How do you you overcome guilt when your parents are stubborn?

Why spend an hour on the phone listening to moaning and groaning from a mother who dwells in misery because she chooses to? Nip that in the bud and say you have to go as soon as the ugliness ramps up. 10 minutes on the phone is plenty. For someone whose cognitive testing is great, mom sure sounds like she's doing poorly, especially hating on dead relatives who aren't even around to irritate her anymore 🙄

And why would YOU feel guilty about THEIR stubbornness and marital issues?? That makes no sense to me. Nor does waiting for mom to be happy for you which isn't going to happen. Some of us got shortchanged in the mother department and it's best to just accept that fact rather than try to jump thru fiery hoops to change it. I tried for years until one day I woke up and said WHY are you doing this? Killing yourself to make HER happy when it's NOT gonna happen?? That's the day I backed off of the quest and started living my life for ME and my family.

A mother can only hurt a daughter who's willing to BE hurt. I used to approach my mother with an invisible shield of armor held up in front of me. To ward off the blows she'd be doling out. Let those arrows bounce off of you! And spend LIMITED time exposed to the toxic fumes emanating from the woman. If you like yourself, that's all that matters.

Here is a good website to check out about how to recognize passive-aggressive covert narcissistic behaviors and cope with them:

https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/

Ditch the guilt and FOG (fear obligation and guilt) and spend less time interacting with mother. That's my advice.

Good luck to you.

"Both of their cognitive testing is great."

Unless you were in the exam room with them and saw and heard their test and convo with their doctor... I would doubt this info. Elders fib all the time (or incorrectly recall) cognitive test results.

"Stubbornness" and irrational/illogical thinking plus lack of empathy are all symptom of dementia.

Please watch some Teepa Snow videos on YouTube to find more info and learn strategies on how to interact with your LO for more productive and peaceful interactions.

Old habits are hard to change, especially if your Mom was in charge of doing all the housework, thus it is difficult to anyone else to step in. When my Dad retired, he wanted to help Mom around the house. Well, that wasn't go to happen peacefully. Mom didn't want Dad any where near the laundry room, nor the kitchen. I was shocked to see Dad vacuuming, but I am sure there was a lot of trial and error, and hitting furniture legs. Later when they refused to replace their dishwasher, Mom let Dad wash the dishes.

Let's not forget, our parents still view us as "children". When my parents were in their 90's, they still viewed me as some one being in their 20's or 30's, not the senior citizen that I was. When I said I couldn't do something they looked at me like my hair was on fire. Yes, I felt guilty, but later realized it wasn't my problem, it was theirs.

You are enabling them.

You can stop whenever you want.

I find your question very odd. Why in the world would any child be guilty because their parents are stubborn???
So they're stubborn. So what? So am I. Does that mean that my children should feel guilty about that? Of course not! They didn't make me that way and they can do absolutely nothing about it, but accept me just the way I am. And they do.
And I'm guessing because your parents do give you a "paycheck" from their business that you feel in some way obligated to put up with their nonsense.
Well I have news for you. You don't. Yet you choose to. Interesting. Why? Because you're afraid of losing that extra bit of money in your bank account?
Or is it because you are in hopes for some type of approval from your mom that you already know in your heart of hearts you will never receive, yet you keep going back for more.
I'm sorry you never received from your mom what you felt you needed. A lot of us didn't, but most of us have learned how to move on in a healthy way and not feel "guilty" in the least because of it.
Perhaps the word you really mean is grief and not guilt. Often people on here get the 2 words confused.
And we would understand you grieving the fact that your parents lacked in their parenting skills and that you felt cheated in some areas.
Your parents will never change, but you can if you so choose.
So next time your mom starts talking junk, you immediately end the conversation and tell her that you will call her back when she can be more positive.
And if she takes away your "paycheck" because of you putting your foot down, well so be it. Wouldn't it be worth it in the long run? I certainly believe that it would.

I am certain your parents have a LIFETIME of practice at bickering with one another, with you, and with everything else. They are good as it now.
As to you, the word "GUILT" infers responsibility and CAUSE.
You didn't cause your parents problems. You aren't responsible for fixing them.
Hence no guilt.

How about changing out your G-words because the words we tell ourselves form paths of belief in our brains.
Try on the GRIEF word for another G.
Grief that your parents have so many limitations.
Grief that you still believe they might change.

My suggestion?
Move 1,000 miles away. Or get a psychologist to shake you out of your habitual ways of thinking and acting. I think it might be cheaper to move the 1,000 miles away in the long run.

They are NOT going to change
They are NOT going to compromise

YOU can change.
You can cut the conversation short when she starts in on his side of the family.
You can cut the conversation short when she starts in on you.
If your mom has never been happy with you or with things in general that will not change.

She can do her laundry and cleaning the way she wants as long as it is she doing the work and she is not asking you to do it for her.

He can go to the stores he wants to as long as either he is providing his own transportation or if you are it is CONVENIENT for you to take him where he wants to go.

If you are doing things for them that are "propping them up" pull back on what you are doing.

Farmer, as far as my mom always making me feel bad for doing anything for myself, the list is endless.

I could go on forever, if I accidentally mentioned I went to any store without her, I get grief, if I mention I went out for lunch . Anything I do for myself. I got a haircut last week, probably worst of all sins.

This is the one thing that has been the most depressing thing about caregiving.

I didn't understand why would a mother not be happy that I try to fit in a 2 mile walk , most days. It was impossible to even understand.

Then I joined this, and started reading about dementia. I highly suspect vascular dementia. Seeing that she has battles high BP her whole life. And it fits, things are starting to fall into place for me.

Bottom line she has always been manipulative, controlling but this has gotten to such extreme.

I'm starting to accept the fact that she is NEVER going to change, it will get worse, and me trying to explain things to her is not worth it. And I need to start changing the way I do care giving. When she say anything that sounds prejudice to others I just ignore it or change the subject, there is no explaining to her at this point. I don't think anything is getting in anymore

When I need to get a covid vaccine but need a few days to be sick after, she just considers me being a baby , or trying to get time away from her. I'm done explaining my back hurts so I can't do something. All it does is frustrate me.

I'm learning to just ignore stuff, not explain stuff, and it is starting to make me happier, but also make me a better caregiver when I'm with her, and more patient.

Hang up the phone. Turn off the Facebook. Make the right choices for your husband and yourself. Don't accept being manipulated by your parents, esp your mother. She'll just have to complain to somebody else. Her accusations that you "don'tcare," are her attempt to get your sympathy and attention. You might have to say to her, "You are right. I don't care about your constant compkaining.". She can either fix her problems or complain somewhere else or let the problems go and become a more relaxed person. ( Not likely!--she would have to give up all that attention she gets by creating drama.)

My mother, who had mobility and hearing problems, loved going on cruises. With many misgivings, two relatives and I took her on "her last cruise." OMG. It took all three of us to manage her - pushing her around in her wheelchair, managing her walker, helping her dress, go to the bathroom, etc. She was always good at laying on the guilt, but in the first couple of days, she was pretty good.

We were taking turns pushing her wheelchair. It wasn't easy on a ship. And of all things, she got mad. Why? Because we kept talking to each other, not to her. It upset her that our heads were on the same level above her as we were charting our path through the crowds, onto elevators, and so on. According to her, we were cutting her out of the conversation because not only weren't we stooping to her level to speak to each other, SHE COULDN'T HEAR US! (We'd told her she needed hearing aids long before, but she'd refused.)

We refused to feel guilty. NO GUILT! She was in a huff, but it went away after she ate two or three desserts. Sometimes they are so ludicrous you just have to ignore it.

Unbelievably, it wasn't her last cruise. We went again!

Some years ago, we had to borrow $1500 from my FIL to pay for a newer car. We made up a payment schedule and I made payments for a few months. This drove my MIL insane. But the money was from my FIL's account, not hers. She never missed a chance to bring up this 'loan'.

I remember my MIL being upset that I had bought my 2 little kids new shoes. Just from Payless Shoes, so it's not like I was dressing them in Manolo Blahniks or something.

She made this snarky comment "Wow, I wish I was able to just go but 4 pairs of shoes whenever I wanted. I had to count my pennies!".

I said "These are a pair of play shoes and pair of Sunday shoes and they cost less than $25 for the 4 pairs. Don't you want your grandkids to have SHOES?"

She replied "You are bleeding my son dry, you know".

I think that may have been the beginning of my realization that she simply was not going to be 'happy' about ANYTHING I did.

The very next day after this comment from her, we paid off the loan. It was always going to be a temporary one. Never borrowed from them ever again, but the way she told it, we did it all the time.

I did feel guilty, at the time, b/c I allowed her to make me feel that way.

Yet--why? We were paying back the small debt with interest higher than what the bank was paying him, so FIL was not losing out on anything. MIL just wanted something to b7tch at me about.

Yet, if I had let the kids go without shoes, I would have heard about that too.

For a truly selfish person, they don't need an excuse to be nasty.

If I were you--I'd place some really tough boundaries and enforce them.

YOU didn't make them stubborn, or old, or anything. And you can't make them NOT be the way they are.

Boy is this familiar to me . And it only got worse once my mother got dementia . Don’t feel bad , I was like you , tried to fix everything just to get kicked in the teeth by Mom. And both parents were stubborn about things being a certain way . Dad learned to compromise to a degree . Mom did not.

I learned and so can you .
First of all , there is no reason to feel guilty. You didht make them old and you can’t fix old. You can’t fix their personalities , their marriage is not yours to fix either . I would even tell them next time they try to drag you into their fights that you are not getting into their marital disputes . Tell her you don’t want to hear her complaints about the relatives either.

Do not stay on the phone for an hour . When she starts her cr4p about relatives etc. . Come up with an excuse to get off the phone . You have an appt , errands to run , chores to do etc.

Do not tell your mother about your life , when you are going away with your husband, seeing friends etc. Your mother will use it against you to try to make you feel guilty. Don’t cancel your plans any longer. Do not tell them anything about your children .

You can’t make other people happy . It is not your responsibility to make them happy. And forget about your mother be happy for you . She is old and is only focused on her wants. She isn’t capable of thinking about you . She may even have a mental illness . She is very manipulative and gas lights you.

Those that need assistance are the ones who need to compromise, meaning you don’t take them to multiple stores , just to get one item at each . That’s ridiculous . You decide how often you can come if at all . They can order , or you can order things to be delivered to them as well .

You stop putting your life on hold . Go back to your job . You stop dropping things and canceling things . You help them when it’s convenient for you.
They can hire someone else to help them . It does not have to be you. If they won’t and say they only want you to help them . Tell them you are sorry but you have gone back to your regular job .

They are competent , therefore you could back away and let them arrange help for themselves. You help them when you can with what they NEED, not what they want . Needs and wants are not the same . They need food . Taking them on an outing is a want , which is up to you, if you want to treat them .

I’m so sorry . This is likely not to get better since your mother especially seems not willing to ever come around to compromise . It will only get worse as they need more help .

Your mother will get mad. Let her be mad. She’s a miserable unhappy person to begin with and that’s not your fault . Live your life. Let your mother stew in the pot she wants to stay in . She doesn’t want to be happy. That’s what I realized about my mother . She just wanted to make everyone miserable with her . Your mother is only nice to you when you do what she wants. She doesn’t care about anyone but herself. I recommend going to a therapist to help you reconcile this . I also recommend you limit your time with them . I also would stop taking the check they give you. It just lets them think that you have to do things their way. It would be different if they sounded more reasonable about making compromises to make things easier in you.

I and others here could write volumes about dealing with similar situations to yours. Keep coming back here . We will try to help you .

Yes. My Mom also loves to lay the guilt and has a whole "poor me" routine that she goes through anytime I won't cater to her (like offering to warm up her coffee for the 10th time in an hour when I need to get going-yes she even complains if I don't 'offer' to do things). When feeling guilty these things are helping me:
1. Listing things I've done for her(a long list) and things I said no to(a very short list) over the last year. Then looking at the 'No's'. Was it unreasonable to say no to that? It helps me to see when I haven't acted selfishly and shouldn't feel guilty.
2. I visualize someone in her place(like me). What if they were making these demands of my children? Or treating them the way she's been treating me? That really puts the situation back into perspective.
My Mom also tries to give her opinions about my children, that they should "do this/don't do that" (which would directly free up our time, to cater to her more!). I'm learning to laugh about the crazy things I see and hear

#1 Happiness. It is a state of mind.
A person is responsible for their OWN happiness.

#2 The put-downs.
Some people attempt to plump themselves up by up by putting others down. If this is your Mom (about in-laws) just on a bad day.. ok... give her 2 mins of that then change topic. If this has become her go-to style, divert divert divert.

#3 Time has value.
".. after an hour on the phone".
Whoa, wind that back.
Repeat after me now 'I am not a listening post'. My time has value & I choose how much time I give.

Welcome! I am glad you found us here ☺️

Realize that they have an emotional need to belittle each other and you. Maybe their self esteems are so low they can only feel better when others feel worse. Don't play this game with them. Whatever the motivation, you need to develop a game plan to deal with the problem behaviors when they arise. Please read any of the "boundary books" by Townsend and Cloud, 2 therapists who have a proven step-by-step method to create a plan to deal with problem behaviors. If need be, spend some time weekly with a therapist to develop and implement your plan.

Cut the negative calls short, let them be stubborn. You didn't make them get old and stubborn. You have no reason to feel guilt, especially being Mom's punching bag. Just cut her short when the bullying starts! You have someone at the door, your dinner timer went off, you have another call coming in, the dryer buzzed...

Don't waste so much time and energy on their NEGATIVITY. That is time you will never get back.
STOP running over when they want something. They aren't helpless, or have dementia, do they? Set up grocery delivery instead, don't cancel vacations, or invite them to dinner. You are allowing her to wear you down. Start cutting back NOW.

When she starts trash talking the In-laws, just stop her by saying, "I don't want to talk about them....is there anything else? I have to do laundry, dishes, run errands, go to the bank, etc."...any excuse to cut the calls short. Keep them under 15 minutes, then cut her off. If she runs you down, tell her she can have her opinion, but you don't have to listen to it.

Only drive over to help ONE DAY A WEEK. They can make a list. Not snap their fingers and you come running! You give them too much power over you!

I would guess Dad avoids talking to her since she only complains. If I found out my Mom trash talked me to others after all I did for her, that would be it. Go back to work and quit being a minimum wage go-fer that gets no respect!

Why is it your duty to wait on them and listen to their ranting? That cuts into your own family time....TIME YOU WILL NEVER GET BACK.

Farmerskid12: They most likely are not going to change. YOU can change in regard to their expectations of you and your respones. Don't jump or be at their beck and call especially when the mean spiritedness comes out.

Therapy has never been more socially acceptable, but it’s still subject to negative stigma. One effective method to get reluctant family members to attend is to see a therapist who offers both one-on-one and family therapy, and tell your mom and/or dad you NEED them to attend at least one session with you.

They may only attend if they have the “face-saving” excuse of you specifically requesting them to come for “your” benefit. Nonetheless, a mediator may enable all of you to unpack some of these issues and their underlying causes. A therapist may also uncover problems that have gone unrecognized for your folks’ entire lives. Many modern conditions (OCD; the entire Autistic spectrum; Borderline Personality, etc.) didn’t “exist” as legitimate diagnoses until very recently. Regardless of whether your folks accept or deny them, identifying underlying diagnoses WILL help YOU regulate and mediate their symptoms going forward.

Your parents may find therapy helpful enough to return for individual or couples counseling. (I would not believe this had it not happened with my own dad—who is about as old-school about therapy as they come!) Even if you can’t convince your folks to get help for your benefit, find a therapist who will help YOU set boundaries, and implement tools and tactics to protect your mental health and wellbeing during difficult interactions with your folks.

Go forward with a forgiving heart and an open mind. I sincerely believe people are capable of change at any age—especially if they are cognitively competent. I wish you all the very best of luck!