Why won't my sister help more with our dying mother?

***If it don't Apply, let it Fly***

Why must people attack someone with a different option?
What makes a person feel everyone's response must mirror thiers? It's like some members feel each response must pass with their own personal approval.

Doesn't the chastiser realize they look like an egocentric control freak?

Yes, they will get 👍likes by their little fan club, those like-minded ones, but I wonder....is that their motive, is that what their needing and actually looking for? A pat on the back maybe?

Isn't it obvious this is actually discouraging people from offering help? Maybe someone's advice is just what might help the OP who's reaching out?

Any one experience does not answer every posters problem. Things might not go for them the way it went for you. If you don't like what someone says, pass it up.

This is an open forum, let it be just that. No one person has the right to approve or disprove each answer.

If you want that power and control, start a caregiving blog.

Perhaps, she should contribute money instead of time. Not everyone has the same skills. Some do better doing phoning, others hands on caregiving, and others disappear and need to contribute money. No matter what, I have observed that no matter how many supportive family exist, there is usually one person who ends up doing more of the actual work.

I come here to see others’ experiences, solutions, grievances. More and more I see answers that show no compassion or caring. They accuse the asker of wanting attention or trying to better their situation....hey I’m caring for two people and if I can find some answers, support or a better way to manage my load I’m very grateful. I truly wish there was a block or ignore button for those few on here that hop on every post with their negativity and criticism.

Heather10

--"Anyone who is continually looking for a pat on the back for being a caregiver, most likely should not be a caregiver."

Where do you get this impression? Many of us, as has been stated clearly in other posts, have stepped into care giving in a crises. Which turned into a series of crises, and then into a permanent situation.

--"Yes. Selfish people who lack empathy do exist.
--Yes, they are very common and often wear the mask of the selfless caregiver"

Wth??!! Are you for real? We're on this forum precisely because we are too empathetic and feel we cannot leave our parents alone in a crises. We had no idea what waited on the other side. We have been thrust into this role by doctors, by sudden illness, etc that required immediate action.

--"I have seen that in my work, too. A seemingly selfless caregiver who is profoundly abusing their --charge, when no one is around. Sadly this is also difficult to detect and prove.
--If a person's only reason for being a good caregiver is for hoping for a heavenly reward they may --be surprised when they get there."

Right-o Heather10, we're not caregiving for our parents and wanting to be free of drama of those who meddle but offer almost no help, nor overwhelmed by unanticipated logistics of care, we actually wish heavenly rewards OR we're abusing our parents!!!

Ok, let me pause here to stop laughing. Ok, right. Atheist here, only child here, who has helped because there is no one else. And the only other offers of record have either ripped him off or put him into harm's way. Outside help derived from non familial people is incredibly difficult to rely on. As for the abuse....you're right often there is.  From parent to adult child. Or from sibs towards care givers. Have you actually read any of the posts???

B*tching and moaning about the rigors of care, or the added burden of people, either clueless or with malice, who create conflict, but don't spend any actual time helping,
does not mean anything other than exhaustion and frustration.

But clearly, based on your experience, you see things differently. May I suggest
a future career as a fantasy novelist? I think you display considerable aptitude!

People come to this forum because they want to know there are others going through the same things as they are. There is comfort in knowing we are not alone. The underlying reason we care for a parent shouldn't matter to anyone but ourselves.

I take care of my mom because I want to. She took care of me for many years, so why can't I do the same for her? Was I abused? No. Did Mom ever tell me she loved me? No. Have I told her that I love her? Many times. Though I joke about there being a halo somewhere for me, I do not expect anything in return for what I am doing. I like to think I am doing it because I am a good person. 

Does caregiving have it's challenges? YES! But, as long as I can handle what I am doing, I am okay with it. Some days are better than others. It helps to be able to vent on the bad days. Sometimes I would like a break because it is like working a full-time job without paid leave. But, to get a real "break" requires funds to pay someone to help out when siblings can't/won't. And, that comes with it's own challenges because of Mom adjusting to someone new. (That doesn't usually go well...) I am not always a patient person, but I am getting better (Mom is not always a good patient...Nurses never are....). Maybe learning to be more patient is the lesson for me.

I just hit the Thank button on Heather 10's last post by mistake and had to set the record straight. I do NOT thank Heather 10 for her lengthy posts that go on and on and ON but have very little to say to those of us who are living with the real challenges of caregiving and are trying to do our best in incredibly difficult circumstances. And no, I was not abused, nor am I hoping for some heavenly (or even worldly) reward.

"You might consider that people only see a limited dynamic on this forum "

Heather.. you may want to follow some of your own advice.

Honestly.. you have no idea the h*ll some of us have been through. My parents are both in a memory care facility now but I still carry the sole responsibility for them... and probably will until they pass away.

Caregiving crept up on me slowly.. I never planned for both parents to have dementia, for both parents to be hospitalized.. at the same time.. for all my relatives to turn away. I am continuing because I love my parents and I do not have it in me to abandon them. I do not love the crushing responsibility of it. I do not love the loneliness of it. l do not love the exhaustion of it. I do not love the sadness of it.

This is the ONLY place I can go to air my feelings.. to communicate with others who have walked similar roads. Not all of us fit a mold as you seem to think.

I know I should just skip over your posts and not give them any thought.. .. I'm working on it.

Some caregivers push others away
If you criticize attempts of others who try to help
Redo something another has done
Consider your actions
You may be teaching that person
They cant win
I know in my family one of the caregivers constantly complains and compares others efforts
No one can do anything right
Bringing food? He will tell you " it caused incontinence-just when she was getting better"
Bring pjs-"those are so nice but she tripped on them' he will find fault in anything certain people do and complain they don't do enough-he pushes people away

Anyone who is continually looking for a pat on the back for being a caregiver, most likely should not be a caregiver.

Yes. Selfish people who lack empathy do exist.

Yes, they are very common and often wear the mask of the selfless caregiver

All the while they bubble with resentment. They also lack empathy for other siblings because others do not feel as they do. Yet, they refuse to stop and investigate the why of it

I have seen that in my work, too.  A seemingly selfless caregiver who is profoundly abusing their charge, when no one is around.   Sadly this is also difficult to detect and prove.

If a person's only reason for being a good caregiver is for hoping for a heavenly reward they may be surprised when they get there.

Intent is everything in religious doctrines. If the intent is hoping for a reward, than it is not selfless, it is selfish. But it takes profound insight to see that about one's self proclaimed selflessness.

Caregiving should only be done out of love, or professionalism, not obligation or fear of punishment in another life. Or, worse, hope for an extra reward!

Covert abuse is very difficult to detect but it is very common.  It takes many forms other than physical abuse.....control, withholding, isolating, etc.

Experts now realize that psychological emotional abuse is far worse than physical abuse because it is so often difficult to detect. With emotional abuse too often no one sees the abuse, they only see the result of it. Therefore it is all to easy to discount.

If an adult child has been abused by a parent all their life, it is best that they have the insight to know that they can not take care of the parent without feeling much anger.

For an adult child to take care of an abusive parent, is simply a recipe for disaster.  The courts are also filled with such cases, if one bothers to review them.

It is better that an adult child that has experienced parental abuse turn care over to a court appointed guardian, who can be more objective.

There are people who should be caregivers, but those seeking reward, are not the best caregivers.

Here is an article that describes the effects of psychological abuse. It applies to children, adult, children and the elderly.

canada.ca/en/public-health/services/health-promotion/stop-family-violence/prevention-resource-centre/family-violence/psychological-abuse-discussion-paper.html

@Heather10, and what do you say to those of us who were abused and help
our parents in one crisis which turns into years of crises, and we help out of a sense of duty, because they have no one else? Is this wrong? Many do so without any hope
of inheritance, even paying for parent's care out of pocket.

What of adult children who have loving parents, but who focus only on taking their
money and not providing care for their parent? Do you think these people do not exist?

Divorce, parental alienation, innate selfishness or lack of empathy, and just plain ole
greed are just a few of the reasons I've seen for adult children abandon a good
enough parent.

Consider that as a child abuse and neglect attorney you may have also experienced
a limited dynamic as well.

"I don't think God would greet anyone at the Pearly gates with a well done, you missed your Mom's funeral, but at least you put in some overtime at work."

Right, don't think so, but seems like a lot of people think there is a prize at the end.
Those of us who aren't on career track, inadvertently enable these "superior" folks
to achieve. I can't tell you how many years of hours I've put helping out super busy
"friends" and "family" with work crises (even helping them complete projects!!) and
with home repair, meals, child care, transportation, other logistics. "Just this once"
turns into days, weeks, and then *poof* they're gone. No reciprocation, or what
is in a way worse, token reciprocation. But they all have time for drinks, dinners, weekend getaways, affairs, vacations, and other fun on their downtime. Mmmmmm.

Care givers just get screwed over by those who are totally self focused and without empathy, the whole "career" thing is usually an excuse. I've met people far busier
and more successful who manage to find time to visit ailing parents and reciprocate
with their friends or family (even if it's not a gift of time but a gift basket) And the kicker is that these "too busy" types seem to genuinely think they're doing you a favor to let you bail them out, because hey, they're successful. I'm sorry, but that is just the hallmark of an user.

I'm embarrassed to say how long I stayed on that merry go round, waiting for some
reciprocation, or even just a break from the drama. When I politely and firmly started
saying no, I'm sorry I don't have the time, or stopped reacting to their stories of drama, most just disappeared.

They behave the same way with their own parents, it doesn't seem to matter unless
there is money. Then there is a token show of filial love. While I don't hate them, I don't want people like this in my life.

Forgiving and forgetting abuse has just left me in harm's way for more. even if they were only in my life on a superficial level. Although most go away when the free service stops, some will stay in contact and use their friendship with you to siphon off resources from your contacts, who assume you are vouching for them. So no, I don't regret either cutting contact or in case of a few close family members, very distant contact only , arm's length and never divulging personal info.

When I'm around normal supportive families, the difference is night and day. I'll admit
I'm so jealous of that, it's hard for me to hear how families pull together and live
almost drama free and without unnecessary conflict. What an amazing amazing thing
to have. Those of you who've even had one parent like this, realize how precious it
is. It would be a totally different experience taking care of a parent like this. Although
I would say still, never let your life be lost in care. A good parent, even one lost to disease or dementia and cannot articulate this, would never never want this to happen.
Never.

[ Debbie wrote:

Heather 10, your experience must be quite limited.

To say that a sibling not shouldering their share of a parent's care "does not happen if the parent was kind and loving or if there is not a controlling sibling in the mix" is an inaccurate generalization. ]

--------

Debbye:

Actually, I am a family counselor and a child abuse & neglect attorney, as well as a writer.

You might consider that people only see a limited dynamic on this forum

There seems to be a certain type of, almost stereotypical, caregiver that posts here.

If a person resents being a caregiver, they should not do it.  It is a tough job and should be done out of love only.  Not for money, not for kudos.

If there is any other reason for caregiving, the elder person is at risk of being abused by a resentful caregiver.   Definitely not a good thing.

Debbye:

Have you ever delved into the reasons why these "brothers" you speak of do not want to be bothered with the parents care?  There is a reason.  Have you inquired about it?  Does it matter to you to hear the other person explain why, or do you have all the answers for them?

BTW, it's not most often a brother that refuses to help, where mothers are involved. It is more often an estranged daughter that the mother has abused and been competitive with.  If you bother to check the stats.

Do you really think you know what goes on between a mother and each of their children. Emotional abuse if very difficult to detect, particularly ambient emotional abuse.  Look up ambient abuse.  It takes extensive training to recognize ambient emotional abuse.

I think anyone who thinks they do know what goes on with a parent and child in private truly has limited experience and his quite naive.

Yes, I agree that Golden children are often selfish, but in my experience, they are selfish toward their other siblings while being slavishly attentive to the mother or father as a way to continue to curry favor.

Sometimes they dodge responsibility of an elder parent. More typically however they want control so they can selfishly take over the parents finances and derail their siblings inheritances.

It is not normal for a child to abandon a loving mother. It is quite normal for an adult child to abandon an abusive mother.  Would expect a woman to stay and care for an abusive husband?   Why would an adult abused child be expected to care for their abuser.

Emotional abuse is often covert and hidden from other family members so the parent can retain their good guy image or perfect family image.

I think if you want the truth about parental abuse, before you draw a conclusion, simply go search the records of a family court. Or, interview a handful of trained family counselors. 

@Bettina yeah you are being harsh! I fly for a living so I CANT help take care of my mom. Was she a good mother to me? If you call physical mental and emotional abuse a good mother? Yeah...if I had a nickel for every wooden spoon she broke on my face, I’d be a millionaire...I’m past all that bs...therapy saved my life and just because I refuse to give up my precious few days off a month to care for mother; doesn’t mean I love her any less. My sister bit off more than she can chew; now I’m “expected” to help? Sorry not going to happen 🙅

Heather 10, your experience must be quite limited. To say that a sibling not shouldering their share of a parent's care "does not happen if the parent was kind and loving or if there is not a controlling sibling in the mix" is an inaccurate generalization. I have known many people who had a sibling, usually a brother, who couldn't be bothered to help with the care of the aging parents. Everyone received the same level of love and care as children. If one sibling was singled out as the "golden child," it was the one who turned out to be selfish and entitled and dodged any responsibility to help with the parent's care. If you've read any of the posts in this forum, you will see this dynamic over and over.

My mother is in the late stages of Parkinson's after 25 years of fighting it. There are six of us, five sisters nearby and one brother a six hour drive away. Sis #6 moved in with mom when she started needing 24 hour care. She also works full time. The rest of us work 12 hour shifts a couple if days a week taking care of mom so #6 can work, go grocery shopping and run errands after work. And Brother comes down two weeks a year and completely takes over while he's here. Except Sis #3, who also happens to be the only one who doesn't have a job. She always made excuses, she has a meeting, she had an appointment, or something came up. She still manages to go to her painting classes, pottery classes, gardening classes, and month long trips to Hawaii or Europe or Brazil. The rest of us are lucky if we get a day to ourselves on the other hand. And we just accept #3 will eventually reap what she sows. Her kids, in their mid 20s, see what's going on. And when she will need help later, they're going to remember that it's easier to let someone else take care of aging parents.
Think like Elsa in Frozen, let it go. Let Karma take care of your sister.

"chorus of critics and busybodies telling you how to do the work," And I'd add --and with their hands out for $$

I've seen this a number of times and it's not even with abusive parents that I've
witnessed this. Seems in some families one or more sibs get used to getting
their way and making themselves scare when there's work to be done. But when
there's a whiff in the air that there might be a pay day, then suddenly they lay on
the attention. Sometimes they just brazenly wait for parent to die and then show
up, guns blazing, wondering where their share of the pie is. :( :(

I really think that parent's money should be spent on their care. Those providing care at home should document what they do and reimburse themselves accordingly. Spend down the assets for care. It's literally insane to destroy your life while the other sibs enjoy theirs, maintain their families and careers and then go on to enjoy their full inheritance to boot. All because one sib was overly generous and sacrificed their lives,
careers, families, retirements instead of making up a plan that was fair to everyone
involved.

We are care givers, not martyrs. We have to remember that.

My mother equally abused both my sister and I (emotionally). If she had a favorite it was my sister because they are so alike. Selfish, self-centered, competitive. My sister, though not helping at all, still has dibs on the family ring that’s supposed to go to the eldest daughter (me...long story) and every piece of crap gift she ever gave our mother. Now my mother can see how my sister is, but does not recognize these traits in herself. I’ll care for her till I can’t because that’s who I am and when she’s gone I’ll be happy I did it. I will also have no further need to tolerate my sister and can live the rest of my life in peace.

Glow:

Perhaps this was already addressed. So I apologize if I am repeating advice you already heard.

Still, it is important to consider what type of mother your mother was to her other children. Also what type of sibling are you in the relationship.

Very often a parent treats ONE child well, while covertly abusing the others. Very often one adult child becomes very autocratic regarding caregiver decisions.

An abused adult child has no obligation to take care of an abusive parent, in the end.

There are many religious texts that actually state this very clearly.

If you were the Golden child and always treated well, then of course you should take care of your mother. And of course you will want to.

The others that were abused should not be expected to do the same.

You as the Golden child might not even be aware of the abuse inflicted upon your siblings.

Also sometimes one child is very controlling about the decisions regarding the parent an the other siblings simply give up rather than argue with an over controlling sibling.

Have you ever asked your siblings how they were treated by your mother as they grew up?

Why not try it. It might be an eye opener for you.

Maybe your mother was abusive to them, maybe you are being too controlling.

There is usually a reason why an adult child would not want to care for a parent, in my experience.

It does not happen if the parent was kind and loving or if there is not a controlling sibling in the mix.

Search your soul and maybe you will answer your own question.

At the very least you will perhaps find out why they refuse to help with her care.

From a psychological perspective, there is always a reason. Find the reason.

Well, atleast you don’t have a chorus of critics and busybodies telling you how to do the work, but not offering to give you a hand. There is some peace in that.

If all your sister can handle is one day a week, atleast you have that. I know you are probably feeling overwhelmed and need more help. You do what you think is best and seek help where it can be found. Sell assets belonging to your mother, if necessary, to help ensure her proper care. She owes no “legacy” or inheritance to anyone. You deserve to have as much help as you can afford/need if the resources are there.

THAT IS SO TRUE Mapotter! I'm t POA & my lousy brother's who didn't give their Mother the time of day, especially during her declining years, are sure nice to me now that their Mother's house is for sale😖 UGH!

I listen to all these issues we, the caregivers, have with our siblings not willing to help. It is really comforting to know that I/we are not alone in our pain. But, aren't these siblings the first ones to have their hands out when it is time to settle the estate (if there is anything left)? A friend of mine is going through that now. Her two brothers want their share when she did all the work, one brother in particular never visited.

Ycatsms, your plan sounds angry and extreme and I say go for it! After 7 years of being your mother's sole caregiver, you've earned the right to be angry with your brother and to do whatever you d*mn well please. People cave in to what they think they should do, or what they think is acceptable, even when it's hurtful to them. I read something in a book for caregivers that said not to "should all over yourself." Even if you cool off and decide not to go the whole way with your plan, don't let them push you around. Do what's right for YOU.

I am sorry for us all. I could also go into more as my brother is the only son and could do no wrong in my Mom's eyes. She was good to us all, but there seems to be something about a son and his mother until she is old.
At least we know we are not alone on this journey. Hugs to all, may God give us peace and comfort.

Tycatsms, it is so hard. There is so much pain that we go through -- Not just taking care of our loved one, but dealing with the family dynamics. I told my middle brother tonight that after Mom dies, he and I may be the only on speaking to each other...

This may sound awful, but I am almost glad that my father died when he was 58 (37 years ago...). At least I know that I don't have to go through this again with another parent. If I have to take care of my husband at some point, at least I won't have siblings to deal with....

My family didn't even want to be bothered posting an obituary and if I hadn't nagged and nagged and basically lassooed them, we wouldn't have had a service for my Mom either.

I might understand if my Mom had been some kind of wicked person, but she wasn't. She was the sweetest, kindest person who brought us up singlehandedly cause my Dad died when we were all very young. There is no excuse for the lack of helping or caring...........none! Yes, every situation is different but in my case, there was no excuse.

I'm sorry - this turned out to be a RANT bc this is VERY FRESH and something I'm dealing with on a minute by minute basis, so please forgive it...it does feel better just getting it off my chest though!! As it is, it's just me and her here (read on), and she's not very good conversation company :(

 It's odd, but I was just going to start a thread on this TODAY!! My 98 yr old (99 in August) is dying - she took a sudden turn on Memorial Day Weekend, and it's been a quick decline since then. My brother - the always favorite in the family - lives 3 hours away, but he never calls and never comes home to see or talk to her, and certainly doesnt seem to care how she's doing (prior to this). Since MDW, I called him to come home and he didn't show up for 6 days, and didn't bother calling to find out how she was or IF SHE WAS STILL ALIVE in between. He did come on Friday, and for the 1st time in 10 days, I got some sleep. Prior to that, I hadn't slept more than an hour at a time, but just enough to keep me going, bc I'm here all alone in the house, and except for the hospice people, there's no one!! So back then, I had to check on her all the time bc she was that close. Since then, she got some better, only this week to hafta be chemicaly restrained at first bc she was strong enough to get up and out of the bed, but then would fall on the floor - and bc she still weighed 90 lbs (idt she weighs that now) I couldn't get her back in bed by myself...so I'm calling the ambulance to come get her off the floor and back to bed (of course, if my narcissistic jackass brother we're here, he could just put her right back in - but that's not a problem now...she's far too weak and she's not mentally there enuff to try and get up) , and now for the pain - I'm sure she has some form of rhabdomyolysis or muscle breakdown from laying in the bed for 2 weeks...anyway, he was supposed to come back yesterday after he got off work and it's 8pm on Saturday night and I've not heard hide nor hair from him since he left on Sunday. And she's declined SOOOO much in this week...Idk if she'll make it another week for him to get off work and make time for her!! And there's OH SOOOOOO MUCH MORE history here - 30 yrs of it and get just keeps adding to open old wounds...I made a decision today that bc no one in the family has been here to help me - or just even call and check on her - and my brother is a POS, that I'm not having a funeral!! I'm not calling all of them up to tell them she died when they didn't seem to care when she took a turn...and since he doesn't ever answer my calls and I can't leave a message, I'm not calling him either...WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO HUNT THESE PEOPLE DOWN when I'm already under so much stress to begin with (I've been her caretaker for 7 years, and the only time the family can be concerned with her is at her birthday and Christmas when they can all get together a big To-do and give her presents - with the tags still on them - that she didn't need instead of the things I tell them she does...I'm just not setting myself up for that kind of FREAKSHOW at her funeral - IDK if I'll be able to not show my arz and tell them all what I think of them!! So that's my decision!! I'm good with my memories of her. I'll make sure she gets buried and MAYBE have my preacher cousin say something gravesite - but other than that, if they want a memorial service, good luck finding and getting my brother to attend...and I'll be home packing my things and preparing to move to the beach and change my phone number!! I'm not sure when or how they'll find out about her passing, though, bc I'm not telling them!!

I feel your pain. I have a brother that does not pitch in but thankfully I have a sister and another brother that do help a lot. I look at my brother as a person that is making choices for himself and I will never be close to him. I drove 3000 to visit friends, relatives and clients and he couldn't even drive 1 hour to come see me. I didn't go the extra hour even though I was that close. It's a choice you have to make inside yourself how you are going to handle it. Each person has their own journey through life. Sending you happy thoughts and caring.

I guess I'm not that understanding. To me family is an obligation unless they are
so toxic they are detrimental to one's health. I don't understand how some
siblings leave one to shoulder everything while they try and lock down financial
benefit. It's so demoralizing. Ive watched this play out several times with other
families. Myself, I've had to deal with grifters trying to "help" but really just doing for the
hand outs. The tell tale sign is their joy at the thought of my dad suddenly dying??!!
Horrible to see this side of humanity. Counting his pennies and his time left.
Creepy and sad. Some people are just really selfish, and that's something to come
to terms with. Helps to know you're not alone and there's support. (((hugs)))

Same here! Boy do I get it. I enjoyed reading shakingdustoff as to resentment, anger, and hatred.
I worked in a nursing home and saw first hand the anger of families one to the other as to their parent, it happens all the time and now to me also.
What hurts me most is the hateful remarks my brother makes to my Dad to hurt his feelings, something all the time, yet my Dad was the one to help him buy his farm and put up the money, etc. He is POA of finances, yet I am the one to help Dad to go to a far away state to sell his winter home and clean up the home having a yard sale, by my self. His wife is a teacher and could have helped me at least a month to get it cleaned up and a sale of all the belongings and to fix it up, but he must have her by his side, she teaches bible school, so what so do I and sunday school. I help him also to understand computer and read things off of his accounts, etc, trying to sell antique cars on websites, yet my brother is POA of finance???
My brother mows my Dads yard, does not weed eat or trim, takes him to Dr sometimes.
Our mother is last stages of alzheimers and on hospice, so I have lived at my parents home for last year, I am POA of healthcare. He let my Dad know today that if he gets ill, he wants to go to a nursing home to not saddle his children with the care, these jabs are what makes me so angry. I know he said that because I am doing this.
He has gone on many vacations with his wife and children since my Moms illness, and also lets me know all the plans they have for the summer, why tell me this except to hurt my feelings.
My Dad is alert, but mom is dying.
I have again rambled my anger late at night.
Peace to all, sorry, I make little sense.

I can see why you are upset. Maybe your sister can't handle watching your Mom die, and is afraid to say that. I remember when my father was in the hospital for the last time (37 years ago), I told my Mom that I could not go see him anymore (I couldn't handle it). He died that night. To this day, I hate good-byes (of any kind). I did see a neighbor a few days before he passed. I cried the whole time. I don't know how I am going to be with Mom. Even though I take care of her everyday, I am hoping she passes when I am not there.... (of course nothing happens they way I want it to -- even with prayers...)