Sibling trying to move Mom out of AL. Can he legally do this?

Maybe. Even if mom has been declared incompetent, she still has power to decide where she lives. The only thing that could stop her leaving is if sis has guardianship.

Hopefully bro was just saying what mom wanted to hear. Pacifying her for the moment.

I hope so! He has rarely visited her until 2 weeks before she moved and now he wants to get involved but only if it's his way! Just don't believe it would be best for my mom

Did you hear this from your brother homself? Or from mom?

Notes could be real or imagined too.

The sister with DPoA is the one who gets to legally make this decision, which would need to be in your mom's best interests. "Durable" usually means it doesn't require a formal diagnosis of incapacity. Sister should check the language in her PoA paperwork to confirm this.

What does your sister the DPoA think about moving her? If she is authorizing it, then it stands. If I were in you shoes I'd make it clear that I'm not coming to help with Mom at all. Vote with your actions. They'll find out soon enough that it was a mistake.

I do agree with BarbBrooklyn who suggested that unless you hear this news directly from your sister or brother, it may be imagined by your mom, notes or no notes.

If your Mom is mentally competent, yes, she can make the decision to move in with her son. Whether this is a wise decision or not isn't really the question; only her competency to make her own decision matters in this matter. A DPOA acts for a person in the persons behalf as the person directs the activity if the person is competent, and acts for a person who is diagnosed as incompetent in what the POA believes is the "best interest". So this comes down to competency question pure and simple.

I’d sit tight and wait and see what happens. You say that mother “did not want to live with any of her 7 children”, but she may have changed her mind after this experience. Brother may be making soothing noises while she settles in. Or he may be right! If she was at entry level for AL, she may get on OK with life with brother. Or brother may find that it doesn’t work out OK for him and his wife. Of so, he’ll have to cope with reversing everything.

You think that AL was the right move, but trying to upset things now could create a lot of anger. As you don’t have POA, you are better off letting mother call the shots, at least for a while.

Well, since the brother won't communicate with me or my sis with the POA, we are guessing that he figured out he couldn't handle Mom's needs at his home. The next tactic he has taken is to blame my POA sis with putting her in assisted living so Mom is now attacking her. We are at the point if he wants to move her home, have at it, but we will not be assisting him. It seems harsh but don't know what else to do. I have heard it takes 3-6 months for residents to adjust to their new surroundings?? Really don't want to start over with this process for Mom. Thanks for all the responses, it helps to know there are others trying to muddle through this stage of life too!

30 days is not long enough for your mom to get comfortable with the assisted living situation. If the caregivers there know she is thinking to leave they may step up their efforts to keep her happy and involved. Moving to your bother's home would most likely not be permanent, especially if there is not care for her there. It would be so disruptive and bad for your mom to make the move.

Brother is jumping the gun, for sure.

Has he ever cared for her over any length of time--and I don't mean during a family dinner? He's in for a rude shock and I bet his wife isn't any too thrilled.

I'd let this simmer and not bring it up. It will probably blow over, don't stir this pot.

30 days isn't long enough to be acclimated to a new surrounding. Maybe you sibs all need to meet and talk and be on the same page per mom's care. ONE 'wildcard' can wreck the whole plan. In our case, the 'wildcard' moved mom in with him and 23 years later greatly regrets it.

I also have a brother who doesn’t want mom in assisted living. I was searching for places near us for her to go after living in my house with her a month. She fell twice with injuries can’t stand or walk too long and has had bathroom accidents on a few occasions. He took her from my house and now he and his girlfriend are caring for her. I don’t think they can do it. I couldn’t. Maybe that’s what it’s going to take for them (our brothers) to see mom needs 24 hours help. My mom doesn’t want to go to assisted living or any nursing home. She cries every time it’s mentioned. Hopefully my brother will see it’s what she needs. I know what you’re going through.

The NH will not let it happen because he does not have PoA. Relax.

I knew my mom would need assistance in assisted living….so I introduced her to a friend who was willing to visit her, take her for mani/pedi and out for shopping or lunch. When this friend got a full time job and had to stop, I looked for another “friend”. I did not tell mom that the friend was getting paid or mom would fire her. This friend was someone I found (prayerfully) by going to a nursing site on facebook and contacting the administrator. I also considered contacting a local nursing school. It has been wonderful. Mom has 1 person (agencies could not guarantee the same person every time) and I pay her directly. I was with her for the first introduction and she stopped by the next day during lunch and joined mom in the dining hall. She has been invaluable because she concentrated on making friends with mom (talking about nursing - mom was a nurse) and things that ladies talk about. She has been wonderful because mom doesn't tell me everything the way she tells the friend. I also have a Alexa show 8 so I can drop in and talk to mom. Seeing her face is helpful. I use it to put calendar events on it like when meals are served and if there is something mom might like ( happy hour and music). Mom looks at the calendar all the time and is very comfortable. NOW, this is what I think she thinks about me living with her: I kept her on a schedule with meals and meds, I prepared her food because she didn’t do a good job and it tasted bad so she didn’t eat it, I kept the house a good temperature and she wanted it hot. This place is wonderful because she isn’t arguing with me and she gets to set her own schedule. I keep a small panty for her (nuts, apricots, ensure, energy bars). It took 2.5 months for mom to began to walk around the facility and now at 10 months, this is her home and she goes to movies in the evening in-house and enjoys her tablemates. The “friend” is wonderful and gets with mom at least weekly but I let them arrange it according to mom’s schedule or her schedule. What is wonderful is that this lady has a business license after she retired. She bills me through her business and because she is a RN, she evaluates mom as needed and is her advocate. My suggestion: get your mom a friend, it made a world of difference for my mom and my mom is a painful introvert who does not make friends easily.

If your mother has money for Assisted Living, would she consider staying in her home with in-home caregivers? Have seen this done for relative and neighbor. Ran $5,000 month for 24/7 care. Maybe there's something like this where your mom's house is located.

The agency owners hire women from their home towns in Poland, the Phillipines, do the paperwork for work Visas. The workers earn money to send home to their families. Three workers are assigned to cover week days and week-ends. They do round the clock shifts, for 2 or 3 days, living in, sleeping over, cooking meals, bathing, dressing; some do light cleaning on their own initiative. Agency covers liability insurance, hiring, call-offs et al. If only daytime care needed, worker puts mom to bed at 7pm. At 7am, new worker arrives to get patient out of bed, cook breakfast etc.

Standard U.S. Home Health Agencies are costly because of overhead, charge upwards of $26 an hour, worker gets $15 an hr. Often, workers are not dependable because of difficulties holding down any job.

Maybe you could set up a meeting with the director of nursing at the AL and have brother and sister present. Explain how your mom is having difficulty adjusting. I think having a third party professional present to explain how adjustments for new residents is and how long it can take might simmer brother down.
when a parent moves there is always a 3-6 month adjustment period. My dad refused to leave his room for activities at first but finally adjusted and loved going to bingo. Many times to stop the whining, tears and fighting a sibling will just capitulate and think it’s the path of least resistance to move them out. They are thinking with the heart and not the head. Please don’t let him move her. Schedule the meeting route first.

This is to the Editor of Aging Care:

People are using too many abbreviatons in their Q&A. Sometimes it takes me
5 minutes to understand what they mean. Not everyone of your readers is
familiar with this sort of texting.

Solution: Post some sort of chart at the beginningof each Q&A that explains what the most commonly used abbreviations mean.

Now if your mom is deemed mentally competent, she can leave anytime she wants--only IF she is competent to make her own decisions.

Lou, there s an extensive glossary on the site. I have often asked admin to make it easy to find on each thread. For some reason that has never been done.

I know how frustrating it is, I was a newcomer once here too. I now am on a another site and trying to figure out the terminology. It makes you think about leaving the site and not returning, doesn't it?

This is the link to that glossary: (as soon as I find it, I will edit this response)

Link to frequently used terms

https://www.agingcare.com/articles/common-caregiving-abbreviations-and-acronyms-435589.htm

He can not. He does not have POA. Please inform her AL about this fact.

So first of all even if he can in the end it is going to be very hard for him to move her out of her AL and take her home with him without the DPOA/MPOA, your sister being involved. She is the first person the facility is going to call when they get wind of this. But after reading more of the details below I’m wondering if perhaps this was just his way of getting her off the phone. Maybe she was complaining and saying she wants to go home (we don’t know what that means to her) and he just said I will come get you tomorrow if that’s what you want to pacify her. Maybe he actually thought about, discussed it with his wife and maybe not. Your mom likely makes notes about the things she wants to hear during these conversations not necessarily what was actually said.

As already pointed out adjustment, for everyone, can certainly take more than 30 days. It does alarm me that your mother is now mistrusting you and your sister wether it be because your brother is actively trying to sway her or because she is talking to too many people who aren’t on the same page and coming out with what suits her for the moment. Ultimately she made the original decision that “she did not want to live with any of her 7 children” and elected to go to this AL, I have no doubt this was a process and she needs to be reminded that this was the option she chose for good reasons. The facts haven’t changed, she can’t live alone and she doesn’t want to live with any of you. She was part of crossing the place she is in and if she leaves she will loose it, she may or may not have the option to return to the same facility but not likely the same apartment/room. The cost of moving somewhere else and getting the help she needs needs to be considered as well by everyone.

Your brother may not participate, that’s his choice but maybe a meeting with all 7 siblings, difficult I know but it is the virtual meeting age, to discuss the facts and all of these issues. It should probably be led by your sister POA because she has been and will be the point person but you both need to be open to your siblings questions and views. The point being making sure everyone is on the same page and guiding your mom, giving her the right facts, in the right direction. This may be the only way to help her settle in or find out if it’s the wrong facility but even if one or two siblings aren’t on board with the rest understanding the facts it should be easier to keep her in the right place. She made the choices for her DPOA and back ups for a reason and I’m guessing that wasn’t a recent choice so deep down she trusts you and your sister. It can be hard for a mother to remind one child that she “chose” another so it may not be surprising that she sways depending on who she is talking to.

If your brother is moving her in, is he providng her a health care nurse or help while he is not there? What about vacations? She may need 24 hour care. It does take time for people to get comfortable in new surroundings, especially if dementia is present (even just the starting of it). My dad had to be moved from independent living (which provided meals so it was great) to a nursing home after a fall and rehab. He kept saying he wanted to go home, and my sisters just thought he hated his new place. What they didnt want to hear or research is that home is in the head and heart, not a specific place. He has memory issues and dementia has gotten alot worse this past year due to Covid-19. I am his POA and when I asked for help finding a different place neither helped, so they had their chance. They blame me for his condition and we no longer speak unless it is me updating them on anything medical with my dad. Sad this divides families, but I can't deal with them bashing me with every thing I do for my dad. His care comes first.

Yes, if he has permission from your sister with POA.

I can understand mom not wanting to be there as they are all understaffed and not a fun, warm loving place to be.

It sounds to me Ike mom has changed her mind about not wanting to live with any of her 7 children.

Im sure you would too if you've ever spent a night or two in a facility.

Your mom has tried it for a month already and deffiently not happy living there.

Seniors do so much better and are so much happier and live longer being able to stay in their own home or move in with a loved one.

If there are 7 children and one wants to let mom live with him abd she wants to, then I think it's awesome.

You might call a family meeting to discuss the move and what is needed to help your brother help your mom live the rest of her life as happy as she can.

if mom can't afford to hire Caregiver help then the other 6 children she each donate money to the cause.

If your Dad was in the Military. You could check on getting help for mom as they provide spouses up to 30 hrs a week care and a few other things.

I think it's commendable of your brother Andover the compassion he's showing for his mom that has nursed and taken care of 7 children and now it has come the time to reciprocate.

Prayers

God Bless him!!! Thank GOD he is getting her out of this horrible place. You have no idea how bad it can be.

Instead of fighting your brother, why don't you HELP them. He can get in home care for your mom when they are working. Check into IRIS which is a great program to help with financial issues if they need help there.

I regret EVER letting them put my sister into one of these places. The lack of care and abuse is off the charts! My sister died during the lock downs because of it.

Unless your mom has been deemed incompetent in a court of law, she can do whatever she wants.

If your mom willingly moved in, she can willingly move out.

POA only has the ability to intervene if the grantor is declared incompetent. This could be by 2 doctors, stated in the POA or it would need to be through the courts. Taking away anyone's autonomy is serious business and you have to read the documents carefully to understand what authority really exists.

If she wants to go and they want to have her, help them insure her safety, maybe hiring companion sitters while they are at work, maybe getting a housekeeper or a in home chef to prepare meals.

There are ways to make this work if all parties, your mom, brother and his spouse in this case, are willing.

From my personal experience some doctors are way to quick to pull the facility trigger.

Y not! He should be able to. If she’s not happy there and possibly being missed treated . Or She may not like the place and it’s ok. At least someone wants her and looking out for her best interest. She may do much better. They could have someone look in on her for few hours. To me it sounds like u want her to stay put verses her feelings .

Good Lord you sure did open a can of "honest opinions" If your brother and his wife have so graciously welcomed YOUR MOTHER into their home, why can't you find a way to honor her wishes and be of help instead of criticizing them? Good grief!

In my humble opinion and said with love, there are a so many negative posts here especially about the brother whom we know nothing about. I really don't think we have the right to assume what he will do and not do and if he is a bad or good person. I understand that so many of us have had bad experiences with family and elderly facilities. I would like to gently advise From The Valley for you and the other family members to try to work with wherever your Mom ends up. Everyone has their own opinion and when it comes to taking care of people we love our opinions get even stronger and sometimes more forceful. All of this will not help your Mom though. Having her family at odds could stress her out so much that it could advance any cognitive decline and even illnesses. If she is forced to chose sides or if she makes a decision where it appears she is forced to choose sides that is not good for her either. She raised all of you kids and just needs all of you to show her that you love her and care about her. Your brother not answering of course is not helping this situation. But if she does go to your brother he will be taking care of her after work and on weekends - that is a lot when you work. If everyone pitched in and helped out of love - maybe it could work out better than what is anticipated. I am not saying by any means that is answer but if he is allowed to pull her out I would rather see my Mom and take care of her as much as I could at my brothers than to refuse to go there. Not seeing her and making sure she is safe and cared for could hurt your Mom in so many ways. And in the end it could hurt you too. This is the kind of situation that can tear families apart sometimes forever. I wish only the best for you and your siblings and especially your Mom. I know this is so hard. Hugs and love to you.

WOW, some nasty posts here.
Sonce you are secondary POA, you are limited to the fact that you can only step in should the primary POA be unable or not wish to.
As far as your mom wanting to leave, this is something that is normal for many especially when we get older. While you mom wants to go home it may not be in her best interest, however, the doctor may or may not be able to have a say in where she should be AL or in a family home setting with 24/7 care such as with her children.
You could see if mom is competent but that would come at a cost financially, emotionally etc.
POA is supposed to act in the best interest of the one who they are caring for.
Eventually, it may come that she takes a horrible tumble and be severely injured or worse, where the doctors will decide what is best by declaring she is unable to care for herself, but honestly I don't think you have much say. :-( you could check with an elder attorney and if the doctor says she can't live alone, you may have small opening to have her stay in AL.
1 month of being in an AL facility isn't enough time to make new friends, become accustomed to their schedules and so on. The one thing is that if you take a person from a familiar setting and move them to something different they become confused and agitated.
I wish you all the best as it is going to be a rough ride.

DPOA and POA ate not interchangeable.