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This one is for anyone in Victoria AUS. My husband is in permanent dementia care. He has FTD. I cannot take his phone away nor can staff. He has started getting taxis and coming to the house. He is becoming increasingly volatile and threatening. Is there any legal action I can take to stop him being here up without notice. I share a house with my son and grandchildren. My son co-parents every other weekend. His wife could ask that the children don’t come with this happening. Thanks

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Talk with an attorney. This is not a place to seek legal advice.
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MargaretMcKen Oct 2022
Legal advice is not what OP needs, and finding a lawyer with this expertise is not easy at all.
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We have at least two Aussie posters here; one is a retired lawyer. Let me ping them and see if they have any advice.

Who is paying for the phone? I would cancel the number.
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
Tried that. It only makes things worse. Legally nobody can take the phone away. I have tried blocking him from making calls but he totally loses it and starts using the wall phone intimidating the care staff
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This is a site for seeking advice and I need advice about where to start. So thanks anyway
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BarbBrooklyn Oct 2022
Panda, stick around. They will get you recommendations.

Can the phone be disabled? Numbers blocked?
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Is a psychiatrist seeing him? Sound like he needs meds for agitation.
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
He is on the meds staff can give him anything stronger can only be issued in a psychiatric ward
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I am in the US but my Mothers facility has memory care and they are in a special wing where they cant wander. A key fob is needed to get in and out and only staff can let someone in or out.

is there a facility like this in your area?
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
His facility is like this but legally the can’t stop him from leaving
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Hoping that Margaret sees this soon, since we don't understand the AUS legal system.

It sounds to me as though he needs admission to a psych facility in order to get him on the right meds and then discharged back to his current facility. Will the Social Worker at the current facility help facilitate that?
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
No. Things are different here. It’s very hard to get this. Also very hard to have him declared diminished capacity. I am going here by f asking how m to be put in a psych ward for a while but he may lose his place in care. Very few care facilities will take FTD patients
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With a diagnosis of FLD, I would speak with an attorney about getting a diminished capacity ruling so he can be restrained. I know you state this step is difficult but I would pursue it anyway because of the dementia. With dementia the brain is broken. It no longer matters if the person was previously agreeable or not, they no longer have the capacity to think about others or the consequences of their actions and it is only going to get worse over time. Difficult is not impossible. Good luck and I hope our Australian contributers will have more actionable advice soon.
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You’ll probably get some legal advice from Australians here, so keep checking. In the meantime, you could change locks on the doors, in case he has keys to get in. Surely if he comes on the property, you can have him removed? Find out if No Trespassing signs are allowed and ask what your options are if he violates them.
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I understand that there may be different rules in Australia when it comes to the mentally incompetent and mentally ill then in the Unites States or somewhere else.
If your husband is permanently in a care facility because of his dementia, someone else is making his decisions. I will state the obvious here and please bear with me. When a person gets put into a dementia facility it is because they cannot care for themselves. They are mentally incompetent and must have 24-hour around-the-clock supervision. I don't understand how the dementia care facility he lives in allows him to call a taxi and leave whenever he likes.
The facility can definitely prevent him from leaving by locking the doors.
You can also do a few things to prevent him from showing up. Like disabling his phone. The facility may not be able to take the phone away, but nothing is stopping you or your son from going to 'visit' at the facility and taking the battery out. He has the phone but it no longer works. Or, you can stop paying the cellphone bill and the phone will get shut off. I'm pretty sure your husband in the dementia care facility isn't making out the bills anymore. You can also get a list and call all the local taxi companies in the area that he uses. Tell them plainly who you are (his wife) and that he is mentally incompetent and a permanent resident of a dementia facility. They are not to send a taxi to him FOR ANY REASON. When he calls a taxi company have them call you at immediately. If he becomes persistent and keeps calling the taxi company tell them to call the police because this harassment is costing them business. The police will put pressure on the care facility to get him under control. Call the police if he shows up at your house.
There are some things you can do. If he can't get to your house, he can't be a danger to you, your grandkids, or himself.

Let's recap. While you're trying to get the diminished capacity declared in court, try any of the following in the meantime:

-Disable his phone by removing the battery
-Stop paying his cellphone bill. The phone service then be shut off.
-Speak to the cab companies he uses. Tell them he lives in a dementia facility and they are not to send a cab there FOR ANY REASON. If they do, they can then look foward to getting sued.
-Call the police if he shows up at your house.
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Its almost 12pm EST where I live so its 3AM in Australia. Margaret is sleeping at this point. So you will need to wait a little longer for that answer.

We had an OP tell us that in her state that she was not allowed to take the phone from a LO in a Care facility because by law they had a right to have one. Is this how it is in AUS? Or is it he becomes violent when someone tries to remove it?

Here in the States we have Assisted Living and Memory Care. With my Moms AL because the residents were those who were competent and those who were not, there was a code entry lock on the front door. Needed a code to get in and out. The fire doors could be gotten out of if the bar was pushed for 15 seconds. Memory care is a step up from AL for those with Dementia and these are lock down units. If you lived here your husband would be in MC. He would also be medicaid.

We also have the ability to place restraining orders on someone. Meaning when DH showed up, the police could be called to return him back to the facility.

In the Stares, if a person suffering from Dementia came to my house from his facility and was threatening, I could call the Police, tell them I was afraid for my life and they could Baker act him. This means time in a Psychiatric facility where the person would be given a cocktail of drugs to see what works. Then returned to the facility he was previously at.

Like said, you really need to contact a Lawyer to find out what your rights are. I think FTD is the worst of the Dementias because the person can be violent. Here, these people are in lockdown facilities and on medication because they are a danger to others and themselves.
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
He is in a locked down facility but they can’t stop him leaving if he wants to because he hasn’t been declared unable to make an informed decision he leaves and wanders the streets whenever he likes. I am going to look into a restraining order but don’t know if you can do that with a mentally ill person
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Oh. My. God. I have no advice for you b/c I'm not in AUS, but I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you're going thru such a horrible thing. And that the rules/laws in AUS are such that a 'dementia care' facility cannot contain a dementia patient and allows them to call taxi's to go wherever they want to go. Absolutely ludicrous and SO dangerous for him and for you.

I hope you can get resolution to this situation right away Pandabear. BEST OF LUCK.
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Call the police whenever he shows up; seems like the facility is liable of neglect by not putting him in "lockdown."

https://www.victimsofcrime.vic.gov.au/the-crime/types-of-crime/family-violence

Ask the authorities for help and make sure he has a Geriatric Psychiatrist.
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Katefalc Oct 2022
Maybe some medication to calm him when he try’s to flee ? If the unit is LOCKED , how does he get out? They should not LET him leave. What kind of facility operates this way? Don’t they use medication?
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Dementia.org.au appears to be the official site with good resources about legal rights and the like.

Panda, have you looked into having your husband declared incapacitated?

In the US, if a person is a danger to him/herself, they can be detained.
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
When he entered permanent care he was still seen as being able to make some decisions Eg. Clothes food etc. Earlier this year he was accessed again and still seen as competent in basic day to day decisions. He is on 67 and a big, extremely strong man. You couldn’t stop him leaving the facility which is how a compromise has been made. The facility will do their best to deter him but they can’t stop him. I think I will take the advice and look into getting a restraining order so if he does just show up again, the police will have to show up. They will then call an ambulance to return him to care home under police escort.
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Do you have power of attorney? It may balled something different there. If you can take over the right ti make decisions in his best interest you would be able to stop his freedom to leave the facility.

i am so sorry, it seems detrimental to him and a liability to the facility
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First, I am so sorry for this awful brain condition effecting your Husband.

He can't control his impulses or behaviour, so very strong boundaries will be need to be put in place. For you & your family's safety, but also for his.

The crux here is blame the illness. Not him.

The legal & medical terms that may help;

*Treatment Order*
A legally enforced hold (similar to Baker Act in US).
"be taken to, detained and treated in a designated mental health service".
Can start with a Temporary Treatment Order (TTO) & move to a TO if required.
May also be called Involuntary Treatment Order or Community Treatment Order (CTO).

*Intervention Order*
"Family violence intervention order (FVIO) - a court order to protect a person, their children and their property from a family member, partner or ex-partner."

However, the FVIO is a legal deterent - it can not physically prevent access. It will be useless against his altered thinking.

Right now, I have many questions regarding the facility.

1. Locked dementia specific ward. I am not sure how he is absconding?

2. I thought facilities are mandated to report escapees to Police? *See below

3. Is he aggressive/violent towards staff & they let him go??

4. In the community, violent behaviour endangering himself or others warrants Police or CATT (crises assessment treatment team).
Ask the facility what their procedure is. I would expect esculation to nearest Acute Psych Care in nearest public hospital via ambulance.

While dementia is not actually a mental illness, it is a brain disease, it all falls under the Health Service & the Psych area is probably best set up to deal with. Geriatric Psychiatry is the specific area needed.

Assessment & Treatment Orders are arranged as deemed necessary. Emergency Guardianship may also be needed.

* Note: the Aged Care Quality & Safety Commission website advises from 1 Dec 2022, updated Serious Incident Response Scheme. This includes;
"Unexplained absence from care – where the consumer is absent from the service without explanation and there are reasonable grounds to report the absence to the police".

The aged care facility MUST report his absence to Police immediately, everytime.
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MargaretMcKen Oct 2022
Beatty, some of this is probably not for Oz, and not for a situation where the parties have been separated for good reasons for quite a long time. The police really are the most obvious first call. It doesn't mean an automatic charge or detention.

OP needs to be very careful not to drift into being responsible for the health and care issues. She needs to get into 'the system' that will deal with it at arms' length from her.
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Panda, it’s a confusing situation – I can’t grasp how a locked facility can’t keep it locked! That’s the point, after all! To stop people getting out, not in.

I’d say 1) Apply to the police for a restraining order. There is no exemption I know about for people with mental illness – in fact many of the domestic violence murderers quite possibly qualify. However it’s an unusual one for the police. You need to take with you notes about his increasing threats, and also his past behavior that led him into locked care. I’d stress the potential harm and children’s upset to the police, and I’d go to a Domestic Violence service for women if you don’t do too well with the police. Don't link it to your son's marriage issues, it only clouds the situation. Try police stations where you are, and also where the facility is. Either is appropriate.
2) Yes, he may well use the same taxi company each time, and you can tell them the situation. Do it in writing, with any back up evidence you have. Obviously you send them a copy once you get a restraining order. They may not be willing to do anything until then.
3) Find out who ‘owns’ the facility. Make an appointment to see the real boss, not the staff on the ground (though putting them on notice first is only fair), You want them to get a diagnosis for your husband that will give them the authority to operate as a locked facility, which is what they hold themselves out to be. It's not an excuse if they say that they can't do it without his permission until they have a diagnosis, and they can't get a diagnosis because he doesn't permit it. Take a witness with you, and write down the management comments immediately.
4) Tell them that you will be making a complaint to the Commonwealth funding department if they don’t sort it out. Your complaint will be that they are not operating as a locked facility, they are ignoring your husband’s mental health problems and mental health needs, and failing to undertake the supervised care that they purport to provide. There is also a designated Commonwealth complaints section relating to aged care facilities, which you will use. Make it clear that your notes are for that purpose. Notes made promptly after an incident have a special status in formal and legal proceedings. Make them in the waiting room before you leave, so that they know you’ve done it and you are serious about the complaint. Keep dated notes for all these meetings.
5) You can also threaten (genuinely) that you will use the Police Complaints system. Failing to respond to DV issues is a hot topic at the moment. It’s not an excuse for them to say that it’s not the normal DV problem.

This is probably happening because DH is only causing problems to you, your son and grandchildren. The staff at the facility have no incentive to make it their problem and have him becoming hard to manage on their premises. You need to make it THEIR problem. You do that by telling them the steps you are taking – talking to the boss, going to the police, and complaining to their funding body for inadequate supervision and care. The more fuss you make at each stage, the more likely they are to get working on the problem. If that doesn’t work, threaten to go to the ABC – aged care and domestic violence are about the top topics of interest. A pity he’s not transgender – you would have hit all targets at once! And go to the ABC, if you have to.

My understanding is that you have been separated from your husband for a considerable time, for good reasons. Do not get engineered into taking responsibility yourself for his care or treatment.

This is a real pain in the neck for you, and you certainly should not have to do all this yourself. You might find a support social worker through a Domestic Violence service, someone who knows the ropes and can also provide you with some personal support. Best wishes, and good luck, Margaret
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PandabearAUS Oct 2022
I have to admit I’m pretty fed up with the care home putting his behaviour back on to me. I think I will seek legal advice re a restraining order so if it happens again police will have to attend and return him to care. Thanks for your advice
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Panda, have you talked to your GP about this?

What advice did you get?

I would say call 000 if Husband turns up & is aggressive but the reason I suggested CATT is they are the experts in mental health. They will take someone to hospital (not Police station which is the wrong place for your Husband).

But check if your GP has better advice. Also, I am not sure if CATT is for +65s (if he is).
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Is your Husband still managing his banking, phone bill & bank cards independantly?

Most residents would not be, so even if breaking out, would not have the phone skills to call a taxi or money to pay for it.

At only 67 too, very tragic.

I imagine thinking, moods & behavior fluctuates?

No-one would want to strip him of using skills he has... taking away phone & money prematurely. But these also enable him to escape.

I can't really see an Intervention Order being very useful. The consequence being Police returning him to his address - the Care Facility. Then what? He leaves again. It won't stop him.

I personally could not live that level of stress.

I am trying to think of alternatives for you until such time that his phone & cards are taken away &/or a Treatment Order brings something like long acting meds.

- Install a location sharing app on his phone, to enable you & the Care Facility to know his location (need concent).
- have a regular visits with him in the Facility coffee shop or even a local coffee shop insted (if safe to do so).
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Panda, most restraining orders are taken out by the individual and through the police, you don't need to do it through a lawyer. Particularly if money for a lawyer is an issue, that's why I said first to go to the police.
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Who is paying for the phone? Who can stop payments?
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What do you mean by “permanent dementia care?” If he is in a facility for people with dementia, how does he get out?
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You need POA and to control the money. Get lawyer that can help with phone. My husband's phone was in his name so they wouldn't do for me but get a psychiatrist to help. He is endangering himself leaving. In US you could call police on escape and they would take to psych hospital for evaluation. They would take the phone while showing. FTD is tough because in the beginning they can still do things. He should not have access to any money. You need to see elder lawyer to protect your assets. Speaking from FTD experience myself. He could get on phone and if it has internet access he could give all money away to scammers promising him a place to live or saying that they would buy him a car. Change facilities if you have to. Get the phone. Get money control. Steal phone charger while he's eating in dining room. Talk to his neurologist about the situation. Get neuropsychological testing to prove incompetancy.
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Just read some of your answers. Here the facilities have a 30 day bed hold so they save your room to go back to.
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I agree with the very first poster “gladimhere” that you should not ask for “legal” advice here. This site is international and the internet is where anyone can claim to be a lawyer (no put down intended to those who really are). Contact a local eldercare attorney who knows the laws where you are. In the US, we sometimes have city, county, state and/or national laws that may affect a final decision of legal or not. This is why anyone looking for a “legal” answer should not ask here. This site is best for questions like has “anyone here” ever dealt with this or how would “anyone here” handle this situation.

You can count on support with encouraging advice from other caregivers on this site but not legal advice.

For example… The legal advice I receive may not be exactly the same as anyone else unless they and their loved one live in my zip code and have the exact same eldercare legal documents in place when they ask the question.
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JoAnn29 Oct 2022
Margaret is from AUS.
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Why isn’t he in a “ locked” dementia unit?? This sounds a little “ off”. If he has dementia and is not of sound mind he needs to be SAFE in a locked dementia unit where he can not wander or leave and get injured or injure someone else. Why can’t you take his phone if you are his wife? He would probably not remember he had one. Contact a lawyer in your area to get sound legal advice. Laws are different depending on where you live. Good luck. 💜
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JoAnn29 Oct 2022
This is Australia. Health system maybe different than US,
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The facility should not be allowing him to leave. With dementia he could end up anywhere and lost by just calling for rides. You might need to move him to facility that provides better security for memory care.
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How old is your husband? How about a restraining order unless your husband provides prior visiting notice? What more details.
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Do psychiatric hospitals except dementia patients?
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Beatty Oct 2022
Private hospital - maybe. Psychiatric care can be obtained in a smaller private Mental Health Hospital (if patient insured) & if they treat dementia - this will vary.

Public hospitals - yes.
These are a government funded service & they accept everyone for anything. (Exceptions being rural, where transfer to a larger city hospital may be necessary).

The elderly may be admitted to a geriatric medical ward. If absconding is a risk, to a locked door ward. A large hospital may have a specialised Geri-Psych unit. The public rehabs also treat Geri-Psych patients.
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He doesn’t sound like he has Dementia to me. He can find his way home and take a taxi as well as use the phone. ? Has he always been violent. Is that the real reason he cannot stay? Also, what does the initial's stands FTD? Maybe he’s acting like that bc he wants yo bd home. Is there anyway he can stay home and bd taken care of by a caregiver? Remember marriage through thick in thin. What goes around comes around.
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cxmoody Oct 2022
FTD means Frontal Temporal Dementia.

It is very different from other types of dementia.

Many times, there is no memory loss.

Many times, patients have challenges with violent behavior. That could be why the OP needs to be separated from her husband. Her life may even be in danger.
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PandabearAUS: Perhaps you'll have to seek a restraining order since your husband's "care home" is permitting his actions. Good heavens, since when does a facility allow a dementia patient to call a taxi cab?! That's totally unacceptable.
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