Should love ones assist mom to toilet when in wheelchair in LTC?

Ask the staff to teach you how to help her. Once family members are trained and supervised a few times, the family can and should help. Unfortunately, every facility and hospital is sort-staffed - and likely to remain so for many years. Please learn how to help your loved one when you visit. If a fall occurs, the facility will have those that observe the fall fill in paperwork.

Are you quite sure this is a long term care ?? Those services are included in LTCs as they are under Medicare regulations for same.
I think the person who described this as an a la cart AL or an IL with services for hire got it right.
Check your contract and see what it says. Please update us.

I read all the answers below. I disagree with the comments about the nurse should do her job and take Mom to the bathroom. Maybe the nurse was trying to save the patient money, because every little help given costs the patient a whole lot of money. Price the hourly cost of a nurse who makes $18, $27, $36 an hour. If a family can help Mom go to the bathroom, and doesn't mind doing the cleaning up of the patient, then they should do it and save Mom a few bucks. If it is so disgusting to help Mom, then spend your money to get her the care she needs. Maybe the nurse was trying to save the patient money? How do you all know that is not true? Toileting must be in the admitting papers, as well. I know most of this because I had my husband in a memory care facility after he fell and had Alzheimers. He didn't know he was to bathe, wash his hands before eating, or even how to wipe himself. Most of you condemned the nurse, when you should think the family maybe should just ask the management of the unit what all is included in the price, and if you agree and not agree with what care Mom should get.

statewise: Assuming that your mother is in Independent Living as you state in your profile, she is responsible for her own toileting. Also responsibility is not an element in the fact that some elders do fall a lot.

The patient’s dignity needs to be respected first and foremost. Think how you would feel having visitors, family or otherwise, pulling your pants down, wiping you, etc. PATIENTS FIRST! Dignity preserved. Not enough thought or training goes into that concept. They are proud human beings with modesty and feelings. Find a facility that puts them first.

Funny, I was always willing to help my loved one. I agree with everyone, you don’t have to, and they are being paid to care for them, but I didn’t mind.

I don’t think the nurse was trying to make anyone feel bad, it was just a comment on the sign of the times and I think she’s right. If everyone was willing to care for their loved ones there would be no nursing homes, LTC, ALF, etc.

now I know that’s “big wishful picture thinking”, not everyone can, or is willing, and that’s the real reality, so don’t y’all come down on me - i was a caregiver for seven years for an elderly couple with dementia, arthritis, bad heart, and Lewy dementia Parkinson’s, and I have the broken body to show for it, so I can talk. I’m just sayin’…..

Not only is this comment to visiting families inappropriate , he/she is also assuming that the resident would want a family member to toilet them which may not be the case .

No. The facility is responsible. If short-staffed, it should be reported to the director. Always ask the staff for assistance where it is expensive to live.

OP your profile says that your mother is in Independent Living, so she would be expected to manage her toileting herself.

You ask “who will be the one who is responsible for her falling” if you help her. Old people fall very frequently, and unless there is very obvious negligence, 'responsibility' is not a big issue. Why are you worried about being ‘responsible’? Is this about financial liability? Or what?

Anytime my husband has been in a facility I have always helped him to the bathroom anytime I could because I was use to doing it at home. However, now that I am getting older (hopefully wiser), I now call for help due to the concern of one of us getting hurt. I am concerned the liability would fall back on us if one of us got hurt while I am helping him because their defense could be I did not call for help.

On the other end of the issue, it reminds me of what I experienced when my husband was in the hospital. He has Parkinson's and "most" of the time he can not even get out of a chair without some assistance. I was sleeping very near his bed and the rails were up. I woke up thinking a nurse had come in the room and realized my husband was standing on the other side of the bed in the dark. He was confused and resisted me trying to help him back to bed. I pushed the call button and asked for assistance getting my husband back into bed. The nurse came in and began fussing at me because I wasn't suppose to get him out of bed by myself. I told her he had gotten up by himself and I don't think she ever believed me.

I think that a better question is "Should love ones HAVE TO assist....etc". Because no one should HAVE to. First of all, many cannot do such transfers either well or safely. And an injured back could result in a suit.

I would mention this to the admins and I would tell them what occurred and tell them that if their aide continues to suggest this, some well-meaning but inept family member may injure themselves attempting such a thing, resulting in a suit for the facility.

A good response if someone is asked to do this is "Sorry, we don't feel safe attempting this".

I do help my Dad but would never expect any other visitors to do so. Ridiculous. I only help because it’s usually an urgent matter. If I waited for staff, he would not! Twice he’s not made it in time, I’m not cleaning that up for sure. This is what we’re paying the big bucks for!

They are paid for this care and service. That kind of attitude should be reported and stopped. That behavior makes me wonder how does she treat your loved one when you’re not there??

I agree with you; there are a lot of considerations, accountability, responsibilities associated with
" helping someone" in a wheelchair whether it's toilet or other needs.
Definitely call the facility staff to assist her ! This is for her safety ,well being and your or family members safety. ( People can injure themselves and patient trying to help them). Pay NO attention to any of the " comments" from such facility staff; don't even reply to them, simply walk out of room while they DO THEIR JOB, You can also if you like, speak with facility administration about said employees comment; the employee is not paid to defer duties to family.

Nobody is responsible for an elder falling, dropping her is a different story.

Facilities are being paid huge amounts of money to provide care, nuff said.

I did assist my mother to use the toilet in her assisted living. She wanted me to. Not something I ever thought I'd have to do. I didn't think of calling someone but see now that I should have for possible injury purposes.

There is NO way I'd do it for an acquaintance I was visiting. How ridiculous the nurse suggested you do it. Even though the lady is in a different facility I'd still let the director know about it. Even better if you know her name or can give a physical description and the day she was working.

That was very unprofessional and I would report her.

I was visiting a woman from my church whom I barely know. We organize visits so she has someone coming every day for a 1-2 hr visit.

Last time I was there, she needed her depends changed. The CNA came in and acted completely put out. Asked me why I hadn't 'seen to it'. Well, I am not family and I actually barely know this woman and felt that changing her was completely not my job.

The CNA grumpily called in someone to help her and manhandled this poor woman into a fresh depends. She didn't close the door, so I got up and stood in the doorway to give the patient some privacy. She was bare bottomed for too long as the aides fussed about which depends to use. I was embarassed and angry at the same time. They were rough with the patient and she kept saying "Ow, you are hurting me!" She is only 4 weeks out from a hip replacement that she had to have done when she fell out of her wheelchair at this facility.

I didn't say anything to her family--not knowing what to say--and the next Sunday in church it was announced that she had moved to a different care center. I was really glad to hear that. Evidently what I witnessed was not uncommon.

What happens when one of the people visiting trying to "help" mom does not do it properly and mom is injured?
Or the person with no training tries to transfer her and hurts themselves?
The facility is responsible for her care and her safety.
Technically it is not a nurse that is going to toilet mom but a CNA or other Aide.

I really hoped you reported that person. The purpose of AL and NH is that you have professional care and assistance.

Even though I believe in being polite and respectful to others, I honestly would not have been able to control myself from laughing in this ‘so called’ nurse’s face.

The fact that she stated that it was “sad” to call on her for her service is laughable!

The only thing that is ‘sad’ is that you had the misfortune of having this person as your mother’s nurse.

If she doesn’t want to be of service to others and do her job she should quit. She would be replaced in a heartbeat. There are many wonderful nurses that wouldn’t hesitate to do an exemplary job.

I am so sorry that you have experienced this. Report her to her supervisor.

Was it a Nurse (RN or LPN) or a CNA? The "Nurse" was out of line and I would report her to the Director of Nursing. Its a liability on the LTCs part to have a family member helping a resident especially when there is a transfer involved. Once my Mom entered an Assisted Living, I never changed her. I always called for a CNA. Thats what the 2k in care costs was for. Even if Mom is on Medicaid, her monthly income is going towards her care and the Nurses and aides should be doing that care. A Medicaid resident is should not be treated any differently than a private pay resident.

I find that people call CNAs Nurses. I have total respect for them, they do the Nurses dirty work but they are not medically trained. Their training covers maybe 2 or 3 months. For my DD LPN schooling took a 2 yr course and concentrated it into 13 months. She attended classes 5 days a week all day. Her RN took another 2 yrs. A Nurse with BS degree may go 4 yrs of college or 5.

In most places where my DD has worked, the scrubs are color coded. CNAs one color, LPN another and RN another. Always, badges should be visible telling you who they are.

I NEVER assisted my mother to the restroom in the NH.

The nurse is out of line

The employees at the facility should be helping your mom. That is literally the job that they are being paid to do.

No. When she needs help there should be zero expectation that visitors jump in to help, that's why she is living in a facility instead of somewhere else. It can actually be dangerous for outsiders to step in in these situations, even if the family member was once the primary caregiver the capabilities of your mother can change quickly, and the set up as far as grab bars etc will be different than what you used at home.