What about a divorce?

As far as the right to make decisions, visit in hospital, or get medical info, a POA (power of attorney). I take care of most everything for my mom. Have made many copies to send or have put on file for her. She is widowed and doesn't draw enough S.S. to pay for her assisted living facility. I chip in around $400 a month. (plus she has less than $10,000. In savings that pays for co-pays, hearing aid, etc. I just sent $1200.00 to a hospital and ambulance company.)

I tried everything I could to get it forgiven. She has insurance, but they aren't doing enough. I'm changing it soon as I'm able.

I advocate for one couple--not elders yet, but here's an example of how people can shoot themselves in the foot for emotionally driven reasons:
The couple were "living together" for mutual benefit.
She needed protection and guidance related to mental and poor education issues.
They love each other.
She got pregnant.
He wanted to get married before baby was born, so baby'd be "legitimate"---kind of an old-school perspective.
Because they married BEFORE the baby was born, it meant HER Medicaid benefits were slashed.
Medicaid stopped covering prenatal visits, and refused to pay anything for the labor and delivery.
Medicaid assumed his work insurance was covering things--it wasn't; they couldn't afford it; his hours were cut; etc.
Because of this rocky financial start several years ago, and because they were living so close to the brink financially, that huge medical bill alone, kicked off a downward spiral of issues that have resulted in them not being able to pay their house payment, unable to pay other bills, lack of health care has pushed all their health to the limit.
IF they'd only waited until the baby was born, THEN got married, things would have been more stabilized financially.
They are currently awaiting eviction, have NO income now to pay rent anywhere, as he's had to stop working for health issues.
[[Yes, they have been counseled to re-apply for DSHS benefits]]

Timing is Key.
Sensible Planning is Key.

FOR ELDERS:
IF a couple has relatively few assets, so that splitting them would result in each being able to access some help systems, it might work
BUT...
There's that pesky 5-year look-back.

IF a couple is thinking of doing this, it needs done long before potential need.
AND, there needs to be REAL trust between them, that each will still be there for each other---or simply be ready for the possibility that that divorce "on paper" was really more to allow each person to have a separate life---
I'd say,
Be really happy inside yourself; have your own life, each of you!
Be stable and willing to live alone or shop around for other partners, because that marriage license? sometimes, during hardships, might be the only thing holding two people together, making them think about how to better resolve their problems.
OTH, some divorced people might still stick together to help each other, no matter what.
But it has to be done long before need, to properly cushion against that 5- year look-back by DSHS.

I am an eligibility worker for Medicaid in Oregon. As far as this State goes, the 5-year look back will apply. If the dissolution is completed and five years goes by, you are in the clear. It is not fraud. I have clients who have gotten divorced just for this reason and it worked out just they way they planned (because they consulted an attorney and the 5 years went by before anybody went on any services involving Medicaid and yes you can remain in the same household). If you want to explore answers on your own, visit your state's government website and you should be able to locate the administrative rules regarding Medicaid. Contact your local Aging & Disable office and see if you can speak with a service case manager or if the office has resources for a senior law clinic (we have them here and they are free). Good luck.

Meatjeanne, I agree with you. I'm sure that both of these people are anxious about each other's future, and are exploring all possible ways of protecting each other.

But the option of divorce seems extreme to me, and I do question the priorities of whichever person it was first suggested that to them. Not as extreme as suicide, of course, which would be better still for the surviving spouse (just think of all the expense it'd save). Hey, if you could make your suicide look like an accident, the surviving spouse could even collect on a life insurance policy..!

MJ, I am sorry for the situation you find yourself in. Alzheimer's is horrific enough, without financial insecurities to add to your troubles. But as you have already realised for yourself, the fact that an option is feasible doesn't make it ok. Sometimes I feel hollowed out by living in a world that puts financial considerations above all others, and would, for example, break up a long and loving marriage - which, again, I'm sure this is - so that the surviving spouse won't need to access social security. How does that make anything better?

Medicaid has seen this too many times and has already figured out how to get at his assets anyways. Don't even bother attempting it.

Yes, talk to an Elder Care Law Attorney. Yes, the five year would be in affect for looking back into their assets. I have worked with several people with MS or visually impaired that divorced their spouse and were able to legally make them the caregiver of the spouse with a long term health condition. The lawyer was able to set up their finances so that the monies would help pay medical expenses, bills, and to still have some quality of life.

Remember he may have MS, but MS does not have him!!!

Good luck on this adventure in life and continue to enjoy the things you have been doing for many more years to come.

No one can cry fraud if you get divorce for any reason, including to protect at least half the assets from the government. Well, anyone can cry fraud, but this is a free country, and you are free to divorce, for any reason. Just make sure the assets are split 50/50.

The health care system is pretty expensive. I think the people who are upset that someone might be "hiding assets" are not thinking about people who are currently comfortable financially, but would be totally wiped out by long term care. Rather than having the surviving spouse end up in poverty and then on medicaid, planning ahead is very important. Especially if one is much younger than the other. It is so complicated, that it is important to see an attorney who specializes in this field to talk about trusts, divorce, getting long term care insurance etc.

I also worked with people at the bottom rungs of income, who could not marry or the combined assets would disqualify them from medicaid (by very little income) even though their medical expenses were huge.

Keep in mind that hospitals are not above going after your home and other assets to cover bills. Again, potentially wiping out the surviving spouse.

Countrymouse, I am thinking MAYBE these two loving people are thinking into the future. The gentleman wants his wife to be taken care of in HER old age. They are thinking ahead...which I wish to hell my husband had done when he was first diagnosed with Alzheimers. Six years after diagnosis now, and things might be different.
I went to elder care attorney....he told me there was something called Spousal Abandonement. Just leave the spouse at the hospital, say you couldn't take care of them anymore, and go. He told me the spouse would keep any moneys he had coming in (soc sec, or retirement) and that would be it.He said I would NOT have any say in my husbands care but that I could visit him, 'the home' or whatever could not keep me away. I thought this sounded rather strange. Of course I did not do this, and have not stayed with this attorney (I have NO attorney right now).

It IS fraud, unless you live in separate residences. I know for a fact. My cousin's wife accomplished it for a few years, then was turned in for living with him and her check was frozen immediately.

There is so much misinformation here, I wouldn't touch any of it except that of GabrielHeiser.

I would consider the idea of moving out of the United States, if you are both comfortable with living in another culture. The United States is the wrong country for families facing these financial issues. There are about 82,000 American citizens currently on assisted living or nursing care in Mexico, and there may be other countries which provide similar, affordable options.

I didn't know that you didn't have a choice of who you make power of atty. Along with choosing a health segregate. If they divorce dose the law keep her from becoming both of these. And if He had a will wouldn't that covering everything. from A-Z just something to ask your atty.

This is most definitely dishonest and fraudulent to me but I am sure you can find ways to achieve this idea.

Move out of the USA

It is done all the time....

I have had clients get a divorce for this exact reason. It is important that the divorce lawyer work with a Medicaid-planning expert elder law attorney, though, so that the divorce accomplishes its goal. Note that you cannot simply transfer most of the assets to the healthier/younger spouse; under the federal Medicaid statutes, there must be an "equitable distribution" of the marital assets. For example, if under an "equitable distribution" each spouse would keep $100,000, but you get a judge to grant a divorce allowing the healthier spouse to keep $150,000, then for Medicaid purposes this would be treated as a GIFT from the nursing home-bound spouse to the healthier spouse. Such gift would be a penalty-causing transfer subject to the five-year lookback rule.

On the other hand, which assets each spouse brought into the marriage or inherited or received as gifts from their relatives, all play a part in which assets each spouse can receive under the divorce laws. As you can see, it gets complicated, which is why you need two attorneys working together to accomplish this.

I address the issue of a Medicaid-planning divorce in my book. Good luck!

If you do get a divorce for any reason...the disabled person could always sign a Power of Attorney for Healthcare, Estate and Financial. If the disable person lacks the mental capacity to issue a POA then the divorced spouse can apply for a Plenary Guardianship of the disabled.

Is there any likelihood the soon-to-be impoverished spouse's earnings or IRA's can be protected? You may have already retitled community or joint property but if not I would explore that possibility. Above all, protect yourself from accusations of fraud.

Also, please remember that if they get a divorce, your mom would no longer have the right to make decisions for his care, would not be allowed to visit if he ended up in a hospital in intensive care; she would have no legal right to knowledge of his condition, etc etc etc.

The entire system needs an overhaul...insurance doesnt compensate the spouse for additional care the disabled person requires...even with a visiting nurse many times that service only offers a respite for the non disabled spouse. As for income--some agencies consider your ANNUAL income some agencies consider your MONTHLY income. Annual and Monthly seem the same right? Nope it isnt---some income is issued/paid/drawn on a monthy basis but isnt taxable at years end-(Annuities-SS Disability-Non Taxable Retirement disbursements ect..). So, you can be over the monthly income guidelines but grossly under by tax time. Why am I pointing this issue-out in reference to a "Convenient Divorce"? Because although it isnt morally correct--for many, it is their only recourse. I also feel joint assets are 50% to the union-so only 50% should be considered for the care for the disabled spouse.
One other issue---A spouse cant claim their disable spouse as a dependent-but a divorced spouse can-with all of the deductions associated with taking care of them. So my opinion is make sure that your state doesnt hold you to some sort of "number of years divorced" standard and do your homework as far as tax laws goes. I live in Illinois and I do know several couples that have been forced to have a "Convenient Divorce" due to one spouses disability.

A friend of mine did it, but he was nearly bedfast and she couldn't manage his care. He went into a home, and she has remarried to a man in his 90's who takes care of her now.

I presume the tactic to which Caril is referring is for her to file for divorce and have her husband "settle" the divorce by passing ALL of the marital assets to his wife. This will not work for at least 2 reasons: 1. No one in a divorce proceeding relinquishes his.her rights to ALL assets. It i a sham that makes a mockery of the divorce and Medicaid systems. I doubt a divorce judge would approve such a grossly unequal distributuion2. As the divorce is being sought for the sole purpose of qualifying the husband for public benefits, a 60 month look back would apply. Therefore you would be no further ahead. I strongly suggest you consult with an experienced elder law attorney in your state.

Why not hire reasponably priced care for him in your own home and live out the remaining time he has left in a loving supportive environment. That is what you earned and saved your money for a " Rainy Day". You are entitled to keep 50% of joint assets and 100% of your own 401K or other investments that are in your name only. Most state also allow you to keep the house if you live in it. See an estate planning attorney.

Whether something is morally wrong or whether it's illegal are two different issues. Talk to a lawyer.

Hire a Lawyer to prevent scam or fraud. I would be careful. Donot hide assets.

I'm in agreement with those who recommend seeing an Elder Law Attorney. However, I am a bit disappointed and I feel a bit uncertain about the help we got from a so-called Elder Law Attorney, I will not criticize you for considering a divorce. I have heard of others who have actually done that. Unfortunately, there are laws hat prevent us from even protecting assets to provide for ourselves. Having a husband with dementia,not knowing what his future will be, and desiring to protect resources for myself (I, too, am younger than my husband and very healthy), I have been doing/reading things to see how I can protect income/resources from Medicaid, if it becomes necessary. I no longer feel this is WRONG as some feel. Think about those millionaires in our society who pay very little or no taxes - do you think that is wrong. I say, get as much advice as you can and do what you must for your own survival. Blessings and hugs to you.

If you're getting a divorce for the purpose of hiding assets, it's fraud.

Why would you do something so dishonest? Assistance is for those that genuinely need it. See an elder care Atty about setting up a trust.

A divorce would have had to happen five years prior to any need for assistance (at least as far as I know). I'm not an expert in this field, and there may be circumstances where this could work, so yes, see an attorney. However, I doubt that this will work at this time. You'd still have the five year look-back.
Take care,
Carol