero by coming up with a solution. You all are feeding his narcissism by asking him for input. He gets to be the boss and that is part of the game.

One thing that I know from personal experience, narcs are bullies and being such, they do not know how to deal with anyone or anything that stands up to them and their bs. He isn't thinking about you guys leaving, he lives in the moment and he is always figuring out how to manipulate the current situation. So, I recommend not giving him credit for any forethought about the consequences of his actions, narcs don't believe that they have consequences for their actions.

I think that I would let my SIL deal with him 100% if she is the reason that he isn't in care. She doesn't get to dictate that she stays and now you and hubby are obligated to prop this situation up. She will decide sooner rather than later to move if she is dealing with him solo or maybe she won't but, her wanting to live there doesn't obligate you and your husband to support her choices. All choices have consequences and dealing with daddy is her consequence for not moving out.

Best of luck, this is a tough situation that your SIL and BIL have created with your FIL.

I have no perfect answers for sure. But it is the only way I can talk to my mother. She now has advanced dementia. And there will never be talking to her like a reasonable adult anymore. She will rage and carry on and curse at me. I have to remain calm and just speak firmly that I won’t support her behavior or her demands. I say “this is the plan and that’s the way it is.” Or something like that. Much like you have had to. She has been making poor decisions all along for many years and doesn’t recognize her decline or dementia. She throws tantrums like a child and will lie and manipulate to try and get what she wants. I believe she has had dementia for many years but her abusive and narcissistic personality made it hard to see.

If it’s any help at all, I was coached by a person who has experience in managing these behaviors to do just what you are doing. Just speak clearly and firmly and walk away when needed. Don’t try to reason or explain or appease. I don’t raise my voice, but I am serious and I don’t show emotion. I can say to not take it personally but it’s hard not to sometimes. Deep down your FIL knows you won’t take any guff and that it is likely you could cut him off. He knows he needs help and is clinging to whatever control he still thinks he has. For him that’s being verbally abusive. I’m sorry you have to go through this!