She has lived there 4 years. I haven't gone to anyone about this yet until I get more ideas since it is month to month, maybe they would evict her over this? It wasn't done in writing, by the way. Would an ombudsman be a good idea, a lawyer or ???
Agree with all that our objective is to keep our aging loved ones healthy, safe and well cared for. In an effort to return the focus to the Caregiver Forum's ability to support that goal, we are closing this thread for further comment. Thanks
You and many other believe the CDC, media, politicians, and the big pharms and their data and statistics. All these sources claim vaccines are safe & effective, and deny any death or injury results from the vax.
I and many other believe the inventor of mRNA (used in the COVID shots), doctors and nurses who have seen the horrible side effects and speak out, and the tens of thousands of suspicious deaths, and more than half a million side effects reported after getting vaccinated just in the US alone.
WE all want to be safe, and our loved ones safe.
You believe that vaccines will keep you safe and by us not taking the vaccines, we endanger you.
We believe the vaccine will harm us and by the government/businesses mandating the vaccines, you will endanger us.
I agree, I want everyone to be as safe as possible.
"You and many other believe the CDC, media, politicians, and the big pharms and their data and statistics"
WRONG, I do not believe the CDC, and I sure don't believe media and politicians! Characterize me fairly, I have stated the basis for my position is statements made by Dr. Pollard at the Mayo Clinic (which I invite everyone to view themselves on youtube), the statistics provided by my local hospital system, the people who stand behind those numbers, and my local doctors and nurses who are making appeals. I believe them. About the only thing I believe the CDC about is the total number of dead. The CDC has become a political organization and often tailors its "recommendations" on what is politically correct (which is one reason we find mask mandates resulting in kids running track races with a mask on when there is NO scientific study which supports this as limiting covid spread).
I am an amateur genealogist, I have documented the many deaths of people in my family tree who died of the Spanish Flu. I also remember the stories my grandmother shared as we stood over the graves of her brothers who died in the Spanish Flu pandemic; one a strong 17-year-old farm boy and one a 19-month-old baby.
Being unvaccinated means you have a greater risk of dying from this virus. Being unvaccinated means you have a greater chance of spreading this virus, maybe to someone who cannot be vaccinated and isn't strong enough to survive.
I do not want to see people die, the rate of real vaccine complications is much lower than complications of the virus, so I want EVERYONE who can be vaccinated. I understand IF the infection numbers continue to rise as they did here in September, there will come a point when there are no more ICU beds and no more ventilators; when that day comes, the death rate will explode. A little less than half the people requiring ventilators die now, but when there are no ventilators available the half that would have lived will die too.
The average age of the dying has lowered in this cycle of infection for East TN; the unvaccinated are younger and the old (65+) have mostly gotten the jab. Just during September, death has come closer with 9-10 people dying each day of covid. A father of my grand-nephew's football teammate has died from covid, his mother is in the ICU now. A school teacher in his younger brother's middle school has died of covid at age 48. My church friend has buried her 36-year-old grandson because of covid and she now worries for the 2 young children who must grow up without a father. My cousin's FIL, although vaccinated, who was immunocompromised from the meds he took to prevent rejection of his kidney and had heart problems, died at 84. Maybe he didn't have too many years left anyway, but he might not have had to die alone hooked up to machines without the comforting touch of someone who loved him.
PLEASE read information from credible sources. A local doctor here stated he hadn't signed a death certificate or treated someone in the ICU for vaccine complications, but he has signed many death certificates for unvaccinated people. A nurse explains how difficult her job has become, caring for people on vents where half will not survive. Ask yourself if you want to be the person that continues the spread. I look at my 7-year-old grand-nephew and ask myself "what would I do to never see him in an ICU on a ventilator" and the answer is "anything". Getting the jab is easy for me.
For many months, I did not speak out about vaccination out of respect for others' opinions. I still respect others' rights to have differing opinions but the September death toll changed my mind about speaking out. Now I want to see more people decide to become vaccinated because I do not want to see more death. If my appeal can change some minds and keep us from hitting the point of rationed care, it will be worth the people who will be angry with me. The rate of infection in East TN has been slightly reduced in the last couple of weeks; along with the deaths we've dropped to only 60-70% of the available ICU beds and ventilators in use. But the health care system is planning for a new surge in a couple of months... and worrying about the people who will die because they are avoiding routine care now. It's not just people delaying doctor appointments, we've had to put on hold "routine" procedures to free resources to care for the covid load.
The vaccine does not prevent you from getting it spreading covid. There is no proof it prevents you from getting hospitalized when you have a 98% chance of only having a mild case. Places that have higher vaccination numbers of vaccinated are having more outbreaks. Ask Israel about that.
Your local doctor may not have treated anyone for vaccine related injuries but that does not mean they don't and have not happened. Without full medical histories regarding the people you cite dying of covid they are just anecdotes and propaganda to me.
Not to mention treatment protocols for these patients. Vents should be a last resort and hospital treatment protocols should be discussed in cause of death of many people. But none of this is ever mentioned. Why?
Same as when others tell stories about issues people have had with the vaxxcines and are told thest instances are anecdotal. A lot of people died from the Spanish flu. Before covid people died and are still dying from the regular flu and pneumonia. It happens. Death from viruses have always happened and death does not discriminate.
The reality is this vaccine is not as effective as they are telling people. After 6 months or so your protection dwindles considerably that's why they are talking indefinite boosters. I don't take the flu vaccine every year and i don't get the flu. So taking the covid vaxx and not getting covid proves nothing because I havent taken it and I have not gotten covid. Others have taken the vaxx and gotten covid.
Please stop spreading the unvaxxed hospitalization propaganda. It is based on old data and hospitals have a perverse incentive to keep this going since they are receiving millions on dollars from the government.
People like you who want everyone vaxxed have an agenda. I have no agenda. If someone wants to take the vaccine go right ahead and do it. But I have a problem when people try and force me or others to get it by trying to destroy their ability to work, etc if I refuse to take it. I have no intention of being the government's or big pharmas b**ch for the rest if my life. Especially since many of the meds pharma makes and are approved cause cancer, dementia, Alzheimer's and more when people take them. Yiu say chances are low you will have an adverse reaction. That is not a chance I am willing to take. Especially since all the vaxx makers are immune from lawsuits from injuries for this vaccine and people like you don't care if somwone takes the shot and suffers complications from it. Based on this alone that is the reason it should be a choice.
I'm jumping in (and immediately back out again) to say that I am deeply suspicious about the intent behind this question. We've had several seemingly innocuous pandemic related questions posted by people with zero history on the forum (and they almost never are heard from again), these questions all generate a lot of conflict between members. Trolls?
Returning partly to have a vent, but SP's question is also relevant:
"It makes no sense to get the shot and still do all that. What really is the point?"
Sense? Sense?!? Who in this whole debate gives a monkey's about sense?
The *point*, though, is that this way I can look my frail, elderly, vulnerable clients and their frightened family members in the eye and tell them truthfully that I (I always say "we," God forgive me) am doing all I can to reduce the risk of transmitting infection.
The vent is this: late yesterday evening, when she really should have been at home, our service manager sent an email instructing all members of staff to attend our main office on Thursday or Friday every week to carry out and register a PCR test. Normally I wouldn't reply, to hear is to obey, I must be the quietest and meekest person on the team, but this was too much. I replied to point out that this means: additional work for our admins and shift leaders additional unnecessary contacts additional journeys into town inferior methods - I can't get my car as clean as my kitchen counter, and I can't wash my hands in the car park.
In short, this is *worse*! Sense? Ha!
Manager replied with understanding and appreciation. She realises how annoying this must be for those team members who have conscientiously conducted their weekly tests and submitted the results (quite. Every week without fail for five months. It's been a feckin' nuisance). But...
Yes of course I get the point: because some people aren't following the rules, we all have to line up and be made to like naughty children. I'm not going to guess how many team members have been dodging because it would depress me, but I do know we've had at least two positives over the last month, because they've been off work and we are already at full stretch.
I maintain vax neutrality when it comes to other people's choices. I'm having all the protection I can get, if anyone asks me I think they should too, but the choice they make is their confidential medical business and in any case I think it's a terrible idea to undermine informed consent which is the basis of medical practice in Western culture. Evil things have happened, and do happen, when that principle has been abandoned.
One of my co-workers doesn't agree. We were ill at the same time, back in January, but I got off lightly whereas he was a whisker away from needing ventilation. He wants anyone fired on the spot if they're not fully vaccinated and in full compliance, and I'm not sure he only means fired from their job. "Harsh, D," I said mildly. I can't repeat his reply.
Glad, in Northern Ireland another baker, known for conservative principles, was targeted (I suspect, anyway) and commissioned to make a cake for Pride celebrations. That went all the legal way too: it took four and a half years and cost well over half a million pounds. £250K of that money came from the Equality Commission who actually prosecuted the case. Like they don't have real hardship caused by flagrant unfair discrimination to be fighting.
I quote from the report: "Mr Lee said the case had made him feel like a second-class citizen and that he was now concerned about 'the implications for all of the gay community.'"
The implications being presumably that they'll have either to choose another baker or make their own cake. The potential suffering hardly bears thinking about.
I try to keep patience and an open mind, and I comfort myself by remembering that it's only the rare exceptions who won't use any bloody common sense in these matters or are actively out to make mischief and thereby the headlines. Most individuals most of the time are pretty good at negotiating life without either running their heads into brick walls or stamping on other people's corns.
An example. In this area a baker refused to make a wedding cake for a couple because of the couple's orientation based on his religious beliefs. The couple sued, it went all the was to the supreme court. It was covered at least nationally. Needless to say the baker won. A business is free to make its own rules regardless of the situation.
People just need to STOP taking things so freaking personally!
Margaret, the law is certainly not irrelevant. I assume this is also true in Australia? - that if you provide a commercial service you may not refuse it to people on the grounds of their gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation or any of the other protected characteristics (the list seems to grow weekly, no doubt footwear use will come into it eventually. I know Goths and Emos are already included).
Besides, let's look it in the face - liability insurance my eye, they don't want oiks or any other of those "poorer people" disfiguring their premises, though I don't particularly want to think through why that might be the case at the Tip Shop. Too depressing.
As far as withholding services or excluding access for people without proof of full vaccination goes, I think we're rushing cheerfully into a quagmire of unfathomable depths. Fun times ahead for lawyers!
People forget that full vaccination will only be considered if you have every single required booster. It will never end. If people are comfortable being test subjects for big pharma that's their choice but it should not be coerced through exclusion from services and employment. Etc. You see on TV all the time lawsuits for FDA approved drugs that have caused serious illness or death. Yet these shots are already causing serious side effects and death in people and the result is not to pull the shot but to make mandates forcing people to get the shot. You have to wonder what is really going on here.
Why do they want every single man, woman and child on this planet to get this shot for a virus that has a survivability rate of over 98% and is being diagnosed by a test that depending on the cycle threshold will show false positives.
Ask Harvard University which has a 98% plus shot compliance for staff and students why they shut down in person classes because of positive cases of covid. Did you hear this on your regular news outlet's. Or the other university that showed an outbreak of cases but found out all but 3 or 4 cases were actually false positives because of this faulty test that people don't understand can and is being manipulated.
In 2020 at the height of this pandemic NY converted the Javitz Center into a make shift hopital and brought that ship in to also be used. Both places went un used. Same with the majority of the ventilators the governor demanded.
In Missouri they set up triage tents outside the hospital where i live for all the covid cases. It was never used. On the news they are talking about a nursing shortage saying it's because the nurses are burnt out. But we know it's because many dont want the shot. Why? What do these nurses know that is not being reported?
Simple analogy: Here it’s common for both children and adults to go barefoot for most of the year. Many businesses have a ‘no shoes no service’ policy, usually because of potential injury liability (eg in our local recycling Tip Shop). Some people reckon it’s discriminatory, because it’s poorer people who don’t bother with footwear. Stiff – those are the rules. The law is irrelevant and the service providers make the rules. ALs are also businesses that can choose their own rules, and argument is a waste of time. This is only my second post, Isthisreallyreal, I’m sorry to rub salt in the wound.
Not wearing is not the same as being forcar to inject something into your body that has the potential to kill you or give you a debilitating side effect. Ask Eric Clapton about it. There is also a pro tennis player that has had serious sude effects and will probably never play tennis again.
I’m sorry but this is a probably a simple contract dispute.
In the AL contract there is usually a section that will say the AL has the right to require certain vaccinations and that the AL shall choose which vaccinations. If this is the case then your mom may be in breach of contract. The AL may choose to enforce the contract or terminate it (as permitted by law).
Your mom is not incarcerated. She has not been kidnapped. She may leave anytime she, or her guardian, wants.
You say the AL is her home and she should be free to do as she wishes as if she were home. But you are wrong. It’s a business. Your mom is a customer. She pays to be there just like the other customers. If there are rules she is contractually obligated to follow and does not want to follow those rules then she must find another business to live at.
Please reference Dr. Greg Pollard of the Mayo Clinic's excellent weekly updates about covid-19. Dr. Pollard distinguishes between what we "know" from studies and what we believe or want to believe is happening.
What we know in East Tennessee is the non-vaccinated are filling our hospitals and ICUs; they need ventilators too. The numbers are at the highest point since covid hit; including the numbers of people dying. Approximately 25% of new cases are among (unvaccinated) children now and some of them have spent weeks in ICU and some have died too. There have been a very few deaths among the vaccinated, but they have been people who had very bad health and comorbidities (for example my cousin's 84-year-old FIL had an organ transplant and heart issues); over 98% of the hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated. Even if you are vaccinated and get the virus, you have a milder case of it (usually not even requiring hospitalization) and you are less likely to spread it because you have less of a "viral load". There was recently a discussion about the fear the "ration" policy our hospital will implement when there are not enough ventilators and ICU beds to go around will "discriminate" against the unvaccinated... my part in the discussion was to point out that by our current numbers the people being rationed care will be overwhelming the unvaccinated so they do not need to be concerned about being "discriminated" against by people; the virus will have already done that.
An unvaccinated child in our family has had covid-19, apparently contacted at school, and survived, With extra ventilation in the house, no one else unvaccinated in the household got sick; thank God the older kids were vaccinated! Right now, my unvaccinated 67-year-old former SIL is in the ICU, fighting for her life. She felt ill on one day, tested positive the next, and on day three stopped communicating. When her nieces got to her landlord to open her apartment, she was non-responsive on her bed, lying in her own vomit,
The reasonable worst-case scenario for the nonvaccinated is death; the reasonable worst-case scenario for the vaccinated is a mild disease and life. I do not support a federal mandate on vaccination. I do support vaccination mandates by private companies on their employees in high-risk jobs, like bus drivers and healthcare workers.
I personally believe unless there is a medical reason you cannot be vaccinated, you have questionable "executive/decision skills" if you do not get vaccinated, for yourself and for everyone you come into contact with. Follow the science and ignore the politics.
TN, you understand that the definition of unvaxxed is anyone that has not had any shots, anyone with 1 shot and anyone that is within 14 days of receiving their 2nd shot.
That is why the numbers don't make sense, criteria is being changed to meet the agenda.
This should not be about politics, it should be about informed consent and there in lies the majority of the problems.
When the information is being manipulated to meet whatever agenda is going on then distrust is a certain outcome.
I have read CDC, WHO, NIH and alternative medicine websites and I don't know how any of the numbers justify what has and is going down.
Health care is in a crisis in my city because healthcare workers refuse to take the jab and our facilities are hugely understaffed because of this. These are the same workers that worked diligently before any shot existed, why are they now being pushed out?
To much doesn't make sense when you look at the entire information, not just what one source or MSM publishes.
It would realllly be nice if people could leave the covid vax debate out of these conversations. Over and over again. Ugh.
Please respect people's right to choose.
It is obvious that OP supports mom's right to not put something in her body that she does not want. She's not asking if she should push her mom to get jabbed. She's asking something entirely different. If you don't want to answer her question, you could always move on to another post instead of judging her and giving unsolicited advice.
LP1955 - I would ask for their policy in writing. Maybe there is a work around. Many workplaces have a "get jabbed OR do weekly testing". Maybe something like that might be an option. Or wearing a mask or social distancing or something? I'm not sure that any of these ideas will be palatable to your mom or acceptable.
It is one thing to say that mom should be able to choose what she wants to do about vaccines. Quite another to say that others cannot issue consequences as a result of their rights to make choices regarding risk. Freedom to choose does not mean freedom from consequences of choices made.
Here are just a FEW deaths and injuries from the vaccines reported in the month of September. I just listed those that you can look up and verify. Go read thecovidblog dot com and you will see a lot more.
Karen Croake Heisler: 67-year-old former Notre Dame professor says “d*** the unvaccinated,” dead 12 days after third Pfizer mRNA injection September 22, 2021
Bevan Costello: 65-year-old Australian indigenous elder receives second Pfizer mRNA injection during televised event, dead six days later September 29, 2021
Willie Garson: “Sex and the City” actor calls non-vaxxed people “ignorant morons,” dead five months after potential Pfizer mRNA-induced cancer September 29, 2021
Felicity Jackson: 29-year-old British model suffering continual convulsions, seizures after second Pfizer mRNA injection October 1, 2021
Francis Perron: 25-year-old University of Ottawa football player dies shortly after football game, mandatory “vaccines” required at the school September 22, 2021
Leah Taylor: 22-year-old Iowa doctorate student and fitness promoter hospitalized with myocarditis after coerced Pfizer mRNA injection, future uncertain September 8, 2021
Oscar De La Hoya: former boxing champion latest “fully-vaccinated” athlete to miss events, blame COVID-19 for being hospitalized September 8, 2021
Denham Hitchcock: Australian journalist hospitalized with pericarditis 25 days after Pfizer mRNA injection, insinuates AstraZeneca is safer September 1, 2021
Vinny Curry: career likely over for New York Jets (NFL) defensive end after post-injection blood clots, “rare blood disorder” September 1, 2021
Where is the scientific study of these deaths? Non-partisan verification of these anecdotes? Do we know the medical history of these people? Autopsy reports? Etc. I had a booster shot 2 days ago - if I die from a heart attack tomorrow does that mean it was caused by the shot? Anecdotes are simply not the basis of scientific pronouncements. Research is needed to verify claims. And keep in mind that vaccines are not a guarantee - precious few guarantees in this imperfect world. You are balancing possible risks. I believe the vaccine is basically beneficial on the whole and we are facing a pandemic.
Facilities are not allowed under federal law to require your loved one to get the vaccination. I am sure they can restrict participation to activities or events though. That out of the way… Unless there is a valid medical reason that she has not had the vaccine not doing so places her at higher risk of getting sick, it places other residents and staff at a higher risk of getting sick. If there is a valid medical reason she has not received the vaccine I would advocate for her and following proper precautions “social distancing” this may mean she sits alone or with others not vaccinated. And PROPERLY wearing an approved mask. She could participate in some of the activities
Nonsense. Funny you don't have to show proof of vaccination to get a job. But now you have to show proof of this one particular shot to keep your job. What medical intervention will they require you to have next to keep or get a job?
There are just 4 anti-vaxxers on this thread, saying the same questionable stuff over and over again. We don’t need to hear it any more. By the way, I’m proud to be one of the last locals with smallpox vaccination scars! At least these ones now don't leave scars.
For eye opening, read up on thecovidblog dot com It reports on many deaths with names and pictures, some very well known people (so they are real). The common factor: vaccines.
Heck, just read the CDC, WHO and NIH to get the information that the MSM is not reporting.
Fear does pretty awful things to people's ability to think beyond what the news tells them and if you disagree or have a differing opinion you get shut down, just like this post will be.
Let's not forget, if someone gets tested for Covid, the results are only good for the day of the testing. Therefore, places would need to test daily to get accurate results.
One can test negative on Monday but by Wednesday have covid but doesn't know it because in this case there are no symptoms. Next Monday a test is done and it is positive, and that resident is quarantined. But it's too late, the domino effect already happened last week, other residents got the virus from that one person. Visitors got the virus and took it home with them. A child in the household got the virus and past it along to a playmate, who in turned brought it home and the child's grandparents got it, were hospitalized and passed. And the child may have had a mild case but developed long-haul issues.
Again the shot does not prevent anyone from getting covid. Ask need help with mom about that. So with your logic both the vaxced and unvaxxed should get tested daily.
OP: In my mother's Memory Care ALF, everyone is vaxxed; staff & residents alike. Since they continue to test, positive results continue to show up (as will happen), and every few weeks, I get an email about an 'outbreak' which isn't an outbreak at all since nobody is sick, just testing positive (2 people testing positive constitutes an 'outbreak' at mom's place!) So they limit visits and everything else based on positive test results which can even be false positives, since no symptoms are present.
That said, a private AL can set down any rules they'd like. They can choose to evict your mother if they so desire, unfortunately, if she decides not to get the jabs. A lawyer or the ombudsman has no voice in their decision, so you are at their mercy as to what activities they choose to limit her to. Hopefully, the AL will stop the nonsense one of these days soon, but for now, they're using punitive measures (as are many other businesses) for those who chose not to be vaxxed.
As you can see by my first paragraph, there's no sense to anything going on right now. Vaxxed or unvaxxed, the virus is now endemic in our world and here to stay. The long term care facilities will ultimately have to decide how they are going to live with that fact moving forward, as will the rest of the human population. Punishing people who choose not to get vaxxed, or cannot get vaxxed for medical reasons, isn't going to change the fact that this virus is with us to stay and nobody is immune to it. Nobody; vaxxed or unvaxxed.
I hope everything works out with your mom's situation.
Pcr tests depending on the cycle run are not a reliable test for covid. This is the reason the CDC is stopping this test by the end of the year. No more covid tests is a better plan in my opinion.
It’s not illegal, it is being done out of an abundance of caution & in public health interest for her and others. I think a decision has to be made very soon as to moms position on vaxx & her future ability to socialize w other residents. She will face add’l costs ea month in order to continue reside there (she won’t be evicted, it just will likely cost more as she’s not vaxxed). Or you move her into your home to live with you from here on out.
There seem 2 b 3 interrelated things happening right now for HCW and HC facilities related to Covid. Hang in here w me on this…. 1st is that Covid Compliance for workplace is now under OSHA so regulated w fine$ that can b issued. 2nd is if a facility participates in Medicare or Medicaid in any way, in order to continue those payments, staff must be vaxxed unless they have a valid exemption and properly file for that exemption before the mandate goes in effect for your state for compliance. So if a AL or NH or MC has Medicaid beds, staff has to be vaxxed. And if a hospital, clinic, hospice, NH, AL or even IL do any kind of direct patient care services that they bill either of the M&Ms for, they have to now have staff vaxxed. Most AL & IL are private pay, so Medicaid beds / billing are not a factor. BUT MediCARE IS…. congregate living places, like IL and AL, will do annual on the premises flu shots, shingles and pneumonia shots AND do regular BP and wellness checks for their residents and it’s maybe the County health Dept health care worker (HCW) who does these or maybe Walgreens/ CVS sends out a team or it’s the RN at the IL or AL who does these. Whatever the case, MediCARE gets billed for these as everyone is over 65 and 99.9% on MediCARE. For IL, ALs, this is a good thing as they cannot afford to private pay a HCW or a clinic to come out an do flu & shingles shots, blood pressure checks, etc. But as they do this, they fall into having to have staff vaxxed for compliance as they are using Medicare $ to pay for a program at this location.
For part 3, for residents in facilities, what is happening is facilities have the data as to the Covid costs from 2020. And they can use that to require residents who refuse to vaxx to have to pay for additional fees or do additional things to remain there unvaxxed. So mom could face having to get weekly or bimonthly antigen &/or PCR testing done. There is now a whole cottage industry of Covid compliance officers who come on-site to routinely do testing at businesses. Insurance isn’t going to pay for this, it’s private pay as its proactive. Might be $ 500 - 1500 mo. It’s not discriminatory as it’s on the behalf of public health & public interest via OSHA workplace regulations. She can also be required to mask and wear disposable gloves anytime she leaves her room. Your mom will become a social pariah. Do you really want this for her?
If she could have a valid exemption, you need to get on having that done ASAP. But gotta tell you, if she did not file ADA medical exemption to flu, pneumonia or shingles vaccine b 4, or has something like Guillian-Barre or allergic reaction in her chart already, filing exemption now for Covid vaxx won’t fly. Religious exemption also have to show some sort of history of prior exemptions or decline of services on religious basis in the past.
Realize that should she become +, she will be transferred to a hospital. Will be no “in her room care” at all. AL does not have to hold her room or apt for her beyond end of that paid month, should she become hospitalized.
She has choices: become vaxxed; do &/or pay whatever actions needed to remain an unvaxxed resident at this facility; or move out. None of this is discriminatory, it’s similar to increased costs for health & life insurance and compliance requirements (like outside only) for smokers.
When my mother was in a skilled nursing facility for rehab, they forced her to get the vaccine, against her wishes. Then they wouldn't let anybody leave their rooms, always claiming that a staff member tested positive. I found out that was a lie by looking at the data, they just didn't want to let people leave their rooms. The data was found here - you can look up individual nursing homes & see COVID data.(As a side-note, this is a 5 star rated Medicare facility)
People are reading the data on vaccinated people dying at higher rates than un-vaxxed. They are extrapolating the data incorrectly!
I just spent some time reading articles and comments from virologists and immunology specialists. And talking to Dr. Joe, my SIL.
NOT ONE person said the vaccine was the 'savior' of the people, but a really good way to do what vaccines DO: create immunity, esp herd immunity, which is what we need.
As the population is more and more vaccinated, people are still catching COVID, that's a known factor in diseases. Some vaccinated people will get sick. B/C there are more vaxxed people dying, but that's b/c there's MORE VAXXED people than, say a year ago.
I'm old enough to remember polio & smallpox. We didn't say a word, just rolled up our sleeves or ate the little sugar cube. EVERYBODY did it. I do not remember my folks having to sign anything to give the school permission to vaccinate me.
Whooping cough is making a comeback. I have 14 grandkids and their parents all asked my DH and I to get boosters for that. We did so, happily.
I am fully vaxxed, plus a booster. Yes, it made me hella sick, but that just means I got a good immunity to it.
I respect anyone's right to not be vaccinated. But I won't hang out with you.
Dr SIL's own parents refuse to be vaccinated. Even now after they went through COVID and his mom should have been in the hospital. He will not allow them around his kiddoes AT ALL. Their loss, as they are now not getting the jab to show their son they can't be bossed. SMH
And yes, he's lost patients to covid. In his case, not one of them was vaccinated. I'm not making any point except that he said in his hospital, not one patient in the ICU had been vaxxed, as of Saturday.
Personally, I can't take another winter being locked indoors and living in fear. We take precautions, we are careful and we got vaccinated. Our choice.
I hate the fear that pervades. These vaccines were built upon previously created vaccines--they have been as researched as they could be. All medical science stands on the shoulders of previous studies--that's why they were able to get workable vaccines out so fast.
Midkid58, I had similar afterward affects with the Booster like I did with the 2nd shot, and like you, I knew my body was working. Heck, it's better than getting the virus itself.
Woooohoooo, that Booster gave me an uplifting feeling. Like it was freedom to go places with very little worry. Yes, I too, also have my mask ready if it needs to be worn.
If there is a medical reason for your mother not to have the vaccine, or arguably if she just feels strongly about it; and if she is happy to be regularly tested and to test on the morning of the event she wants to attend; then with all due respect to the various authorities I would be inclined to support your mother in thinking that this outright ban on her attendance is unreasonable even if not illegal.
I'd be interested to learn what records the ALF is keeping on its staff's vaccinations, too. If you were feeling mischievous you might like to ask them.
That said, I personally am a strict complier - I've just had my six-month booster jab with not a ghost of an ill-effect, I still wear a mask in all public venues and full PPE at clients' homes, and if the rules said we all had to stuff a pickled onion in our left ear to be on the safe side I'd probably keep a straight face and go right ahead. In a way it isn't about medical or statistical certainties, it's about good manners and the social contract.
What is your mother's main objection (apart from a disinclination to be pushed around, which I can fully understand but don't agree it's worth the hassle)?
LP, I seriously doubt if any attorney would even consider getting involved in a situation like this. At some point, some ambulance chasing law firms might develop what it considers grounds for a class action suit, but that's not something on which I would rely.
Like others, I have questions as to the validity of the demands and edicts being issued from those allegedly at the top of government, not necessarily in terms of legal basis but b/c the information over time has been questionable, and also b/c the pandemic is a smoldering political football.
However, I did get vaccinated and will get the booster, b/c at my age I don't want to take any chances, also b/c it's obvious that certain sections of the population have behaved irresponsibly and w/o concern for the rest of us. But I didn't get vaccinated right away; I did a lot of research, especially on side effects of each vaccine, before I made my decision.
And BTW, no way would I get anything from Johnson & Johnson after learning about its attitude on asbestos in talcum powder.
FreqFlyer makes a good point about population cooperation. The political environment has changed, there's so much friction at many levels, and the kind of team spirit that has existed periodically and at critical times throughout our history is under assault.
Back to the basic issue: is there some reason why your mother won't get vaccinated?
She spends all of her time in a group setting, like a college dorm, or a business. They have the right to make the rules, so get her the shot, or find somewhere else for her to live that doesn't require it. (Good luck with that.)
There is zero legal precedent for you to stand on to demand they change the rules for Mom, so don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Get the shot. My mother had Covid in January, and it destroyed her circulatory system. It didn't kill her, but she had huge open wounds on her legs for the rest of her life. Dying is not necessarily the worst thing to happen from Covid -- sometimes the after effects are pretty horrible, too. I can't believe you'd risk that.
My daughter has worked rehab/NHs for years and she feels making people stay in their rooms is illegal. These people are not patients, they are residents paying to live in these facilities. The facility is their home and as such they should be allowed out of their rooms. Maybe not congregating for dinner or in a common area but need to be allowed to walk the halls, go out into the garden or sit on the porch. All as long as they wear a mask and distance themselves.
I did not get my vaccine until I saw what type of reactions people got. My BIL is a Dr. of Immunology and he didn't get his until he researched. When he got his, we got ours. But no one ever said the vaccine would be a cure. No one knew how it was going to effect the immune system. Now they are saying a booster is needed especially for those who have autoimmune problems. Just like the Flu shot, there are no guarantees that you won't contract COVID. If you contract, you spread. They hope that if you do, you won't end up hospitalized. I have heard of people still contracting it after being vaccinated. Is it false info, I don't know. I think COVID is here to stay, like the flu. We can't continue making people quarantine forever.
Since I have been vaccinated, I don't wear a mask. I carry one with me and if asked to wear it I do. I don't shop or eat in crowded places. If I need to, then I wear a mask. I still social distance. I respect others opinions because who is to say I am right and they are wrong. If I was somewhere and another person asked me to wear a mask, I probably would because it makes them feel safe. Its so sad seeing people act the way they do. We should be coming together instead this pandemic has ripped us apart.
You and many other believe the CDC, media, politicians, and the big pharms and their data and statistics. All these sources claim vaccines are safe & effective, and deny any death or injury results from the vax.
I and many other believe the inventor of mRNA (used in the COVID shots), doctors and nurses who have seen the horrible side effects and speak out, and the tens of thousands of suspicious deaths, and more than half a million side effects reported after getting vaccinated just in the US alone.
WE all want to be safe, and our loved ones safe.
You believe that vaccines will keep you safe and by us not taking the vaccines, we endanger you.
We believe the vaccine will harm us and by the government/businesses mandating the vaccines, you will endanger us.
Fair?
Also, vaxxers should stop with the insults.
"You and many other believe the CDC, media, politicians, and the big pharms and their data and statistics"
WRONG, I do not believe the CDC, and I sure don't believe media and politicians! Characterize me fairly, I have stated the basis for my position is statements made by Dr. Pollard at the Mayo Clinic (which I invite everyone to view themselves on youtube), the statistics provided by my local hospital system, the people who stand behind those numbers, and my local doctors and nurses who are making appeals. I believe them. About the only thing I believe the CDC about is the total number of dead. The CDC has become a political organization and often tailors its "recommendations" on what is politically correct (which is one reason we find mask mandates resulting in kids running track races with a mask on when there is NO scientific study which supports this as limiting covid spread).
Being unvaccinated means you have a greater risk of dying from this virus. Being unvaccinated means you have a greater chance of spreading this virus, maybe to someone who cannot be vaccinated and isn't strong enough to survive.
I do not want to see people die, the rate of real vaccine complications is much lower than complications of the virus, so I want EVERYONE who can be vaccinated. I understand IF the infection numbers continue to rise as they did here in September, there will come a point when there are no more ICU beds and no more ventilators; when that day comes, the death rate will explode. A little less than half the people requiring ventilators die now, but when there are no ventilators available the half that would have lived will die too.
The average age of the dying has lowered in this cycle of infection for East TN; the unvaccinated are younger and the old (65+) have mostly gotten the jab. Just during September, death has come closer with 9-10 people dying each day of covid. A father of my grand-nephew's football teammate has died from covid, his mother is in the ICU now. A school teacher in his younger brother's middle school has died of covid at age 48. My church friend has buried her 36-year-old grandson because of covid and she now worries for the 2 young children who must grow up without a father. My cousin's FIL, although vaccinated, who was immunocompromised from the meds he took to prevent rejection of his kidney and had heart problems, died at 84. Maybe he didn't have too many years left anyway, but he might not have had to die alone hooked up to machines without the comforting touch of someone who loved him.
PLEASE read information from credible sources. A local doctor here stated he hadn't signed a death certificate or treated someone in the ICU for vaccine complications, but he has signed many death certificates for unvaccinated people. A nurse explains how difficult her job has become, caring for people on vents where half will not survive. Ask yourself if you want to be the person that continues the spread. I look at my 7-year-old grand-nephew and ask myself "what would I do to never see him in an ICU on a ventilator" and the answer is "anything". Getting the jab is easy for me.
For many months, I did not speak out about vaccination out of respect for others' opinions. I still respect others' rights to have differing opinions but the September death toll changed my mind about speaking out. Now I want to see more people decide to become vaccinated because I do not want to see more death. If my appeal can change some minds and keep us from hitting the point of rationed care, it will be worth the people who will be angry with me. The rate of infection in East TN has been slightly reduced in the last couple of weeks; along with the deaths we've dropped to only 60-70% of the available ICU beds and ventilators in use. But the health care system is planning for a new surge in a couple of months... and worrying about the people who will die because they are avoiding routine care now. It's not just people delaying doctor appointments, we've had to put on hold "routine" procedures to free resources to care for the covid load.
Your local doctor may not have treated anyone for vaccine related injuries but that does not mean they don't and have not happened. Without full medical histories regarding the people you cite dying of covid they are just anecdotes and propaganda to me.
Not to mention treatment protocols for these patients. Vents should be a last resort and hospital treatment protocols should be discussed in cause of death of many people. But none of this is ever mentioned. Why?
Same as when others tell stories about issues people have had with the vaxxcines and are told thest instances are anecdotal. A lot of people died from the Spanish flu. Before covid people died and are still dying from the regular flu and pneumonia. It happens. Death from viruses have always happened and death does not discriminate.
The reality is this vaccine is not as effective as they are telling people. After 6 months or so your protection dwindles considerably that's why they are talking indefinite boosters. I don't take the flu vaccine every year and i don't get the flu. So taking the covid vaxx and not getting covid proves nothing because I havent taken it and I have not gotten covid. Others have taken the vaxx and gotten covid.
Please stop spreading the unvaxxed hospitalization propaganda. It is based on old data and hospitals have a perverse incentive to keep this going since they are receiving millions on dollars from the government.
People like you who want everyone vaxxed have an agenda. I have no agenda. If someone wants to take the vaccine go right ahead and do it. But I have a problem when people try and force me or others to get it by trying to destroy their ability to work, etc if I refuse to take it. I have no intention of being the government's or big pharmas b**ch for the rest if my life. Especially since many of the meds pharma makes and are approved cause cancer, dementia, Alzheimer's and more when people take them. Yiu say chances are low you will have an adverse reaction. That is not a chance I am willing to take. Especially since all the vaxx makers are immune from lawsuits from injuries for this vaccine and people like you don't care if somwone takes the shot and suffers complications from it. Based on this alone that is the reason it should be a choice.
We've had several seemingly innocuous pandemic related questions posted by people with zero history on the forum (and they almost never are heard from again), these questions all generate a lot of conflict between members. Trolls?
"It makes no sense to get the shot and still do all that. What really is the point?"
Sense? Sense?!? Who in this whole debate gives a monkey's about sense?
The *point*, though, is that this way I can look my frail, elderly, vulnerable clients and their frightened family members in the eye and tell them truthfully that I (I always say "we," God forgive me) am doing all I can to reduce the risk of transmitting infection.
The vent is this: late yesterday evening, when she really should have been at home, our service manager sent an email instructing all members of staff to attend our main office on Thursday or Friday every week to carry out and register a PCR test. Normally I wouldn't reply, to hear is to obey, I must be the quietest and meekest person on the team, but this was too much. I replied to point out that this means:
additional work for our admins and shift leaders
additional unnecessary contacts
additional journeys into town
inferior methods - I can't get my car as clean as my kitchen counter, and I can't wash my hands in the car park.
In short, this is *worse*! Sense? Ha!
Manager replied with understanding and appreciation. She realises how annoying this must be for those team members who have conscientiously conducted their weekly tests and submitted the results (quite. Every week without fail for five months. It's been a feckin' nuisance). But...
Yes of course I get the point: because some people aren't following the rules, we all have to line up and be made to like naughty children. I'm not going to guess how many team members have been dodging because it would depress me, but I do know we've had at least two positives over the last month, because they've been off work and we are already at full stretch.
I maintain vax neutrality when it comes to other people's choices. I'm having all the protection I can get, if anyone asks me I think they should too, but the choice they make is their confidential medical business and in any case I think it's a terrible idea to undermine informed consent which is the basis of medical practice in Western culture. Evil things have happened, and do happen, when that principle has been abandoned.
One of my co-workers doesn't agree. We were ill at the same time, back in January, but I got off lightly whereas he was a whisker away from needing ventilation. He wants anyone fired on the spot if they're not fully vaccinated and in full compliance, and I'm not sure he only means fired from their job. "Harsh, D," I said mildly. I can't repeat his reply.
I quote from the report: "Mr Lee said the case had made him feel like a second-class citizen and that he was now concerned about 'the implications for all of the gay community.'"
The implications being presumably that they'll have either to choose another baker or make their own cake. The potential suffering hardly bears thinking about.
I try to keep patience and an open mind, and I comfort myself by remembering that it's only the rare exceptions who won't use any bloody common sense in these matters or are actively out to make mischief and thereby the headlines. Most individuals most of the time are pretty good at negotiating life without either running their heads into brick walls or stamping on other people's corns.
People just need to STOP taking things so freaking personally!
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/04/politics/masterpiece-colorado-gay-marriage-cake-supreme-court/index.html
Besides, let's look it in the face - liability insurance my eye, they don't want oiks or any other of those "poorer people" disfiguring their premises, though I don't particularly want to think through why that might be the case at the Tip Shop. Too depressing.
As far as withholding services or excluding access for people without proof of full vaccination goes, I think we're rushing cheerfully into a quagmire of unfathomable depths. Fun times ahead for lawyers!
Why do they want every single man, woman and child on this planet to get this shot for a virus that has a survivability rate of over 98% and is being diagnosed by a test that depending on the cycle threshold will show false positives.
Ask Harvard University which has a 98% plus shot compliance for staff and students why they shut down in person classes because of positive cases of covid. Did you hear this on your regular news outlet's. Or the other university that showed an outbreak of cases but found out all but 3 or 4 cases were actually false positives because of this faulty test that people don't understand can and is being manipulated.
In 2020 at the height of this pandemic NY converted the Javitz Center into a make shift hopital and brought that ship in to also be used. Both places went un used. Same with the majority of the ventilators the governor demanded.
In Missouri they set up triage tents outside the hospital where i live for all the covid cases. It was never used. On the news they are talking about a nursing shortage saying it's because the nurses are burnt out. But we know it's because many dont want the shot. Why? What do these nurses know that is not being reported?
In the AL contract there is usually a section that will say the AL has the right to require certain vaccinations and that the AL shall choose which vaccinations. If this is the case then your mom may be in breach of contract. The AL may choose to enforce the contract or terminate it (as permitted by law).
Your mom is not incarcerated. She has not been kidnapped. She may leave anytime she, or her guardian, wants.
You say the AL is her home and she should be free to do as she wishes as if she were home. But you are wrong. It’s a business. Your mom is a customer. She pays to be there just like the other customers. If there are rules she is contractually obligated to follow and does not want to follow those rules then she must find another business to live at.
What we know in East Tennessee is the non-vaccinated are filling our hospitals and ICUs; they need ventilators too. The numbers are at the highest point since covid hit; including the numbers of people dying. Approximately 25% of new cases are among (unvaccinated) children now and some of them have spent weeks in ICU and some have died too. There have been a very few deaths among the vaccinated, but they have been people who had very bad health and comorbidities (for example my cousin's 84-year-old FIL had an organ transplant and heart issues); over 98% of the hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated. Even if you are vaccinated and get the virus, you have a milder case of it (usually not even requiring hospitalization) and you are less likely to spread it because you have less of a "viral load". There was recently a discussion about the fear the "ration" policy our hospital will implement when there are not enough ventilators and ICU beds to go around will "discriminate" against the unvaccinated... my part in the discussion was to point out that by our current numbers the people being rationed care will be overwhelming the unvaccinated so they do not need to be concerned about being "discriminated" against by people; the virus will have already done that.
An unvaccinated child in our family has had covid-19, apparently contacted at school, and survived, With extra ventilation in the house, no one else unvaccinated in the household got sick; thank God the older kids were vaccinated! Right now, my unvaccinated 67-year-old former SIL is in the ICU, fighting for her life. She felt ill on one day, tested positive the next, and on day three stopped communicating. When her nieces got to her landlord to open her apartment, she was non-responsive on her bed, lying in her own vomit,
The reasonable worst-case scenario for the nonvaccinated is death; the reasonable worst-case scenario for the vaccinated is a mild disease and life. I do not support a federal mandate on vaccination. I do support vaccination mandates by private companies on their employees in high-risk jobs, like bus drivers and healthcare workers.
I personally believe unless there is a medical reason you cannot be vaccinated, you have questionable "executive/decision skills" if you do not get vaccinated, for yourself and for everyone you come into contact with. Follow the science and ignore the politics.
That is why the numbers don't make sense, criteria is being changed to meet the agenda.
This should not be about politics, it should be about informed consent and there in lies the majority of the problems.
When the information is being manipulated to meet whatever agenda is going on then distrust is a certain outcome.
I have read CDC, WHO, NIH and alternative medicine websites and I don't know how any of the numbers justify what has and is going down.
Health care is in a crisis in my city because healthcare workers refuse to take the jab and our facilities are hugely understaffed because of this. These are the same workers that worked diligently before any shot existed, why are they now being pushed out?
To much doesn't make sense when you look at the entire information, not just what one source or MSM publishes.
If it smells fishy, it's probably fish.
Please respect people's right to choose.
It is obvious that OP supports mom's right to not put something in her body that she does not want. She's not asking if she should push her mom to get jabbed. She's asking something entirely different. If you don't want to answer her question, you could always move on to another post instead of judging her and giving unsolicited advice.
LP1955 - I would ask for their policy in writing. Maybe there is a work around. Many workplaces have a "get jabbed OR do weekly testing". Maybe something like that might be an option. Or wearing a mask or social distancing or something? I'm not sure that any of these ideas will be palatable to your mom or acceptable.
Good luck dealing with this.
Karen Croake Heisler: 67-year-old former Notre Dame professor says “d*** the unvaccinated,” dead 12 days after third Pfizer mRNA injection
September 22, 2021
Bevan Costello: 65-year-old Australian indigenous elder receives second Pfizer mRNA injection during televised event, dead six days later
September 29, 2021
Willie Garson: “Sex and the City” actor calls non-vaxxed people “ignorant morons,” dead five months after potential Pfizer mRNA-induced cancer
September 29, 2021
Felicity Jackson: 29-year-old British model suffering continual convulsions, seizures after second Pfizer mRNA injection
October 1, 2021
Francis Perron: 25-year-old University of Ottawa football player dies shortly after football game, mandatory “vaccines” required at the school
September 22, 2021
Leah Taylor: 22-year-old Iowa doctorate student and fitness promoter hospitalized with myocarditis after coerced Pfizer mRNA injection, future uncertain
September 8, 2021
Oscar De La Hoya: former boxing champion latest “fully-vaccinated” athlete to miss events, blame COVID-19 for being hospitalized
September 8, 2021
Denham Hitchcock: Australian journalist hospitalized with pericarditis 25 days after Pfizer mRNA injection, insinuates AstraZeneca is safer
September 1, 2021
Vinny Curry: career likely over for New York Jets (NFL) defensive end after post-injection blood clots, “rare blood disorder”
September 1, 2021
That out of the way…
Unless there is a valid medical reason that she has not had the vaccine not doing so places her at higher risk of getting sick, it places other residents and staff at a higher risk of getting sick.
If there is a valid medical reason she has not received the vaccine I would advocate for her and following proper precautions “social distancing” this may mean she sits alone or with others not vaccinated. And PROPERLY wearing an approved mask. She could participate in some of the activities
Laws no longer matter. Get a lawyer in case they are still concerned about money.
Fear does pretty awful things to people's ability to think beyond what the news tells them and if you disagree or have a differing opinion you get shut down, just like this post will be.
One can test negative on Monday but by Wednesday have covid but doesn't know it because in this case there are no symptoms. Next Monday a test is done and it is positive, and that resident is quarantined. But it's too late, the domino effect already happened last week, other residents got the virus from that one person. Visitors got the virus and took it home with them. A child in the household got the virus and past it along to a playmate, who in turned brought it home and the child's grandparents got it, were hospitalized and passed. And the child may have had a mild case but developed long-haul issues.
That said, a private AL can set down any rules they'd like. They can choose to evict your mother if they so desire, unfortunately, if she decides not to get the jabs. A lawyer or the ombudsman has no voice in their decision, so you are at their mercy as to what activities they choose to limit her to. Hopefully, the AL will stop the nonsense one of these days soon, but for now, they're using punitive measures (as are many other businesses) for those who chose not to be vaxxed.
As you can see by my first paragraph, there's no sense to anything going on right now. Vaxxed or unvaxxed, the virus is now endemic in our world and here to stay. The long term care facilities will ultimately have to decide how they are going to live with that fact moving forward, as will the rest of the human population. Punishing people who choose not to get vaxxed, or cannot get vaxxed for medical reasons, isn't going to change the fact that this virus is with us to stay and nobody is immune to it. Nobody; vaxxed or unvaxxed.
I hope everything works out with your mom's situation.
I think a decision has to be made very soon as to moms position on vaxx & her future ability to socialize w other residents. She will face add’l costs ea month in order to continue reside there (she won’t be evicted, it just will likely cost more as she’s not vaxxed). Or you move her into your home to live with you from here on out.
There seem 2 b 3 interrelated things happening right now for HCW and HC facilities related to Covid.
Hang in here w me on this…. 1st is that Covid Compliance for workplace is now under OSHA so regulated w fine$ that can b issued.
2nd is if a facility participates in Medicare or Medicaid in any way, in order to continue those payments, staff must be vaxxed unless they have a valid exemption and properly file for that exemption before the mandate goes in effect for your state for compliance. So if a AL or NH or MC has Medicaid beds, staff has to be vaxxed. And if a hospital, clinic, hospice, NH, AL or even IL do any kind of direct patient care services that they bill either of the M&Ms for, they have to now have staff vaxxed. Most AL & IL are private pay, so Medicaid beds / billing are not a factor. BUT MediCARE IS…. congregate living places, like IL and AL, will do annual on the premises flu shots, shingles and pneumonia shots AND do regular BP and wellness checks for their residents and it’s maybe the County health Dept health care worker (HCW) who does these or maybe Walgreens/ CVS sends out a team or it’s the RN at the IL or AL who does these. Whatever the case, MediCARE gets billed for these as everyone is over 65 and 99.9% on MediCARE. For IL, ALs, this is a good thing as they cannot afford to private pay a HCW or a clinic to come out an do flu & shingles shots, blood pressure checks, etc. But as they do this, they fall into having to have staff vaxxed for compliance as they are using Medicare $ to pay for a program at this location.
For part 3, for residents in facilities, what is happening is facilities have the data as to the Covid costs from 2020. And they can use that to require residents who refuse to vaxx to have to pay for additional fees or do additional things to remain there unvaxxed. So mom could face having to get weekly or bimonthly antigen &/or PCR testing done. There is now a whole cottage industry of Covid compliance officers who come on-site to routinely do testing at businesses. Insurance isn’t going to pay for this, it’s private pay as its proactive. Might be $ 500 - 1500 mo. It’s not discriminatory as it’s on the behalf of public health & public interest via OSHA workplace regulations. She can also be required to mask and wear disposable gloves anytime she leaves her room. Your mom will become a social pariah. Do you really want this for her?
If she could have a valid exemption, you need to get on having that done ASAP. But gotta tell you, if she did not file ADA medical exemption to flu, pneumonia or shingles vaccine b 4, or has something like Guillian-Barre or allergic reaction in her chart already, filing exemption now for Covid vaxx won’t fly. Religious exemption also have to show some sort of history of prior exemptions or decline of services on religious basis in the past.
Realize that should she become +, she will be transferred to a hospital. Will be no “in her room care” at all. AL does not have to hold her room or apt for her beyond end of that paid month, should she become hospitalized.
She has choices: become vaxxed; do &/or pay whatever actions needed to remain an unvaxxed resident at this facility; or move out. None of this is discriminatory, it’s similar to increased costs for health & life insurance and compliance requirements (like outside only) for smokers.
https://data.cms.gov/covid-19/covid-19-nursing-home-data
If she tests negative, there is no reason to keep her isolated. Ask for a copy of their written COVID protocol.
I just spent some time reading articles and comments from virologists and immunology specialists. And talking to Dr. Joe, my SIL.
NOT ONE person said the vaccine was the 'savior' of the people, but a really good way to do what vaccines DO: create immunity, esp herd immunity, which is what we need.
As the population is more and more vaccinated, people are still catching COVID, that's a known factor in diseases. Some vaccinated people will get sick. B/C there are more vaxxed people dying, but that's b/c there's MORE VAXXED people than, say a year ago.
I'm old enough to remember polio & smallpox. We didn't say a word, just rolled up our sleeves or ate the little sugar cube. EVERYBODY did it. I do not remember my folks having to sign anything to give the school permission to vaccinate me.
Whooping cough is making a comeback. I have 14 grandkids and their parents all asked my DH and I to get boosters for that. We did so, happily.
I am fully vaxxed, plus a booster. Yes, it made me hella sick, but that just means I got a good immunity to it.
I respect anyone's right to not be vaccinated. But I won't hang out with you.
Dr SIL's own parents refuse to be vaccinated. Even now after they went through COVID and his mom should have been in the hospital. He will not allow them around his kiddoes AT ALL. Their loss, as they are now not getting the jab to show their son they can't be bossed. SMH
And yes, he's lost patients to covid. In his case, not one of them was vaccinated. I'm not making any point except that he said in his hospital, not one patient in the ICU had been vaxxed, as of Saturday.
Personally, I can't take another winter being locked indoors and living in fear. We take precautions, we are careful and we got vaccinated. Our choice.
I hate the fear that pervades. These vaccines were built upon previously created vaccines--they have been as researched as they could be. All medical science stands on the shoulders of previous studies--that's why they were able to get workable vaccines out so fast.
I'm personally so grateful for them.
Woooohoooo, that Booster gave me an uplifting feeling. Like it was freedom to go places with very little worry. Yes, I too, also have my mask ready if it needs to be worn.
I'd be interested to learn what records the ALF is keeping on its staff's vaccinations, too. If you were feeling mischievous you might like to ask them.
That said, I personally am a strict complier - I've just had my six-month booster jab with not a ghost of an ill-effect, I still wear a mask in all public venues and full PPE at clients' homes, and if the rules said we all had to stuff a pickled onion in our left ear to be on the safe side I'd probably keep a straight face and go right ahead. In a way it isn't about medical or statistical certainties, it's about good manners and the social contract.
What is your mother's main objection (apart from a disinclination to be pushed around, which I can fully understand but don't agree it's worth the hassle)?
Like others, I have questions as to the validity of the demands and edicts being issued from those allegedly at the top of government, not necessarily in terms of legal basis but b/c the information over time has been questionable, and also b/c the pandemic is a smoldering political football.
However, I did get vaccinated and will get the booster, b/c at my age I don't want to take any chances, also b/c it's obvious that certain sections of the population have behaved irresponsibly and w/o concern for the rest of us. But I didn't get vaccinated right away; I did a lot of research, especially on side effects of each vaccine, before I made my decision.
And BTW, no way would I get anything from Johnson & Johnson after learning about its attitude on asbestos in talcum powder.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/
FreqFlyer makes a good point about population cooperation. The political environment has changed, there's so much friction at many levels, and the kind of team spirit that has existed periodically and at critical times throughout our history is under assault.
Back to the basic issue: is there some reason why your mother won't get vaccinated?
They have the right to make the rules, so get her the shot, or find somewhere else for her to live that doesn't require it. (Good luck with that.)
There is zero legal precedent for you to stand on to demand they change the rules for Mom, so don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Get the shot. My mother had Covid in January, and it destroyed her circulatory system. It didn't kill her, but she had huge open wounds on her legs for the rest of her life. Dying is not necessarily the worst thing to happen from Covid -- sometimes the after effects are pretty horrible, too. I can't believe you'd risk that.
No guarantee that the vax won't kill you.
It is very much about how healthy you are before you get the shot or virus.
I am sorry that your mom suffered in her last days.
I did not get my vaccine until I saw what type of reactions people got. My BIL is a Dr. of Immunology and he didn't get his until he researched. When he got his, we got ours. But no one ever said the vaccine would be a cure. No one knew how it was going to effect the immune system. Now they are saying a booster is needed especially for those who have autoimmune problems. Just like the Flu shot, there are no guarantees that you won't contract COVID. If you contract, you spread. They hope that if you do, you won't end up hospitalized. I have heard of people still contracting it after being vaccinated. Is it false info, I don't know. I think COVID is here to stay, like the flu. We can't continue making people quarantine forever.
Since I have been vaccinated, I don't wear a mask. I carry one with me and if asked to wear it I do. I don't shop or eat in crowded places. If I need to, then I wear a mask. I still social distance. I respect others opinions because who is to say I am right and they are wrong. If I was somewhere and another person asked me to wear a mask, I probably would because it makes them feel safe.
Its so sad seeing people act the way they do. We should be coming together instead this pandemic has ripped us apart.