Taking over the finances. How do I prepare for this discussion?

Under very different circumstances I took over my very independent minded dad’s finances while he was hospitalized. I changed all bills to come to me online, rerouted his mail to my house, and took over taking care of his accounts. This was done with the blessing of my siblings who, like me, knew it needed to happen. I prepared a 3 ring binder with simple spreadsheet like info, listing all his bills, dates I’d paid them, and how they were paid. Then I waited for the upset, very surprisingly when I showed dad the binder he accepted the changes, even started bragging to others that I was taking care of everything. Not the reaction I was expecting at all, but him being able to see it all, spelled out, made him accept it. I would still have done it even if he didn’t. I hope you’ll make peace with knowing you’re looking out for your mother’s best interests, keep good records, sell her car and don’t allow access to enough money to buy another, don’t argue with mom over any of it, and know she’s blessed to have you in her corner

I like your thinking. Well done!

I believe you are saying you are the successor trustee, to serve as Trustee when your mother is incapacitated. If you feel well and able to make these decisions that is fine; if not do get the advice of a good Licensed Fiduciary to help you; the Trust pays for this. I did this work for my brother. I made certain he had his own account, spending account, in the amount of 5,000.00. I wish you good luck. Keep meticulous records as you go along. This is a BIG job at BEST, even when things are very well understood and you are very capable and the things were well organized. You can consider the help of a Trust and Estate Lawyer as well. If this is a sizable estate the amount you pay is WELL WORTH IT.

Thank for the info. Yes I'm successor trustee. I do have a licensed Fiduciary, he is recommending setting up the banks much like you recommended. Yes I have been keeping records of my expenses.

Who told you to move "most of the money into the trust"?    Was it the attorney?  
This is something you need to handle with care; if your mother has stocks, raise the issue with the attorney and ask if he can recommend a trust accountant.   Bank accounts are a piece of cake compared the stock distributions and cap gains.

I have a feeling that once the day comes your mom figures out you're taking care of things, it'll be a load of her shoulders.

My mom had dementia and my dad was diagnosed with cancer with a short time to live, so they resigned from their trust, putting me -- the successor trustee -- in charge of all the finances. You could just see the weight lifted from my dad. He was cognitively fine, but caring for my mom and managing their household as well as the finances had become a real burden for him. Neither he nor I realized it until I was living with them while he was sick. He'd really only been able to accomplish one major task a day, whether it was going to the grocery store, paying the few bills, or doing the laundry. Just like your mom with the hours spent paying the bills, everything just slows down to a glacial pace as we age.

You're very fortunate to be taking over before Mom is gone -- it makes the transition much smoother, and not something you have to take on when you're dealing with a death, too. However, I wonder what's in the trust now if not the money? Definitely consult the advisor, because there are things a trustee can and can't do, and I'm not sure whether you can legally move the money into the trust because you don't control money outside the trust in your role as Trustee. Now, if you have financial power of attorney for your mom, you might be able to, so check with the lawyers and financial folks before doing anything.

Don't worry about moving stocks, etc. into the trust regarding tax changes. You will inherit a stepped-up cost basis when Mom passes away (same for her house if you haven't sold it by then), and the taxes will be virtually nothing. Know that IRAs cannot be put into a trust, too. If Mom has a traditional IRA, you might consider moving money from it into a Roth IRA. When you inherit it, you'll only have 10 years to deplete the IRAs, and you want that money to grow tax-free as much as possible. There's talk that Roths are going to be eliminated soon, so setting one up before that happens is a good way to save on taxes.

The best thing to do is put all the financial stuff in the same place, such as Schwab, Fidelity, or some other investment institution. It just makes it much easier to manage when you know where it all is.

I've been handling my mom's finances for the past three years since my dad died, and Mom passed away three months ago. Now I'm in the process of disbursing all the assets of the trust and I still have to sell the house, but it's been very smooth all in all. I'm grateful my folks resigned from the trust and let me take over when I was still able to ask my dad questions and have him around to introduce me to his banker and Schwab reps. It's been good to have a team behind me to help with the complicated stuff (TAXES!).

Circle - please look at what are the funds / income to support the Trust. And if the income sources are themselves titled or owned by the Trust. and what would cause the Trust to defund.

What seems to happen is that it’s the elders Social Security & retirement $ that is the main accessible income and the home is titled in the Trusts name, so all the homes costs (taxes, insurance, maintenance etc) are paid from the Trust. The other assets - like stocks - are too titled owned the Trust but they’re not immediately liquid.

So if something major were to happen, like a fire, there isn’t the immediate cash at hand. Things run smoothly now as there’s nothing challenging the Trusts $. But if you’re dealing with elderly or infirm, imo you need to have $ quickly available….. perhaps 2 years of property costs, 6-8 months of regular daily living costs and 6 mos of private pay for a NH as cash in the Trust. If the main income is SS / retirement once they die, that stops cold. There better be $ to pay the now increased property taxes or home will go up for tax sale.
I’ve done tax sales and it’s sadly amazing just how many of the homes on the list are homes with elderly owners but titled in the Trust and the Trust has totally defunded so taxes aren’t paid and they get tax sale lein / redemption placed. There’s a whole cottage industry of folks who specifically look for just this type of tax sale property.

Circleci2, I'm confused.   You wrote in response to my comments:

"No Trust. Just a bank accounts.

Your opening post referred to a trust.  I'm not sure how to interpret "No Trust" unless you mean "No, there are just bank accounts", and that there are no stocks, mutual or other liquid assets?  Could you clarify?  

This isn't a criticism; I realize this is very stressful for you, but the assets to be funded into the Trust make a big difference in trust management and whether or not you'll need continued legal support.  And that affects how easily you can manage the Trust, whether or not you'll need legal or financial assistance in filing the complex Trust returns, and possibly other issues.

If the bank accounts are the only source of funding, I really question why they need to be in a Trust unless you specifically want to restrict your mother from donating to shyster causes  as well as purchase items she needs?

Sorry my error, no stocks/mutual. Just funding the trust with the bank account. By moving the accounts into the trust is to protect her assets, and from shyster and buying a new car.

If your mom's memory is also in decline, she may not even remember after you break the news to her. However, the downside of this is that you have to keep telling her when she forgets, then asks.

If you have proof of her struggles (like my MIL had $900+ in overdrafts of her checking acct) she may acquiesce if you point this out. Show her how easy it is to keep tabs on your account when you have online access and how simple it is to sign up for Bill Pay. Tell her she'll still get monthly bank statements and you'll give an accounting any time she asks.

But it all may be for naught if she has Anosognosia, a cognitive condition that can occur in people with dementia, which causes them to lose self-awareness and thus not be able to "see" their illness no matter how much "proof" of it is pointed out.

Source: https://www.nami.org/About-Mental-Illness/Common-with-Mental-Illness/Anosognosia

Many people with dementia don't realize that they have dementia. They think they are fine. Your mom sounds like one of these people. Another symptom of dementia is making bad decisions about money. Try to get all of the necessary legal documents in place while your mother can still sign legal documents, if it's not too late. It's best to have power of attorney (POA) set up for financial and medical decisions, she needs a will if she has assets, and a living will with her medical directives. Banks, credit card companies and other financial institutions often have their own POA forms. You need to be on file with Medicare and Social Security to be able to speak on her behalf. This can be done with a phone call with you and her speaking to them together. The discussion about this is that we don't know when we may become incapacitated, and it's best to have the paperwork in place in case that happens. Ask your mother for a credit card on her account with your name on it. You can probably do this with a phone call to the cc company, with her sitting by you. You need this to purchase things for her. If you get POA, you can set up her accounts online to be paid automatically from her bank account or credit card and can even go paperless so that she won't get bills or statements. If you eventually need to hire aides to care for her in her home, lock up her valuables and financial papers. At that point it's better for no paper statements to be going to her address. If you can set the limit on her credit card to a low limit, it will limit the amount she can spend. When I saw that my mother was filling out checks incorrectly and missing due dates, I was able to suggest that I take over her finances. Good luck!

You should be totally up front with mom or you will lose her trust.

Let mom get a 2nd Opinion.

Older people can start forgetting things like where they put something but that doesn't mean they can't drive.
It's your m9m's money and she should be able to do exactly what she wants as long as it isn't hurting anyone.
Also, manage her money and hire Care Givers so she can stay, live and die in her own home.

Circle, I am a bit confused, as first Trustee was mentioned. Then not Trust but accounts. I think what you are looking for is being able to act as the POA for your Mother. However, with your mother's descent into dementia already being a bit severe she is unable to make you either Trustee or POA, both of which require the informed consent of a competent person.
You may need to get appointed as your Mother's conservator. This is an onerous and difficult task in which you are considered legally a fiduciary and in which you are liable legally for every penny into and out of her estate, and a record carefully kept. So first step would be to make certain you are both able and willing to do this. Next step would be a trip to an elder law or Trust and Estate attorney. You should have with you the documentation of two doctors attesting to your mother being unable/incompetent to act in her own behalf. Then the attorney will assist you in being appointed by the court.

To get the car out of the way - she can't buy one if there's not enough money in her acct to purchase. Leave the broken car sitting on the drive way so, for the most part, she thinks she still has a car. In fact, take some parts off of it to make sure she can't get it started. Put a note under the hood somewhere to tell a potential good Samaritan not to fix it due to her health - they could just say they are trying to order a part.

Mail needs to be intercepted. That's the only way to stop the scammers from asking for money once you sent some. Even if it takes her all day to pay a few bills - so be it. Does she write checks? If so, look it over to see if they are correct. Does she pay online? You can follow up online to see if really paid. As a matter of fact, change the bills to be auto-draft and no paper copies mailed. Maybe change one at a time so she doesn't notice so much.

If she continues to tell people she's doing good and living independently - leave that alone. There is a lot to be said about your mental feeling of wellbeing. When she thinks she's not doing good, the regression will start as far as mobility and the mental

HI, Circlepi2:

Your Mom does not know she has dementia because she cannot understand it and cannot act in sound mind. She thinks she is normal.

Yes, do get signed on as soon as possible as her trustee to make decisions for her. An eldercare and finance attorney will help you. Gradually stop all paper mailing to auto accounts for bank accounts, investments and bills, etc.

Leave the car as disabled as possible as it is too dangerous for her to drive it anymore. As one forum reader said, tell your mother that the mechanic has to order parts that takes time to get. Get free estimate inspections and show Mom how much it costs to fix. Is there enough money to pay for it? Try to get her decision, divert her from driving, if she understands. Oh, yes, like too expensive to buy another car. With an invalid license, Mom cannot test drive the car herself. Do not aid her with this action, either.

My suggestion would be to get as much as possible done and dusted before you have the discussion.

1) As soon as you have the power, transfer the bulk of her money to safety.
2) Get a debit card with a sensible limit in her name - eg $500 that she can spend, any more and it needs a transfer to top it up, which of course you will help with. Then tell her that the bank says the old credit card is no long valid, and take it away.
3) Set about cancelling the catalogues – tell them that she has no longer access to funds to pay.
4) Put a mail redirect on her address at the post office, producing your authority. It can go to you, or to a PO Box in her name, which of course you collect for her as she can’t drive.
5) Disable the car, as already suggested.

When you have the ‘discussion’, you don’t have to break all the news at the same time. She may never need to know that she now has a debit card, not a credit card, because you will ‘sort out any problems’. She may not need to be told that most of her money has gone into her trust. She may not even realise that an increasing number of the catalogues aren’t turning up these days.

There is no need to be cruel enough to say ‘You have dementia, I’ve taken over all your finances’. If you do it by dribs and drabs, the problems may just fade out.

PS I now have a debit card, because I got nervous about misplacing my credit card because of its high limit. The credit card is now stored safely, so I can get to it if I want. Using the debit card in shops feels no different from using the credit card.

One day at a time .....I used to say one min ute at a time.Remember that you are only looking out for her best interests and who better than you. I used to worry about what would she think of me and six months later she thought I was her sister and not her daughter.
You love her very much to care for her and that is all that you are doing.

Circlepi2: Imho, perhaps you need to retain an elder law attorney if you have not done so. You will have to be perfectly clear with the attorney wherein your mother's assets lie, e.g. does she have investment income and if so, are they providing ordinary dividends or qualified dividends to her?

I would stop the junk mail immediately and explain to her why you had to stop the mail and why the doctor has told her she is not able to drive. I would explain to her and then take those actions without telling her.

First of all, people with dementia are gone and nothing you do or say is going to affect them so do not waste your time. And as to being sweet, gentle - when you are facing major life decisions you have no choice but to get tough - try to get them to listen and cooperate peacefully but if nothing works, then get tough and simply say these are the new rules based on professional advice, and you want to feel YOU are doing something actively to make her life easier, and YOU are going to do whatever must be done. With dementia they will rant and rave but soon forget. As to the junk mail, immediately intercept the mail and contact each one by phone and in writing - STOP AT ONCE. Do not let her get the mail and if need be, stop it in the post office and you can get it. As to going out and buying a new car, how would she go and look at one to find if someone does not take her. Let all know - NO TRIPS ANYWHERE WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION. And perhaps notify the local dealers if she somehow gets there. I would do whatever legal steps are involved upon advice from professionals and not say anything or just pretend with her for now. If she finds out, so what? She has dementia - so it doesn't matter what she thinks and if she blows up. Then YOU can blow up because she doesn't cooperate and you are trying to care for her. She will forget shortly. And as to any money and expenses, record everything in the event she needs Medicaid down the line. Be tough.

Your mom has anosognosia - the inability to realize her true condition and abilities. She will deny every time that she needs help. Everybody else recognizes that she struggles and you have taken positive steps to manage her affairs. God bless you!

I would start with talking to your mom about setting up her finances so they are easier for her to manage and avoid identity theft. Put the recurring ones on autopay. Pay the few "odd bills" via credit card so she only has 1 credit card bill to pay monthly - and you make sure to take care of this one. I would also suggest it might be wiser to give her "new debit/credit card" that is actually a reloadable gift card. You decide how much money is loaded onto that card and she doesn't access the other funds. You might consider a therapeutic "lie" that the doctor asked you to help her avoid identity theft and you started monitoring her finances online to do just that. The lie part is that you are actually the one managing her finances.

Also register with the post office to have all junk mail removed from her deliveries. As for the scams, file police reports and contact her financial institutions. They should go after the scammers.

My mother didn't realize she was in cognitive decline - she thought she was fine...but wasn't. First thing is to have a medical professional certify that she is unable to make sound decisions regarding her care and finances. In the state I live, this letter is usually one you have to attach to the POA document for various entities - banks, utilities, post office, etc. This allows you to make the decisions and changes.

Do a change of address with the post office - either have it redirected to your home address or open a P.O. box. This way the amount mail that she will receive is almost zero.

With the bank, I do not know which bank you have, but what I encountered was that each bank seemed to have a different set of rules and requirements. My mother didn't have much - just a checking and savings account, that I took over with the POA. And kept the checks/debit/credit cards. For bill paying, I placed everything on auto pay - from utilities to insurance policies - only thing that I couldn't was $$ due for property taxes and to the irs. I told my mother that the postal service was having problems and that all her bills are now paid automatically and on time - no issues with lost mail or delayed mail or dealing with the rising cost of postage stamps and checks.

Unless she has alot of $$, not sure why the bank funds would have to go into a Trust...you could just keep the accounts she has now, just change who can authorize signing. Also, place limits on the $$ amount of written check just in case she has some hidden away (like my mother did). I placed a limit of $100 so if any transaction came through for over that amount I was notified.

You could give her a prepaid card ...with say $150.00 on it - for emergencies. (and just in case some scammer calls her and she willingly gives out financial info).

Car wise - she is still driving??? You say her DL is revoked - she can't do a big transaction like that at any car dealership without a DL.

And let her neighbors be aware so that she can't ask for rides to places.

About that 'discussion' - I would just tell her that with all the identify theft going on today and with mail getting lost or stolen, that these were necessary steps to take for her safety and well being.

She has dementia..she can not understand…just do what needs to be done..I am my moms POA..I handle all the cash/holdings for her..she never wanted her stock sold {our inheritance}..now after the cash is gone I will still have to to pay for her assisted facility..I just let her chatter about her stock holdings. I avoid saying much. She soon forgets about money and the topic changes. I also would stop your mom from being able to buy a car..she could kill someone driving. It is our responsibility to keep them safe. Tough job but necessary..Good Luck.

As far as $ is concerned, I started writing out the payments and handed them off to him to sign. At the beginning he would make sure I had them correct and after a while he just signed them and then forgot he had bills .. He still refuses to acknowledge there is anything wrong with him . It is
called Anosagnosia. In his reality, there IS nothing wrong with him .. It a horrid disease and progresses at different speed with different people .

Hi- Sounds like you're doing a good job.
Your mom has anosognosia, not uncommon in dementia--she's not going to be able to grasp the changes that have occurred.
This helped me understand that the losses are much more than just memory and that I needed to take more control:
http://www.dementiacarestrategies.com/12_pt_Understanding_the_Dementia_Experience.pdf
People with dementia rely on routine and the familiar for prompts to get through their day, and can handle doing one or two step tasks. They have lost the ability to put the steps of a task in order. That's why it takes so long for the check writing. [find the checkbook, find a pen, have the bill ready, know how to fill in the check, transpose the bill amount to the check, fill in the check register, have an envelope, have a stamp, address envelope, take to mailbox.]
As suggested here, remove the triggers for tasks --go paperless billing and YOU control the accounts, use your phone number/email for access. Stop the junk mail, filter her emails-my mom only gets emails from her contact list to which I added a few trusted companies she used to shop at, everything else goes to the junk mail for deletion after a day. If you can migrate to, or are already have online charting with her doctor, that will be helpful-those programs allow you to upload your trustee documents in the portal, which is handy. They also have advanced care (living will) documents available, and it makes it easier to ask questions, set up appointments.
Evaluate if your mom is still [capable of] taking her meds--at some point you may have to start supplying prompts, and after that you will need to manage a way to ensure she takes them-maybe a morning visit from an aide who can also make her lunch or do light cleaning. It's is easier to establish new routines earlier than later in the disease, as well as initiating moves to assisted living.
Consider if you want to set up online accounts with the IRS-- and SS may have that now too. This forum is excellent and I also encourage you to check out the threads on the Alzheimer's website listed below--between the two there's not much people haven't seen!
https://www.alzconnected.org/discussion.aspx
With my mom, even though she has anosognosia she acknowledges that her memory is poor. I told her I wanted to take her finances off her plate as something I wanted to do for her, and she's accepted it. She had already done some planning and had a trust feeding a 'living expenses bank account', so it was easy to tell her we were following her 'plans'. Once reassured & once the triggering paperwork/mail was intercepted she mostly forgot about finances..I think it just depends on where your mom is with her dementia. Underneath the pushback of losing some independence I got the feeling that my mom was relieved. It takes a lot of brain power to keep it all together during the day, and with the dementia each day is a challenge, where the person with the disease is set up to fail--you're doing the right thing by creating more support for her, even if she thinks she doesn't need it.