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Also imo, if it’s actually just 50k that’s available for the Community Spouse to annuitize, it’s not enough $ to make it worthwhile. 200k is a good SPIA not 50k.
50k is to me more spend-down range by both the CS and the about to apply for LTC NH Medicaid spouse. Like they pay down debt; or get repairs done now on the home where the CS is going to be living at; or get costly dental work done; or turn in both their older cars and use some of the 50k to get 1 better newer more dependable car for the CS; or they both get a pre-need funeral policy; update their legal. No gifting. Whatever the spend down, all $$ is through their banking completely AND BEFORE the About to be in a NH spouse Medicaid application submitted.
To me, Medicaid planning when there’s a CS is not ever a DIY but needs a NAELA or CELA level of attorney as it complicated to start and what happens after death with estate Recovery that the CS will have to deal with very much interdependent on your states laws.
If your feeling pressured by annuity salesman, ask them in writing to provide to you based on a 50k policy - what all their commissions and fees are on the policy from now till payoff AND -what the full surrender charges & fees are at 2 years and 5 years AND - what the annual penalty free maximum take from the principal is and if this has fees and what those fees are AND - that it is Medicaid compliant for your states LTC Medicaid program. Not Medicaid allowed or qualified but compliant. As you plan to submit the letter to both Medicaid & your Dept of Insurance. Bet they never contact you again.
SPIAs to me only work if there is a community spouse AND it’s realistic for the CS to live on their own for a good while AND likely to outlive the in the NH spouse AND those assets to buy the SPIA are significantly beyond the 12Ok liquid allowed for the CS to have as exempt assets so they can buy a 6 figure SPIA. Its income only to the CS, so doesn’t count for Medicaid. It should be done prior to Medicaid application so it’s already moved out of the bank before the “snapshot” date set for Medicaid.
SPIAs are speciality underwriting & as such there are actually just a small group of SPIA underwriters in the US. You have got to make sure that if your a CS that it’s truly a Medicaid compliant SPIA suitable for a CS and not some other type of “annuity” that is Medicaid eligible.
Imo there lots of smoke & mirrors out there on anything annuity. So often for elders, annuities are touted to them as a way around ”guvmit gonna get yur $” and sold to them at those free chicken dinner seminars and sold by salesmen on commission that dovetail the sale to an insurance guy that holds the actual state insurance license. Annuities are insurance products. Anyone with an insurance license can sell them. Your State Farm type of insurance agent can sell them. Most annuities are NOT - again - NOT Medicaid compliant. Often you’re told that they are “eligible” or “qualified” for Medicaid, that’s a bit of a deflection as what that likely means is they are not viewed as gifting with a transfer penalty placed by Medicaid or inappropriate transfer of assets by Medicaid for moving $ into the annuity. But IF they are not actuarial correct for your specific demographic and within whatever limits Medicaid places on annuities (this varies by state & can include commission & fees charged) and have Medicaid as the primary beneficiary then they are NOT compliant for Medicaid. If not Medicaid compliant, then they have to be surrendered in order to get your Medicaid application approved. Surrendering any insurance policy is painfully costly to do. Insurance agent likely doesn’t care as they get their commission no matter what. If I had to guess, the most common problem will be that the annuity has a payout that ends in their 90’s, which is outside of any actuarial table, so not Medicaid compliant.
SPIAs imo do NOT ever work for an individual applying for Medicaid.
A better Financial Advisor (the type with a series 7 and with a wire house) will know which underwriter does SPIAs, if your current elder law atty does not have someone they refer to. Krause is imo a market leader in SPIAs & their website has good info, although getting one is not a DIY but through your FA or NAELA level atty.
I’ve know a couple of younger 2nd & 3rd wives who have gotten SPIAs & it totally rocks as they will likely outlive both their older hubs and the SPIA. And structured the income paid to be low enough not to affect any “at need” program eligibility.
This is definitely one of those "consult with an elder law attorney" situations, particularly before buying the annuity. The agent will promise you the moon, but just realize that they get their commission upfront and may not always have your best interests at heart.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
50k is to me more spend-down range by both the CS and the about to apply for LTC NH Medicaid spouse. Like they pay down debt; or get repairs done now on the home where the CS is going to be living at; or get costly dental work done; or turn in both their older cars and use some of the 50k to get 1 better newer more dependable car for the CS; or they both get a pre-need funeral policy; update their legal. No gifting. Whatever the spend down, all $$ is through their banking completely AND BEFORE the About to be in a NH spouse Medicaid application submitted.
To me, Medicaid planning when there’s a CS is not ever a DIY but needs a NAELA or CELA level of attorney as it complicated to start and what happens after death with estate Recovery that the CS will have to deal with very much interdependent on your states laws.
If your feeling pressured by annuity salesman, ask them in writing to provide to you based on a 50k policy
- what all their commissions and fees are on the policy from now till payoff AND
-what the full surrender charges & fees are at 2 years and 5 years AND
- what the annual penalty free maximum take from the principal is and if this has fees and what those fees are
AND
- that it is Medicaid compliant for your states LTC Medicaid program. Not Medicaid allowed or qualified but compliant.
As you plan to submit the letter to both Medicaid & your Dept of Insurance.
Bet they never contact you again.
SPIAs are speciality underwriting & as such there are actually just a small group of SPIA underwriters in the US. You have got to make sure that if your a CS that it’s truly a Medicaid compliant SPIA suitable for a CS and not some other type of “annuity” that is Medicaid eligible.
Imo there lots of smoke & mirrors out there on anything annuity.
So often for elders, annuities are touted to them as a way around ”guvmit gonna get yur $” and sold to them at those free chicken dinner seminars and sold by salesmen on commission that dovetail the sale to an insurance guy that holds the actual state insurance license. Annuities are insurance products. Anyone with an insurance license can sell them. Your State Farm type of insurance agent can sell them. Most annuities are NOT - again - NOT Medicaid compliant. Often you’re told that they are “eligible” or “qualified” for Medicaid, that’s a bit of a deflection as what that likely means is they are not viewed as gifting with a transfer penalty placed by Medicaid or inappropriate transfer of assets by Medicaid for moving $ into the annuity. But IF they are not actuarial correct for your specific demographic and within whatever limits Medicaid places on annuities (this varies by state & can include commission & fees charged) and have Medicaid as the primary beneficiary then they are NOT compliant for Medicaid. If not Medicaid compliant, then they have to be surrendered in order to get your Medicaid application approved. Surrendering any insurance policy is painfully costly to do. Insurance agent likely doesn’t care as they get their commission no matter what. If I had to guess, the most common problem will be that the annuity has a payout that ends in their 90’s, which is outside of any actuarial table, so not Medicaid compliant.
SPIAs imo do NOT ever work for an individual applying for Medicaid.
A better Financial Advisor (the type with a series 7 and with a wire house) will know which underwriter does SPIAs, if your current elder law atty does not have someone they refer to. Krause is imo a market leader in SPIAs & their website has good info, although getting one is not a DIY but through your FA or NAELA level atty.
I’ve know a couple of younger 2nd & 3rd wives who have gotten SPIAs & it totally rocks as they will likely outlive both their older hubs and the SPIA. And structured the income paid to be low enough not to affect any “at need” program eligibility.