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Alva,

Foxes are clever! I can see you as a fox! 😊
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Geaton,

I never even considered that, let alone say that. In no way am I accusing anyone of anything.

I was merely pointing out that I was not wanting to argue with anyone.

Please don’t read anything more into it. I was only stating how I personally feel.

I agree that discussions are wonderful. I respect anyone else’s view. I hope that they respect my right to my opinion as well.

No one has to agree with anyone else’s opinion. We are all entitled to our own opinions.
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NHWM, are you saying a difference of opinion is an "argument"? If I have a difference I provide evidence, facts, proofs, first-hand experience, etc, and that's what I was doing. How else will anyone ever see another's point of view? It is healthy and respectful debate in the classical sense. That's what I was aiming for, nothing more.
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Alva,

I have never explored my spirit animal. I do love animals.

I read ‘The Raven’ by Edgar Allen Poe every Halloween though 😊.
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CM,

I agree, we all want reliable tests. My oldest daughter has to be tested frequently because she has medical issues that must be treated regularly. There are different results with different tests. We do need a reliable tests for all of us.
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OK, CWillie calls for "pax".
So, subject change.
What is your "spirit animal" and why.
For me, while I WISH it were the fox, it is in fact the Raven.
I guess it is the "witchy thing". I love how clever, naughty, perverse they are, and their instinct to survive, to use tools. I have hiked steep canyons and listened to them in the cliff nests above, their echos and the diversity of their language with one another is amazing. I think they will outlast the cockroach. I love the way their feathers go all irridescent colors, and I love the bump of their beaks. Their blinky eyes. I love that they can talk, as can some other corvids with training. I have crow teeshirts and a crow tarot deck. I love cats, dogs, pretty much everything, but the Raven--he "speaks to me". So, while often these days I consider the "old lizard", I for now will stick to the Raven.
I don't know why this subject. Just that Corvid rhymes with Covid.
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Geaton,

Of course no one is naive enough to think there won’t be deaths.

I am with Alva on this one. Protection! Take all precautions to be safe. Be good to ourselves and each other by doing all that we can so we don’t spread it.

This doesn’t have to require strict lockdowns. We have to behave wisely by being sensible, wearing masks, washing hands, not being in large crowds unprotected, and so on.

I am certainly not looking for an argument, nor am I playing devil's advocate. I want everyone to be safe. I care about all of us.

No one wants to see others suffer. That is what I mean by my message.

I totally agree with you, cwille. I don’t care to discuss anything if it cannot be discussed reasonably. It’s disturbing, slightly confusing and a bit disappointing.

All I know is I will do whatever I can and follow the health professionals advice that are caring for my husband who has been diagnosed with cancer.
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I'm calling pax (truce) .... please
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It all depends on how we look at that "potentially empty seat at the dining table". If we lose someone to Covid-19 we are going to be real impressed. The TRUTH is that SanFrancisco has a current population of 880,000 souls. And in the ENTIRE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA we have lost 250,000 to Covid. So we have honestly only put a dent, numbers wise, into the population of one city in our country. NUMBERS wise. It is much like anything else. If your husband or child is in that number it makes a good deal of difference.
I am a liberal. Not one of the wing nuts, but a liberal through and through.But even I know we cannot close down our country for two years and survive. My daughter is a teaching assistant in Washington State, special ed little ones. She and three little ones who "cannot rule keep" are in one room with another asst and a teacher. That is three salaries on three kids. How long can we sustain this? How long keep everything closed and have anyone with a job?
Something has to give. And I would say that that means that the WINGNUTS on all sides need to be right where they are--irrelevant, and some decisions have to be made.
Some things are EASY.
MASK for Godsake. Do it for you; do it for others.
Hand Wash.
Avoid crowds.
Watch for symptoms, test and isolate.
We all need to know that nothing here will be perfect. Our elders are virtually JAILED at this point. They are in their rooms without visits. Something has to give, and I am saying whatever way we go there is no guarantee of perfection. This is a virus. Not going anywhere. We don't even know its long term affect.
Hope for a vaccine.
Hope folks will take it.
All the best to all of us struggling for a way through this.
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NHWM, what is "the same outcome" that everyone wants? 0 covid deaths? That is not going to happen. Even the seasonal flu, after all these years, is not 0, even with vaccines. This is why the movement forward should be voluntary self quarantine/isolation. Those who want 0 risk need to stay home at all times and don't come in contact with another human being. It's the only way to protect at that level. I wear a mask when out (even if I'm the only one wearing it) because I decided I can't accept the risk that if I got covid but recovered I might be a "long hauler", as is the case with my friend in her 70s -- who was extremely fit and healthy with no underlying conditions. She recovered from covid pretty handily but was left with chronic GI problems to the point she is going to the Mayo to see if they can help her. Even though I'm healthy and fit (and younger than her) I don't want to find out the hard way that I may be left with a lingering health problem. So I take responsibility for myself and don't expect others to participate in it. I realize by going out I'm increasing my risk. This I accept.
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Of course everyone is frustrated. We have to work together to resolve any of this.

Everyone wants the same outcome.
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I sympathize too to a point. The trouble is the debate has become too polarized with extremes on one side crying for more lock downs while the other seems to be advocating for letting the disease run rampant so that we can all become immune and get back to normal. IMO the simple absolutely basic things like limiting unnecessary contacts and travel, wearing masks, socially distancing and hand washing are simply not that onerous.

As for contact tracing apps, I only know about the one here in Ontario and parts of Canada, it seems perfectly anonymous and I wish that more people, especially those in urban areas where untraceable spread is most problematic, would bloody well download it.
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Just to stay focused on covid facts:
- The death rate is the only number to keep an eye on and it has actually gone down even though infection rates are going up.
- 50% of deaths are still the most vulnerable by age + underlying conditions. Protecting them is going to be an ongoing battle.
- The point of the lockdowns (originally) was to prevent the hospitals from being overwhelmed, not to prevent the spread.

If the media wanted to be truly helpful and informative, they'd broadcast what the death rates are for each age group (with no underlying conditions). This would be the most honest reporting. But because news is a for-profit business and the covid story is "free" (meaning it doesn't cost any time or money to gather this information), this is what they constantly talk about because they must fill the airwaves. I learned this Journalism 101 in college and it's only gotten worse since then.

In my MIL's facility there is now 1 health care provider and 1 staff member who tested positive. The irony is that the health care provider "always wears an N95 mask" (per the communique from the NH admin) which begs the question: if this is true then how did this person get infected in the first place? The moral of the story is there will never be 0 presence of the virus (for now) so if you are in the vulnerable group (and not in a NH) you are in the best position to protect yourself in the best way. Also, no one can really prove who "gave" them the virus -- it may not have been "that person" who wasn't wearing a mask...it could have been from touching a surface or eating out.

My sweet neighbor's adult son with bipolar disorder (50+ yrs old) committed suicide a few weeks ago. I ask her specifically if she thought all the forced isolation from lockdown and constant hysteria added to his despair, and she said "absolutely!" So if anyone is mistakenly thinking there aren't any other consequences to the lockdown except inconveniences, please consider my poor neighbor's tragedy, which is playing out in who-knows-how-many other homes throughout the world (because this would be another helpful fact that the media ignores). This is why I believe each person should choose their own level of self quarantine and isolation and let others have a semblance of normal life. If you feel like you can't have any risk of covid then don't go out at all or come in contact with other people until there's a solution. There's just no other way to avoid it completely.
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Actually, I sympathise with Worried's frustration and scepticism - to which I would add my own cynicism. For me the classic example was a vox pop item the BBC ran in Liverpool, about a pilot test-and-trace program - big testing effort not limited to people with symptoms, but sampling a much larger population segment. The three locals featured (all women, I regret to say) thought the pilot was long overdue, very important, clearly an excellent idea, every city should be doing it. And would they be joining in? Goodness me no! - they didn't want to test positive and have to self-isolate.

But then again I am a socially compliant soul, happy to conform with anything that will or might help (not to mention obliged to when at work).

I have one dilemma on which I have been offered three different answers by my seniors. The NHS has launched a nationwide app for Test & Trace, you stick it on your phone and carry it with you wherever you go. I have it on my personal cellphone. Should I install it on my work phone? I asked this question in the spirit of purest enquiry at my office, not at all intending mischief. Glances were exchanged among those present. Lovely Shift Leader has done the same as I have, and has it on her personal phone, but when it came to work... not sure. Waiting for guidance on that, said a senior. Not necessary, said another.

Some few of our clients are Covid+, even in our little backwater of a county. Well of course they are! - they've just got back from a variety of hospitals, being treated for all sorts of things from broken hips to pneumonia to cancer. But if more than one or two or four of us workers are told to self-isolate because we've come into close contact with an infected person? - within a week there won't BE a reablement service because we'll all be stuck at home. Doing nothing and probably not infected, thanks to our strict observance of PPE and infection control measures.

I'm not taking my personal phone into clients' homes, that's my current compromise solution.

All I want for Christmas is a reliable test I can take every day 15 minutes before I leave for work. How long O Lord how long?
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WIC
It is attitude like yours that is causing COVID to explode. My next door neighbor was diagnosed on Wednesday. Now his wife and they are extremely sick. They have two children, 4 and 8. Seventy-five teachers in this very small school district tested positive this past week, as well.

You are teaching your children self-centeredness and selfishness. All that matters is what YOU want to do. To hell with everyone else. I have three children between the ages of 35 and 42. Two of them take this seriously, the third, not so much. Yet their area is exploding with cases, too.

My neighbors are very, very sick. They, too, thought, "oh well" if I get it, I get it, and I probably won't. Well, it got them. Both are healthy, mid to late 30's and now wish they had done things differently, including teaching their children compassion and patience and understanding.

I am sure that you will chastise me for my comments as you do so many others. You always have to be right and seem to know it all. So have at it, I am expecting it.

I hope you and yours remain healthy and that you soon realize the danger that others are exposed to by attitudes like yours.
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I can remember back in the early days how jaws dropped in disbelief and horror when 250 000 deaths were predicted, I can't help but wonder at how now that's become an acceptable percentage.
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Here is the thing...I have no right to put anybody else life endanger. None of us do!! We all want our lives back...we all want to go back to normal, but that can't happen when people don't wear their mask, or keep socially distance. The rich has been getting richer and the poor has been getting poorer way before Covid-it's just no one talked about it that much. In fact, no one even noticed it until Covid hit.

As humans we have two choices:1) You can be part of the solution or 2) You can be part of the problem. The choice is yours. Just remember you are putting other people's lives endanger! That is a fact!!

By the way, the death count keeps going up because people are not following the rules. I see this when I am out buy groceries. And I am not living my life in fear...by any means!!! I just don't want to make any body sick! I care for my fellow man!
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Here’s a quote for COVID-19.

Try to be like a turtle - Be at ease in your own shell.

- Bill Copeland (poet)

Yes, we get frustrated and lonely but it’s better than the alternative of getting Covid-19!
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Sigh........
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Cali,

It isn’t about shaming anyone. It’s about staying safe. Especially for those who have other medical situations.

My husband was recently diagnosed with cancer. I’m not about to place myself at risk and jeopardize his health.

My husband is able to work remotely and I am grateful. He has to get through these radiation treatments. I want him to remain safe.

For me, it isn’t a government issue, it’s a health issue.

People who don’t care about getting Covid will just spread it to others. I hope the vaccine will be successful in helping our nation but it isn’t available yet. Hopefully it will be distributed as soon as possible.
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Avoiding death is not living. Sacrificing time with the people you love the most isn’t noble; it’s cruel both to them and you. And none of it is necessary.

The point of my initial response which clearly went over some people’s heads is that our elected leaders are telling us follow rules for “our safety”, while they themselves are not following those same
rules. And those sane elected leaders are telling us that when we don’t follow those rules we ar spurring others lives at risk while they arrest us, fine us and even shut off our water and electricity if we get caught violating those same rules. When they get caught, nothing happens. Why should we blindly follow along and do what they say? Why are they allowed to put others at risk? If COVID is so bad why have most governors and many mayors been caught doing the very things they keep telling us aren’t safe? Nancy Pelosi got hair cut while salons were ordered to shut down and she did not wear a mask. 2 violations. If that was me, I would have been slapped with a $250 fine for violating the mask order. Shouldn’t these people be setting a better example? And again, why should we take their rules seriously when they don’t follow them?

The only people Who should be shamed and ridiculed are those who are blindly following along while believing the government knows what’s best for them instead of thinking for themselves! It is not in my families best interest to follow Newsolini’s guidelines. We are young and healthy. We’re not at risk. So we choose to LIVE LIFE. My dad was just diagnosed with cancer. Like hell I’m going to abandon him NOW and wait until the government decides its “safe” for us to visit in person. I spent all last week with my parents in another state and I will be back with them in a few short weeks. It’s what’s best for our family. My parents need me now more than ever and it wold be cruel and heartless to stay away from them!

In Oregon you can legally shoot up heroin and smoke meth. You can legally commit euthanasia. But you can’t have thanksgiving dinner with your mother!

In California you can have more people at a funeral than you can have over for Thanksgiving dinner. You can commit euthanasia, you can set up a tent anywhere you like on public or private property & fill the street with trash and human waste. you can even take a dump on the street if you want BUT you can’t sing Christmas carols in your own home this Christmas! Newsolini believes he can dictate how many people we have in our own homes! His ridiculous rules that few will follow: outdoor gatherings ONLY and limited to 2 hours. Masks required. Stay 6 ft apart. No singing. No more than 3 households. Hosts must keep a list of all attendees in case the government needs that information. Hahaha he just had a party with at least 12 households and he thinks Californians are going to follow his idiotic draconian holiday rules? This is all about fear and control. California has the highest mask compliance and strictest lockdown in the country and it hasn’t slowed the spread of COVID because THE GOVERNMENT CAN’T CONTROL A VIRUS. New Zealand is a perfect example. Total shut down and the virus is still there. It never went away. They aren't the success story some think they are (and let’s not forget they are smaller than Los Angeles county alone!). Or hey what about the researchers in Antarctica isolated alone for months but still caught common colds??? Viruses gonna virus! We haven’t eradicated the flu yet and 60k a year die from it. Still no HIV vaccine either. Anyway.....in closing......

I am sad to announce to the passing of our pet turkey, Butterball. He was killed by the police. We will be having a big funeral for him on Thanksgiving. Followed by a protest on Christmas Eve.
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Gershun, I could not agree more!

Wear a mask!
Wash hands!
Social distance!
Stay out of crowds!
Do everything possible to lower your risk of Covid.

They reopened bars here and cases are up! We are on the verge of them being shut down again.
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Life could be even shorter for a lot of people if everyone thought the way you do Worried.

Almost 250,000 dead in the states alone. If that number doesn't impact you even a little bit then I guess nothing anyone on here says will either.
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Glad,

There is a new shingles shot that is much better than the last one. I’m definitely going to get it. My husband recently had shingles and it is miserable. Very painful!
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If all you care about is COVID you are the last person who should make statements like “I am so tired of people who only care about themselves.”

Those who are living in fear of a virus with a 99% survival rate don’t give a damn about anything else. Drug overdose are sky rocketing. Millions are unemployed. Children are stuck in abusive homes. The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer. This is turning out be to the biggest transfer of wealth in US history! COVID isn’t the only problem in this country. Time for America to wake up and realize that lockdowns don’t work. California is your proof. Most of the state has been closed since the end of June. Masks have been mandatory since May and none of that has slowed the spread. The death count is way down. Hospitals aren’t overrun. It’s been 8 flipping months now. If you want to stay home, good for you. No judgement here. But don’t judge others who aren’t doing the same.

Live your life the way you want. Life is too short to stay home in fear of a VIRUS.
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And get your shingles shot. You don't want that either.
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Everyone get their flu shot. It’s that time of year!
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My great uncle was in the Army in 1918. He died in Texas from the flu. He’s buried in Texas. Family was not permitted to transport his body home for burial.

My husband caught Covid working in Wisconsin. He couldn’t fly home because he was Covid positive. Our sons drove him home. My youngest son is now positive. Fortunately, neither of them has developed severe problems.

Wear a mask, follow all the guidelines, you don’t this illness. Even if mild, it still is not pleasant. Think about yourself, but also think about your friends and family.
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Just because your BFF decides to jump off a bridge doesn't mean you have to too!

My point is, just because the government officials don't wear a mask or follow any of the rules doesn't mean we should follow down death highway with them.

I am so tired of people only thinking of themselves and not have a darn care about anybody else's life...having no respect for anyone else's life...having no consideration for any one eles...just because you think the virus isn't real or that the death number isn't real, doesn't make it true!!!

Maybe we will get lucky and the virus will take-out the selfish people of this world. If anything, maybe they will see it when it hits someone they love and care about!!

I had a co-worker who died from Covid. She was 61 yrs old and she was a good person.
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A flash from the past. During the second wave of the 1918 pandemic, the virus went after people 20 to 40 years old.
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