Yes, we are caring people. Unfortunately we don’t always see the signs ahead of time and should have sidestepped the responsibility before we got caught up in it. A friend pointed out to me that the Talmud says that when you see a sinking ship, you must throw a life preserver. But you don’t have to go down with the ship.
no. there are just as many mean/abusive parents in the world as there always was, since the beginning of time. (i counted all of them 😊).
some parents are sweet. some parents are abusive.
"Is it because caregivers are so empathic?"
no. don't blame yourself. don't blame other caregivers. it has nothing to do with you.
you could be a super mean person -- your parents would still be abusive to you (if they're abusive people). it changes nothing.
-------- so why are there so many abusive parents, on this forum?
because people who have wonderful, sweet parents don't need as much support. if you're having an awful time, you're more likely to reach out to a forum. if you're having a wonderful time caring for your sweet elderly parents, you're less likely to reach out to a forum: you're too busy being happy.
caregiving can create lots of trouble (stress, ill health, financial loss, opportunities lost, time lost, etc.) to the caregiver. if you add on top of that, totally unnecessary abuse by the very person you're caring for (whether the abusive parent is in a facility, or at home)...no wonder you need more support.
I think that narcissists raise children to "serve them" because for them it is all about THEMSELVES. It is hard to break out of the habitual behaviors we are taught as children. My parents were loving and independent and they raised me to be independent as well, my Mom having told me "because that's what the world will demand of you". They prepared themselves for age and moved into care earlier than I thought they needed to, in that they went into a "village" environment where they had first their own duplex and garden, then apartment, then ALF for my Mom after my Dad's death. They kept themselves busy all their lives with their own friends and hobbies. I think it is basically on you, recognizing "where you are" to now get the help you need, whether counseling or other, to recognize that you are grownup and in charge of your own life. That you can "support" but not take care of your elders, and that you certainly aren't responsible for their "happiness". That you can help them find safe environments for themselves, but that that isn't your own home. Consider a few visits to a Licensed Social Worker in private practice for counseling in life transitions. This may help you with suggestions to break out on new paths off the same circle we trudge by habit. I sure wish you good luck. Remember, as far as you thinking "why do so many have" such problematic parents, many of us didn't, and many of us don't intend to be problematic ourselves, but when you come to a Forum you see the ones with problems. I, as a nurse, often saw patients end in the hospital with side effects of this or that. Say blood thinners. Lots of side effects from them! And I got to thinking that they were "bad" because of that. It needs to be said I didn't see the ones for whom they were life savers that WORKED! It's a bit like that!
Because the people caring for caring compliant sweeties aren't having the same kinds of problems and don't need to post angry frustrated rants about it.
When I first came to the forum there were more questions about practical caregiving - how to do things and learning to understand about dementia. The forum seems to have morphed into a place where family dysfunction is the main topic, that's likely because the more you post about something the more it shows up in a google search so it becomes self perpetuating.
The Silent Generation did not have to care for their parents as most did not live into their 90's, also, when I left home I turned my keys in and that was that, no revolving door, they were not involved in being sandwiched. No built in babysitters, no regular flow of money to their children, it was all about them and their lives.
Now, those of that generation are all living too long (as are we boomers), not really living but hanging on, modern medicine is keeping many of us alive into our 90's. My mother is 97, I am 75, she could easily live to a 100.
We boomers changed much of how things with our children were done, we no longer let them do their own thing, we drove them everywhere, we let them move in and out of our houses, we gave them money, we baby sitted the grandchildren, in fact a very large % actually have raised the grandchildren. We created another generation of entitled people. We have come full circle and are in a codependent mess.
My mother is definitely not lovely, she is a B on wheels, she is in AL, we only do what we have to do as she deserves no more than that from us.
The posts I write are mostly for myself. It’s cathartic and way cheaper than therapy. It also helps to know I didn’t corner the market on miserable family members and there are others who are managing to deal with the hand that was dealt to them.
IDK. Partly we KNOW more about is as there are forums for discussions like this one, so we don't feel so isolated and 'bad' about decisions we make as per the care of our elderly.
I've learned a great deal in the time I've been 'here'. And I got to 'enjoy' Dorker's long term saga (remember her? I think she would have gone crazy without this safe place to vent!).
Could it be because the people who seek help on this forum are often the ones with these types of parents? Maybe others with "normal" parents are not as often seeking help on forums. Perhaps?
I’m so envious of friends whose parents made their own decisions to go into assisted living or secure in-home care on their own. I also envy those who have sisters or brothers voluntarily pitching in to help. My mother has tried and continues to try to make this all about the two of us with zero support. The psych who analyzed her at the request of the neurologist nailed it when he said she was a controlling, manipulative little thing. She’s trying to build a hell for two and I’m fighting to keep boundaries and stand strong. Searching for elder care attorneys this week. Her attorney, who drew up the POA, her Will and her Healthcare Directive hasn’t or won’t return my calls. Her doctors are brave enough to be blunt with her. She says she’s ‘not as sharp as she used to be’ and that’s all anyone needs to know. I told her that was abundantly clear and obvious to anyone who spends a few minutes with her. I’m standing my ground. I do not let her reduce me to tears. I’m not incredibly nice….
From dealing with my dad, mom & husband's aunt my experience has been their personalities are what they have always been. Unfortunately for some the negative aspects are accentuated now since they are older and dependent on others.
My dad suffered a lot the last months of his life through hospitalizations and rehab. He was not a good patient being frustrated, angry & confused. He was always sweet & kind to me and those last months were a gift to me. We spent some a lot of wonderful time together. Dad was 85 when he passed.
Husband's aunt I have known since I was 17. A sweet, kind woman and very appreciative of all I do to care for her. She is very affectionate and a second mother to me. She is 93. I look forward to seeing her.
As for my mom, I hope for the best but dread visits with her......mean spirited, gossipy, negative and her favorite hobby complaining and criticizing everyone. She already has run off neighbors trying to be friendly and some family. I have shortened my visits and decreased them due to my own health crisis that started in March. She creates drama and stress I cannot deal with now. She is spoiled and acts very entitled. She is 86.
Set boundaries with your difficult old one. Hire sitters and make sure their needs are met and do caring from a distance. Let them have a chance to miss you.
I came to these forums a few months ago and during this short time have read so many posts regarding dysfunctional families. I come from a similar family background with parents who stayed in a very miserable marriage for monetary reasons. My sister and I have lived with those psychological and emotional scares from our childhood - but we provided support to our parents in their elder years out of family obligation.
Our father for many years refused to see a doctor for GI issues and high BP. When he could no longer pass a BM (age mid 70's), I convinced him to see a doctor who confirmed blockage from tumor and colon cancer. He had surgery and discharged himself from the hospital against medical advise - cursing me for influencing him to seek medical care. Then over the next few years he had multiple strokes after refusing to go to a doctor for BP control. Family went through the stress of getting him to the ER/hospital/rehab until he finally became so disabled that he required NH care. He was always a miserable person and lingered for 5 years under those circumstances passing at age 89.
Next our mother in her later years, who was also a very difficult person had declined in health after multiple TIA events. Huge fight to get her to stop driving (age 92) and move into private AL apartment. Later she had more health issues hospital /rehab that required NH care in early 2020 - she is still there now age 95. Sadly she has always been a very unhappy person looking back on her life at least from a child's perspective.
I agree with comments that people who came from happier and healthy home life backgrounds and parental relationships will not be posting here. They never dealt with our childhood with these stressful family dynamics - I do envy them.
My dad same stuff. He is not abusive or mean or anything. However for years refused to go to doctors appointments or follow up if he did. Now he has stage 4 prostate cancer that has spread and severe glaucoma. In addition to that he is having delirium since he has been in the hospital and now rehab. My sister sits on the phone 2 and three hours several times a day and at night because he calls her panicked. I told her she cannot keep that up. It is wearing her down physically and mentally. I also asked for a psychiatric consultation for him as well.
Caregiving and making sure someone has what they NEED is often different than what they WANT. More often than not elderly people think their families and the world has abandoned them because they are not being treated like they're the center of the universe. Too bad get over it.
Such a good question. For me there is an unspoken msg that I receive LOUD AND CLEAR .....you need/should take care of me, I am old now and its your duty. (This msg is from a very narcissistic mother) My unspoken msg is ....I will help you and visit when I can and I will take 'some' care of you when/if necessary. My boundaries are heard now but not liked. So be it. I do however feel guilty, yet much less guilt than before and I take full responsibility for my own guilt.
Because we searched online for answers, advice or support once we were in the situation. Few of my friends are dealing with self-absorbed, demanding elders. Some of their parents have planned ahead, taken responsibility for their choices and made changes to accommodate their decline in stamina and abilities. I think dementia is so often the wild card.
I think it's the result of much more information, attention that is being given to narcisissm over the past few years. Narcissists have been able to hide their awful behavior for such a long time, and got away with some truely rotten things they've done to family, friends and coworkers. Isn't it interesting that when you read about someone's narcissistic behaviors here, you just nod your head in agreement and think "ooohh yeeahh....that's sooo familiar to me!" Now we can and do compare notes-kind've like sizing up the school bully, enough of us band together, that person knows they're loosing any way of harming us. I was my mother's caregiver and she was one, I dealth with it. It's not easy, I know I did my best and that's all I could hope for. She thanked me once or twice during the entire time. Which I did not expect. Oh well. So....this is the kind of forum that is needed for those of us who are going through the wringer of dealing with very difficult people who are, on average, very ill. As pointed out, those caregivers who are in much better, healthier family dynamics probably do not have a need for a place like this, and that's ok. Then, there's the rest of us, trying to get through yet another day of caregiving to a narcissist. Keep coming back, you are not alone.
I totally agree, I am very grateful to have found this place. I’m a part time caregiver and my month dealing with my parents begins next week, I feel as though I’m going off to serve a prison term. It’s a thankless job dealing with my 94 year old parents and I’m so **** depressed. Sad to say I cannot wait until this soul sucking slog is over.
Age and generation, silent generation , especially women living well into 90 and not being prepared for dealing with life, financial issues etc. And expecting children to solve all of it.
I don’t think it’s generational. I think it has to do with frustration and neediness and someone to vent to.
If you’re at home being tended to my “family” that is often one or two core people in charge of driving, shopping, toileting, feeding, home main ten eggs, your financials and so forth. Every time there’s a problem with any of all this, they’re the one or two you vent toward. And because they’re family, you want them to do all the family things like ice cream and picnics. They are the only ppl you associate with.
Always lots of comments on narcissism. I notice that as my husband has grown more dependent on care he has grown more demanding and expectant of service. Seems like as we grow older and more ill our focus narrows down to only our needs with no interest whatsoever in your needs. Thus the most important topic of the day, week, etc becomes their BM. Or maybe they’ve lost the tv remote and you need to get it RIGHT NOW. Or something like “what do you mean you don’t feel good; you can’t get sick, you have to take care of me.” And so it goes, focus narrows down until the most important subject becomes I/Me.
Exactly right, Barb. The needier someone becomes the more demanding they become. I don't play that game. No way and no how. I really couldn't care less about someone's BM. If I don't have to wipe their a$$ or change their diaper, it's not my problem. My mother is very much like your husband with the expectation of service simply because they demand it. My mother is famous for working herself up into hysterics if the remote goes missing. Or fabricating some crisis or impending disaster to get everyone around her all worked up and at each other's throats. We caught on quick with her nonsense and just ignore her. I've had many care clients like this too. They learn early on that I don't play games. I don't stand at attention waiting for them to command me. I don't tolerate abusive behavior. Not happening. I ignore. I find much of the time (even when there's some dementia) that the demanding and insistent behavior improves when you don't snap to attention the second they make a demand. Always make a person do for themselves in any way, no matter how small, that's independence. Even making someone wait for something is a form of independence. It's the same as with children. If the adults snap to attention the second the child makes a demand, they become a spoiled brat. Same with the elderly. The people who cater to their every demands 24/7 and play their games create the situation. Don't cater to your husband the second he demands something. Change the dynamic. Make him learn to wait. Even if he upsets himself. Ignore him when you do not want to engage. The next time you hear something like: 'You can't get sick. You have to take care of me' I want you to respond like this: 'No, I don't have to take care of you. I can have you put into a nursing home or hire outside help to take care of you'. Then walk away and ignore. Caregiving can only be successful when it's done ont he caregiver's terms. Not the care recipients.
It's just my gut feeling, with no real science behind it, but I think that as we age, we turn more inward. Things that used to mean something to us mean less. For example, I've always been an avid reader. Now, I find it difficult for a book to hold my attention. I want to be "entertained" by the obvious, without having to "concentrate" on it. Also, as we become less able to care for ourselves or our surroundings, the focus becomes smaller. As the focus narrows, the interest in outcomes for others become less visible...less visibility to the plight of others coupled with increased focus on ourselves = narcissism. Because the elderly are less able to move/think/care for themselves, while still wanting to maintain the equilibrium of how they used to function, they must rely on others. To ensure they receive the care they need, they place heavier demands, which are viewed (and are indeed) as self-centered or narcissistic.
in it. A friend pointed out to me that the Talmud says that when you see a sinking ship, you must throw a life preserver. But you don’t have to go down with the ship.
no.
there are just as many mean/abusive parents in the world as there always was, since the beginning of time. (i counted all of them 😊).
some parents are sweet.
some parents are abusive.
"Is it because caregivers are so empathic?"
no. don't blame yourself. don't blame other caregivers. it has nothing to do with you.
you could be a super mean person -- your parents would still be abusive to you (if they're abusive people). it changes nothing.
--------
so why are there so many abusive parents, on this forum?
because people who have wonderful, sweet parents don't need as much support. if you're having an awful time, you're more likely to reach out to a forum. if you're having a wonderful time caring for your sweet elderly parents, you're less likely to reach out to a forum: you're too busy being happy.
caregiving can create lots of trouble (stress, ill health, financial loss, opportunities lost, time lost, etc.) to the caregiver. if you add on top of that, totally unnecessary abuse by the very person you're caring for (whether the abusive parent is in a facility, or at home)...no wonder you need more support.
My parents were loving and independent and they raised me to be independent as well, my Mom having told me "because that's what the world will demand of you". They prepared themselves for age and moved into care earlier than I thought they needed to, in that they went into a "village" environment where they had first their own duplex and garden, then apartment, then ALF for my Mom after my Dad's death. They kept themselves busy all their lives with their own friends and hobbies.
I think it is basically on you, recognizing "where you are" to now get the help you need, whether counseling or other, to recognize that you are grownup and in charge of your own life. That you can "support" but not take care of your elders, and that you certainly aren't responsible for their "happiness". That you can help them find safe environments for themselves, but that that isn't your own home.
Consider a few visits to a Licensed Social Worker in private practice for counseling in life transitions. This may help you with suggestions to break out on new paths off the same circle we trudge by habit.
I sure wish you good luck.
Remember, as far as you thinking "why do so many have" such problematic parents, many of us didn't, and many of us don't intend to be problematic ourselves, but when you come to a Forum you see the ones with problems. I, as a nurse, often saw patients end in the hospital with side effects of this or that. Say blood thinners. Lots of side effects from them! And I got to thinking that they were "bad" because of that. It needs to be said I didn't see the ones for whom they were life savers that WORKED! It's a bit like that!
When I first came to the forum there were more questions about practical caregiving - how to do things and learning to understand about dementia. The forum seems to have morphed into a place where family dysfunction is the main topic, that's likely because the more you post about something the more it shows up in a google search so it becomes self perpetuating.
The Silent Generation did not have to care for their parents as most did not live into their 90's, also, when I left home I turned my keys in and that was that,
no revolving door, they were not involved in being sandwiched. No built in babysitters, no regular flow of money to their children, it was all about them and their lives.
Now, those of that generation are all living too long (as are we boomers), not really living but hanging on, modern medicine is keeping many of us alive into our 90's. My mother is 97, I am 75, she could easily live to a 100.
We boomers changed much of how things with our children were done, we no longer let them do their own thing, we drove them everywhere, we let them move in and out of our houses, we gave them money, we baby sitted the grandchildren, in fact a very large % actually have raised the grandchildren. We created another generation of entitled people. We have come full circle and are in a codependent mess.
My mother is definitely not lovely, she is a B on wheels, she is in AL, we only do what we have to do as she deserves no more than that from us.
Just my thoughts!
I've learned a great deal in the time I've been 'here'. And I got to 'enjoy' Dorker's long term saga (remember her? I think she would have gone crazy without this safe place to vent!).
People also live longer, it seems.
My dad suffered a lot the last months of his life through hospitalizations and rehab. He was not a good patient being frustrated, angry & confused. He was always sweet & kind to me and those last months were a gift to me. We spent some a lot of wonderful time together. Dad was 85 when he passed.
Husband's aunt I have known since I was 17. A sweet, kind woman and very appreciative of all I do to care for her. She is very affectionate and a second mother to me. She is 93. I look forward to seeing her.
As for my mom, I hope for the best but dread visits with her......mean spirited, gossipy, negative and her favorite hobby complaining and criticizing everyone. She already has run off neighbors trying to be friendly and some family. I have shortened my visits and decreased them due to my own health crisis that started in March. She creates drama and stress I cannot deal with now. She is spoiled and acts very entitled. She is 86.
Set boundaries with your difficult old one. Hire sitters and make sure their needs are met and do caring from a distance. Let them have a chance to miss you.
Our father for many years refused to see a doctor for GI issues and high BP. When he could no longer pass a BM (age mid 70's), I convinced him to see a doctor who confirmed blockage from tumor and colon cancer. He had surgery and discharged himself from the hospital against medical advise - cursing me for influencing him to seek medical care. Then over the next few years he had multiple strokes after refusing to go to a doctor for BP control. Family went through the stress of getting him to the ER/hospital/rehab until he finally became so disabled that he required NH care. He was always a miserable person and lingered for 5 years under those circumstances passing at age 89.
Next our mother in her later years, who was also a very difficult person had declined in health after multiple TIA events. Huge fight to get her to stop driving (age 92) and move into private AL apartment. Later she had more health issues hospital /rehab that required NH care in early 2020 - she is still there now age 95. Sadly she has always been a very unhappy person looking back on her life at least from a child's perspective.
I agree with comments that people who came from happier and healthy home life backgrounds and parental relationships will not be posting here. They never dealt with our childhood with these stressful family dynamics - I do envy them.
More often than not elderly people think their families and the world has abandoned them because they are not being treated like they're the center of the universe. Too bad get over it.
My unspoken msg is ....I will help you and visit when I can and I will take 'some' care of you when/if necessary. My boundaries are heard now but not liked. So be it. I do however feel guilty, yet much less guilt than before and I take full responsibility for my own guilt.
Guess we’re just the lucky ones. (sarc)
Isn't it interesting that when you read about someone's narcissistic behaviors here, you just nod your head in agreement and think "ooohh yeeahh....that's sooo familiar to me!" Now we can and do compare notes-kind've like sizing up the school bully, enough of us band together, that person knows they're loosing any way of harming us.
I was my mother's caregiver and she was one, I dealth with it. It's not easy, I know I did my best and that's all I could hope for. She thanked me once or twice during the entire time. Which I did not expect. Oh well.
So....this is the kind of forum that is needed for those of us who are going through the wringer of dealing with very difficult people who are, on average, very ill. As pointed out, those caregivers who are in much better, healthier family dynamics probably do not have a need for a place like this, and that's ok. Then, there's the rest of us, trying to get through yet another day of caregiving to a narcissist.
Keep coming back, you are not alone.
And expecting children to solve all of it.
If you’re at home being tended to my “family” that is often one or two core people in charge of driving, shopping, toileting, feeding, home main ten eggs, your financials and so forth. Every time there’s a problem with any of all this, they’re the one or two you vent toward. And because they’re family, you want them to do all the family things like ice cream and picnics. They are the only ppl you associate with.
A facility divvies all that out into departments.
I don't play that game. No way and no how. I really couldn't care less about someone's BM. If I don't have to wipe their a$$ or change their diaper, it's not my problem. My mother is very much like your husband with the expectation of service simply because they demand it.
My mother is famous for working herself up into hysterics if the remote goes missing. Or fabricating some crisis or impending disaster to get everyone around her all worked up and at each other's throats. We caught on quick with her nonsense and just ignore her.
I've had many care clients like this too. They learn early on that I don't play games. I don't stand at attention waiting for them to command me. I don't tolerate abusive behavior. Not happening. I ignore. I find much of the time (even when there's some dementia) that the demanding and insistent behavior improves when you don't snap to attention the second they make a demand. Always make a person do for themselves in any way, no matter how small, that's independence. Even making someone wait for something is a form of independence.
It's the same as with children. If the adults snap to attention the second the child makes a demand, they become a spoiled brat. Same with the elderly. The people who cater to their every demands 24/7 and play their games create the situation.
Don't cater to your husband the second he demands something. Change the dynamic. Make him learn to wait. Even if he upsets himself. Ignore him when you do not want to engage. The next time you hear something like: 'You can't get sick. You have to take care of me' I want you to respond like this:
'No, I don't have to take care of you. I can have you put into a nursing home or hire outside help to take care of you'. Then walk away and ignore.
Caregiving can only be successful when it's done ont he caregiver's terms. Not the care recipients.