At 91, mom could live another 5 - 10 years. She's already beat the actuarial tables for womens lifespan in the US.....so does mom have mid-6 figures ($400,000.00 - $ 600,000.00) from the sale of her home to set aside APART to pay for a facility from whatever she gifts to family?? Did mom sell her home for 700K -1M?? If so, divvy the $$$ up & set aside the rest for current & future care costs.
I'd bet the house is not higher value. Elderly tend to have a home around 230k in value or under 75k with decades of delayed maintenance. Realistically there is no gifting $$ to be done...ever....they will need every penny for LTC costs.
Whomever is moms DPOA & MPOA really need to have a clear idea of moms financials; a realistic take on moms health & care needs; and know private pay costs of care for IL, AL & NH for your city. Then evaluate IF mom has funds to pay for maybe 2 years of AL and 3 years of NH level care. It is not unusual for a NH to run 12k -15k a month. The costs of LTC care are horrendous. Mom may be fine, competent & cognitive today & move into IL at 2K a mo., but that could change in a fall or TIA overnight to needing skilled nursing services in a NH at 12K a mo. Genworth does a most excellent annual cost of care report that details all this...btw Alaska comes in a 250k annual NH costs.
If mom should gift house $ and then in 3 years when shes 94, mom needs a NH and has run through whatever $ she didn't gift.....how is she going to pay?? She will be ineligible for medicaid as that gifting triggers a transfer penalty based on a lookback that starts the day she applies for Medicaid. Transfer of real property is recorded on the local level by the tax assessor & dovetails to the states database. Caseworker will know there should still be oodles of assets as value of house is there to base this on. Moms prior ownership of real property is in the system & can be a few keystrokes from being found out by the caseworker.
Just who is going to private pay for moms care? Medicaid won't till penalty period is past. Will everybody gifted $$ pay mom back years later? LOL. Can whomever is DPOA private pay for mom till the penalty period is over? The facility will get the resident ineligibility letter from medicaid & will fully expect to be paid one way or another. Either you private pay or sign off on a contract to be personally & legally responsible pay to NH or decide what room mom moves into in your house. Realize that, as Medicaid takes time to process, mom is creating a bill each day. (my moms Medcaid application took almost 6 mos to process). Mom will owe the facility all those days no matter what. The NH will come to you or whomever in the family to pay the outstanding balance. If you live in a filial responsibility state, they stand a good chance of getting a judgement against you for the amount.
Please, please take pen to paper & in detail go over financials before gifting.
ooh, boy, this is exactly the situation my dil's grandmother is in; she went to a nursing home, ostensibly for rehab but not working, was deemed needing to stay in there long-term - somebody? her, the caseworker? applied for Medicaid for her, triggering, like you said, the lookback, not that she had a house or anything, but just out of her check, with, apparently, few expenses, since she was living in public housing before, she'd apparently accumulated some funds, not even 5 figures, but more than Medicaid allows, plus while she was in there and Medicare paying for rehab, 2 or her daughters were coming, 1 of whom she'd given her checkbook to to pay her bills for her place - which now that she's been in there long enough, she's lost - while she was in there, and having her write them checks with them filling in the amount to the tune of some low 1000s of dollars - so with the nursing home getting the resident ineligibility letter they have had the 2 daughters arrested for exploitation of the mother - they can have no contact with her nor she with them, although, as I understand, she doesn't really understand what's happened and continues to call at work the one who's working and had the actual checkbook but she can't talk to her or tell her anything about what's going on; she just knows they're not coming to see her anymore - they go to court next week. The nursing home has asked her if she knew what was going on, as in, yes, she told them, she knew she was making out and signing the checks to them, that she knew she was giving them money. Seems like she didn't realize about the Medicaid issue? not really sure, but Medicaid has not charged her with fraud. Is it possible there are still people who don't know this stuff?
Debd-about grannies situation, I'd bet that since she's was on subsidized housing she was vetted to be low income. Once they qualify, this type of renewal seems to have minimal oversight. They look to see what their income is based on rhier SS awards letter & if its still low then their recertified. So if grannies bank account built up to have a few thousands, it was never an issue as it wasn't really checked.
But to qualify for LTC NH medicaid, it's a different application which requires a look back on financials as the "at need" for medical & financial have a defined criteria.
For grannie, the NH is being over zealous but they are doing this to get NH medicaid application approved & they can get paid. By having a police report or APS fraud investigation, it allows the NH transfer penalty to get set aside during the fraud investigation, so Medicaid is paying. Right now there are potential transfer penalty issues as I'd bet family wrote checks from grannies checkbook to reimburse for stuff for mom that they paid for. On the face of it, it all looks like gifting as its checks made out to an individual. The daughters are going to need to do whatever to establish a plausible spend down of those funds to avoid having legal issues. Stuff like this can morph into long term issues like they can't be executor of an elders estate, or named representative payee, or be a guardian. The daughters need to actively do whatever to get the inquiry closed with a finding of no fault, no harm.
For my MIL (most difficult), she was in a NH in New Orkeans when Hurricane Katrina hit. Her NH moved en masse to Houston, where she went into a NH. She was on Medicaid & had no home/car & low SS check. All good for low income, no assets. Now for the old La NH, lots of the residents - like MIL - were totally good on their ADLs. LA "at need" medical standards to get into a NH were a lot more relaxed than TX standards. Long story short, MIL was able to get into senior subsidized apt instead of being in a NH in TX. MIL was eligible for a state paid caregiver to help with living. She was legally blind, & had volunteers from a help the blind group as well. Both volunteer folks & caregiver did MILs shopping often without MIL. MIL would write checks to them from $ 80 - 300 to buy liquor, cosmetics, etc. You can see the train wreck coming....can't you?!? Flash forward 5 years and now MIL is needing NH level of care & has to do NH Medicaid application. All these checks are gifting issues & an whole hot mess of an issue as well for the paid by the state aide who cashed checks. It worked out as some of the receipts had her name on them as she would do a phone order & MIL was able to verify that checks were written by her without any undue influence to others to buy personal items requested by her (MIL). But it took over a year to get her approved for NH medicaid as there was foot dragging by the NH to satisfy thier admissions dept to take her as "Medicaid pending" & forward the application and supporting documents to the state & then months to deal with state inquiries & appeal. Mil die before she was approved. BIL & SIL just flat dogged getting her approved. It was not simple to get done.
Your DILs family is going to need to establish a reasonable case that funds were used at grannies request & for grannies needs to get the exploitation of elder to get quashed imho. Really they don't want a report like this lurking with their name on it.
igloo, I appreciate where you're coming from but, unfortunately, in this situation, for the most part, that's not the case - 1, maybe 2, checks, made out to the one who actually had the checkbook were to replace a previous made to a payday loan (subject of another thread on here) place that grannie had indeed done but that's the minor part of this - all of the rest of the thousands were not used for grannie, as in, on top of this, because of all that, her cell phone has been shut off; just, fortunately, maybe, in that sense, this nursing home has phones in their rooms. So don't believe at least one of them will be able to get the charge quashed; I hope the other, the one who's working, has a good job, will be able to; I'd really hate to see her have a report like that with her name on it, not sure what the ramifications/repercussions would be. to seque into another situation I somewhat brought up on the other thread, been working with hub's aunt and uncle who I just got a call from the state regarding their being able to get a paid by them caregiver, if they were already having one 20 hrs./wk., which they weren't at the time, but now possibly are or at least could be, if they'll be allowed to, if they even have to be. They asked who was doing their shopping, which seems to be a question; I didn't think to tell them when they called they're having most of their meals delivered now, so there may not really be that much shopping anymore, so...they were saying that counts as caregiving. I've been dealing with this for almost 5 yrs. now, maybe just 4, at least in the sense of trying to get them the caregiver help, or at least at the time aunt was mainly just wanting help for her to help take care of uncle, but she looked like, at least for a while, that she was going to need help herself, but she does seem to have gotten better, but he's gotten worse. But as had to get into their financial affairs, turned out they were, in one sense, better than she was presenting, though should have known by the checks and money that was going out; at least the aide they did get hasn't been doing anything like that and glad never had dad's either; the agencies never mention this part of it. So you mean the receipts had mil's name? I thought you meant at first they had the aide's name; not sure exactly how aunt's done this; know she's done some things by phone, not sure exactly how things have gone, know the state has supposedly called her directly as well, just not sure how it's exactly gone when they have, why not too sure how they came to call me; they also asked who takes them to the doctors. But then not sure how this came to be with the monies being expended out of their funds but somewhere along the way there was also their credit card being used, which, by the time, I was able to get the actual documentation they wanted, which they'd kept saying they weren't even getting anymore, until they started bringing it out, I saw where they were making the payments on it and besides, not just the minimum either. So now that they could possibly have the 20 hr./wk. aide, there's all those issues with them being paid by the state when they're basically paying - well, not quite that much, but still... - that on this credit card. but back to grannie - thank you, I somewhat rather expected, or at least hope, that behind the nh doing all this was to keep Medicaid paying or at least with the hope they would pay - know the panic was that they would kick her out, but knew that at least it hadn't happened yet. But, like said, no reimbursement involved; they weren't buying anything for mom, or certainly nothing like to the tune of the amounts involved - what would cost that much, anyway? And, actually, grannie says it's just gifting, that she was just giving the money to them - why? since she was in there, she didn't need it anyway. So don't see any way for plausible spend down. Don't think there'll be much need for executor of estate - looks like they've gotten it all now - no home or car, am a little surprised at what seems to be the amount of SS she was getting, had thought she was just getting SSI, not sure how, that she seems to be getting more, maybe something about her husband, who's passed away and apparently she didn't have representative payee, although somebody, I think, or maybe it was just something they wanted to do on their own, wanted the yet other daughter who had gotten guardianship of that husband, their dad, to get it of her, which, possibly she could, although, not sure, she was only allowed to keep it for their dad if she allowed him to stay in the nh when she was going to bring him back to her house - why? so she could get his check I think they all thought that since, I think, she was on Medicaid before none of this would be an issue; they didn't realize the whole LTC NH Medicaid was different, even though thought went through this with their dad, so thinking something must have been different. But, yes, re the other part, assume they were both vetted to be low income, at least to an extent, they were both in, at least to begin with, subsidized housing, although at some point, they started being required to pay rent which would be comparable to that on the open market because of their income; think it had something to do with their disabled daughter they had living with them passing away but then when husband went in nh, of course that cut out his income, which not really sure at the time if she had any then, not sure how all that community spouse stuff works when you don't have your own home and you're in subsidized housing, know she ended up moving in with her mother, who was also in it as well, at least in the elderly type, which then led to issues, since she wasn't, so think had to move out, but think by then she'd been able to get her disability and own income, just not sure how seemed to get what she apparently was getting, so not sure how low income she was vetted to be, or when. Maybe that minimal oversight is what's caused this; seems like maybe she got her own subsidized place based on not having this income but then if it's based of SS award letter, just not sure, maybe it all had something to do, like I said, with his passing. But definitely seems as if bank account wasn't checked based on what's happening now.
I'd bet the house is not higher value. Elderly tend to have a home around 230k in value or under 75k with decades of delayed maintenance. Realistically there is no gifting $$ to be done...ever....they will need every penny for LTC costs.
Whomever is moms DPOA & MPOA really need to have a clear idea of moms financials; a realistic take on moms health & care needs; and know private pay costs of care for IL, AL & NH for your city. Then evaluate IF mom has funds to pay for maybe 2 years of AL and 3 years of NH level care. It is not unusual for a NH to run 12k -15k a month. The costs of LTC care are horrendous. Mom may be fine, competent & cognitive today & move into IL at 2K a mo., but that could change in a fall or TIA overnight to needing skilled nursing services in a NH at 12K a mo. Genworth does a most excellent annual cost of care report that details all this...btw Alaska comes in a 250k annual NH costs.
If mom should gift house $ and then in 3 years when shes 94, mom needs a NH and has run through whatever $ she didn't gift.....how is she going to pay?? She will be ineligible for medicaid as that gifting triggers a transfer penalty based on a lookback that starts the day she applies for Medicaid. Transfer of real property is recorded on the local level by the tax assessor & dovetails to the states database. Caseworker will know there should still be oodles of assets as value of house is there to base this on. Moms prior ownership of real property is in the system & can be a few keystrokes from being found out by the caseworker.
Just who is going to private pay for moms care? Medicaid won't till penalty period is past. Will everybody gifted $$ pay mom back years later? LOL. Can whomever is DPOA private pay for mom till the penalty period is over? The facility will get the resident ineligibility letter from medicaid & will fully expect to be paid one way or another. Either you private pay or sign off on a contract to be personally & legally responsible pay to NH or decide what room mom moves into in your house. Realize that, as Medicaid takes time to process, mom is creating a bill each day. (my moms Medcaid application took almost 6 mos to process). Mom will owe the facility all those days no matter what. The NH will come to you or whomever in the family to pay the outstanding balance. If you live in a filial responsibility state, they stand a good chance of getting a judgement against you for the amount.
Please, please take pen to paper & in detail go over financials before gifting.
But to qualify for LTC NH medicaid, it's a different application which requires a look back on financials as the "at need" for medical & financial have a defined criteria.
For grannie, the NH is being over zealous but they are doing this to get NH medicaid application approved & they can get paid. By having a police report or APS fraud investigation, it allows the NH transfer penalty to get set aside during the fraud investigation, so Medicaid is paying. Right now there are potential transfer penalty issues as I'd bet family wrote checks from grannies checkbook to reimburse for stuff for mom that they paid for. On the face of it, it all looks like gifting as its checks made out to an individual. The daughters are going to need to do whatever to establish a plausible spend down of those funds to avoid having legal issues. Stuff like this can morph into long term issues like they can't be executor of an elders estate, or named representative payee, or be a guardian. The daughters need to actively do whatever to get the inquiry closed with a finding of no fault, no harm.
For my MIL (most difficult), she was in a NH in New Orkeans when Hurricane Katrina hit. Her NH moved en masse to Houston, where she went into a NH. She was on Medicaid & had no home/car & low SS check. All good for low income, no assets. Now for the old La NH, lots of the residents - like MIL - were totally good on their ADLs. LA "at need" medical standards to get into a NH were a lot more relaxed than TX standards. Long story short, MIL was able to get into senior subsidized apt instead of being in a NH in TX. MIL was eligible for a state paid caregiver to help with living. She was legally blind, & had volunteers from a help the blind group as well. Both volunteer folks & caregiver did MILs shopping often without MIL. MIL would write checks to them from $ 80 - 300 to buy liquor, cosmetics, etc. You can see the train wreck coming....can't you?!? Flash forward 5 years and now MIL is needing NH level of care & has to do NH Medicaid application. All these checks are gifting issues & an whole hot mess of an issue as well for the paid by the state aide who cashed checks. It worked out as some of the receipts had her name on them as she would do a phone order & MIL was able to verify that checks were written by her without any undue influence to others to buy personal items requested by her (MIL). But it took over a year to get her approved for NH medicaid as there was foot dragging by the NH to satisfy thier admissions dept to take her as "Medicaid pending" & forward the application and supporting documents to the state & then months to deal with state inquiries & appeal. Mil die before she was approved. BIL & SIL just flat dogged getting her approved. It was not simple to get done.
Your DILs family is going to need to establish a reasonable case that funds were used at grannies request & for grannies needs to get the exploitation of elder to get quashed imho. Really they don't want a report like this lurking with their name on it.
to seque into another situation I somewhat brought up on the other thread, been working with hub's aunt and uncle who I just got a call from the state regarding their being able to get a paid by them caregiver, if they were already having one 20 hrs./wk., which they weren't at the time, but now possibly are or at least could be, if they'll be allowed to, if they even have to be. They asked who was doing their shopping, which seems to be a question; I didn't think to tell them when they called they're having most of their meals delivered now, so there may not really be that much shopping anymore, so...they were saying that counts as caregiving. I've been dealing with this for almost 5 yrs. now, maybe just 4, at least in the sense of trying to get them the caregiver help, or at least at the time aunt was mainly just wanting help for her to help take care of uncle, but she looked like, at least for a while, that she was going to need help herself, but she does seem to have gotten better, but he's gotten worse. But as had to get into their financial affairs, turned out they were, in one sense, better than she was presenting, though should have known by the checks and money that was going out; at least the aide they did get hasn't been doing anything like that and glad never had dad's either; the agencies never mention this part of it. So you mean the receipts had mil's name? I thought you meant at first they had the aide's name; not sure exactly how aunt's done this; know she's done some things by phone, not sure exactly how things have gone, know the state has supposedly called her directly as well, just not sure how it's exactly gone when they have, why not too sure how they came to call me; they also asked who takes them to the doctors. But then not sure how this came to be with the monies being expended out of their funds but somewhere along the way there was also their credit card being used, which, by the time, I was able to get the actual documentation they wanted, which they'd kept saying they weren't even getting anymore, until they started bringing it out, I saw where they were making the payments on it and besides, not just the minimum either. So now that they could possibly have the 20 hr./wk. aide, there's all those issues with them being paid by the state when they're basically paying - well, not quite that much, but still... - that on this credit card.
but back to grannie - thank you, I somewhat rather expected, or at least hope, that behind the nh doing all this was to keep Medicaid paying or at least with the hope they would pay - know the panic was that they would kick her out, but knew that at least it hadn't happened yet. But, like said, no reimbursement involved; they weren't buying anything for mom, or certainly nothing like to the tune of the amounts involved - what would cost that much, anyway? And, actually, grannie says it's just gifting, that she was just giving the money to them - why? since she was in there, she didn't need it anyway. So don't see any way for plausible spend down. Don't think there'll be much need for executor of estate - looks like they've gotten it all now - no home or car, am a little surprised at what seems to be the amount of SS she was getting, had thought she was just getting SSI, not sure how, that she seems to be getting more, maybe something about her husband, who's passed away and apparently she didn't have representative payee, although somebody, I think, or maybe it was just something they wanted to do on their own, wanted the yet other daughter who had gotten guardianship of that husband, their dad, to get it of her, which, possibly she could, although, not sure, she was only allowed to keep it for their dad if she allowed him to stay in the nh when she was going to bring him back to her house - why? so she could get his check
I think they all thought that since, I think, she was on Medicaid before none of this would be an issue; they didn't realize the whole LTC NH Medicaid was different, even though thought went through this with their dad, so thinking something must have been different.
But, yes, re the other part, assume they were both vetted to be low income, at least to an extent, they were both in, at least to begin with, subsidized housing, although at some point, they started being required to pay rent which would be comparable to that on the open market because of their income; think it had something to do with their disabled daughter they had living with them passing away but then when husband went in nh, of course that cut out his income, which not really sure at the time if she had any then, not sure how all that community spouse stuff works when you don't have your own home and you're in subsidized housing, know she ended up moving in with her mother, who was also in it as well, at least in the elderly type, which then led to issues, since she wasn't, so think had to move out, but think by then she'd been able to get her disability and own income, just not sure how seemed to get what she apparently was getting, so not sure how low income she was vetted to be, or when. Maybe that minimal oversight is what's caused this; seems like maybe she got her own subsidized place based on not having this income but then if it's based of SS award letter, just not sure, maybe it all had something to do, like I said, with his passing. But definitely seems as if bank account wasn't checked based on what's happening now.