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My dad's caregiver who also lives at his house (she's not 24/7 however) wants to have friends or her partner over whenever she likes.


The only issue I have is that he has not yet had the vaccine (nor has she) and he is a high-risk population.


I don't live in the state so it wasn't until the other caregiver made me aware of this that I sent an email to let her know she can't have guests over.


Now she is very upset and sending me long messages in protest.


Do you think it's unreasonable to ask her to not have guests until he is vaccinated and his doctor gives clearance?

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Not unreasonable at all. She is an employee. She needs to keep your Dad safe. Maybe renegotiate in 6 months.
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I would say that having company over is a resounding NO.
Even if or when the caregiver is vaccinated she should not have guests over. This is not her home. This is her place of work and your dad’s home.

You are focused on her vaccinated status but what about her guests? What about the guests family? While it may be more difficult to get COVID-19 after doing vaccinated there is the possibility to still get one of the newer strains and you can still transmit the virus
When she is not working she can go visit her partner, her friends.
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I feel you made the right decision. The caregiver is the one who is unreasonable and she should know better putting your dad at risk.
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Cover and vaccinations aside....

Is this caregiver paid legally as an employee? How is her salary handled? Is she a tenant where part of her payment is room and board?

If not set up legally with an agreement and taxes etc withheld, you may be opening a can of worms unless done legally. She could file a complaint with the state department of labor.

If there is question about legality of the situation, contact an elder law attorney.
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sunbrooke Feb 2021
She has a care agreement and is a tenant separately. Yes, part of her hourly rate is withheld for rent. Gee all I need is one more thing to worry about.
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You better check that out. It is very likely illegal. If she pays rent then it is her home which has certain rights that go along with it. A landlord cannot dictate every aspect of a person's life.

The value of 24/7 care in my area is around 12k a month. You have a second caregiver from the sounds of it. Good. Does dad have 24/7 care with two caregivers? Does tenant have freedom to do what she wants always when not on duty? Or is she expected to tend to dad's needs when not on the clock?
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Does this previous post refer to the same caregiver? Did you ask/require caregiver to move in with dad in order to protect dad from covid?

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/protecting-senior-from-covid-with-caregiver-457911.htm?orderby=oldest
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NO! Sounds like you need to find another caretaker. It would concern me that she thinks its appropriate. She is getting paid to do a job!
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A point has been made that you are charging her rent. You may want to call the Labor board in Dads county and see if this is legal. From discussions on this forum, its not legal. From what I understand room and board is provided. They have to make at least minimum wage. Taxes and SS have to be deducted, with SS being matched by employer, and sent to the proper agencies. They only work 40 hrs a week. If more than that they get time and a half for ours worked over 40.

Not saying I am correct, just giving you what I have gotten from discussions on the forum.
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Oskigirl Feb 2021
Please don't practice law without a license. There are legal ways to deduct rent from someone's pay when they are provided with room and board. There are limits, but it is not illegal.

Now if the person is not being paid legally (with deductions etc.) that is a separate subject.
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That it is her legal residence, yes she can have whomever she wants come visit, unless she signed a contract that says she doesn't get to have guests at her home.

Obviously she should not have guests when she is on the clock but, her off duty time is hers to do with as she pleases.

If you can not trust her to not bring someone that is obviously sick into the house, then you can't trust her to take care of your dad and you should start eviction proceedings.

I do believe that it is illegal to withhold payroll to cover rent. It bypasses taxes and insurances, effecting her long term benefits from SS.

If you want the control to keep everyone but caregivers out of the house then you have to do it correctly and get 3 shifts. Sorry but, when you are fudging things this is the fallout.
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my2cents Feb 2021
Very good point: If you can't trust her about bringing in a potentially sick person, she shouldn't be trusted with dad's care anyway..
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An employee provided with room and board is different than a tenant. You say she is a tenant separately.

If it is not in the rental agreement, all you can do is ask.

If the rental agreement is month to month, you can change it in writing with appropriate notice, but what tenant would pay market rent with those kind of restrictions on use?

Here is a link on applying an employee's room and board to the minimum wage requirements. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/direct-care/credit-wages/faq
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If she is off the clock she should be able to have a guest in her quarters. Her quarters are her home.
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Jada824 Apr 2021
What if her living quarters don’t have a kitchen or bathroom?

Should they then be allowed to use clients kitchen & bathroom?

The main point of having a caregiver is for the client’s safety.
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No way...it’s not a party...she is at work. Not to mention even that everyone needs a Covid test & vaccine. Next thing she will bring alcohol & drugs & whatever else. Look for another caregiver. Hugs 🤗
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worriedinCali Feb 2021
She’s only work when she’s being paid. After that, it’s her home and her employer cannot dictate what she does in her private time ;)
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Don't take the chance. One thing leads to another. YOU are in control, not her.
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BurntCaregiver Feb 2021
Practivinglove, since we don't have actual slavery anymore and the caregiver isn't an underage child and sunnybrooke her parent, then SB really isn't in control of who the caregiver sees and where she goes off the clock.
In this line of work (especially with live-in help) families often make the mistake, and it's an honest mistake in most cases, of thinking that the caregiver's sole reason for living is to serve the needs of their loved one. It's important for people to not forget that being a paid caregiver is a job. I should know having done this work for almost 25 years. When I'm on the clock a family can trust that their LO will be well taken care of. They can trust that client's home and possessions will also be treated with respect and well cared for. When I'm off the clock that's when my work day ends. I will not take phone calls from clients or their families after my work hours are done. It automatically goes to voicemail. I listen to the messages and call back at my discretion if it's something important that I need to know to do my job.
If a family has good help that works well with their LO, don't come at us with the 'I'm in control' approach because this is what the most likely outcome will be. The caregiver will quit the client and go. Now in a situation like the one sunnybrooke has, the person 'in control' is out-of-state and the caregiver is a live-in. If she goes then a new one willing to live there will have to be found. Probably a stranger that the father and family don't know. Who knows how the father will get along with them? We don't have slavery or an indentured bond servants anymore so the family can't just go and buy someone then simply command them to make their LO's care their entire life.
Better to not take such an approach with with the help. Maybe a bit of compromise will work better for everyone.
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Really need more information about the work/board arrangement.

How many hours a day is she expected to work and does it happen to be the night time hours? If she is paid to work X number hours a day and is paid partly in cash and partly in free room - then there should not be visitors during her work hours. It's the same as you being at work in the office and your friends/partner dropping by for several hours a day. You wouldn't be employed long - you're paid for your 8 hrs a day. If she has the night shift with your dad, is she to be available as he needs things during the night? Or does she have tasks she is supposed to do for an 8 hr shift at night. First, sort out what she is supposed to be doing, how much you pay her with money and room, if those two things determine her pay.

If she gets a room in exchange for just being in the house with him, then she needs to be available to run when he calls. You can't, however, give a person a residence to live in and then exclude them from having company. You can make all people coming/going mask up, glove up and use lots of hand sanitizer. Even this person should be doing that when she is in close contact to dad. Especially if she goes out among other people.

The vaccine is probably NOT going to prevent everyone from getting it. More than likely, in my opinion, it will be like the flu - you may still get it but not a serious event. The doctor is never going to give clearance for people to just come and go. Guests need to respect dad's underlying medical issues and wear a mask when they enter from only God knows where. Keep in mind there are plenty of people in the medical field who do not mask up around others when they aren't at work - anyone can bring it into the home. To protect dad, you need protocol in place and everyone follows it or they don't come in. Include taking a temp - all supplies near an entrance and everyone uses them.

If there is a separate entrance far away from dad's areas, guests could use that and maintain distance from him. You can tell her no friends and then you push her to be away from the house to see friends. Weigh your options. Might be time to hire in=home healthcare people and end the live in arrangement.
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I think it's reasonable right now to ask that the caregiver not entertain friends in the house until at least your father gets vaccinated. Or limit her company to her partner only. Telling her no on that won't make the home safer for your father. If he can't see his girlfriend there then she will go to him. Either way there isn't going to be social distancing going on. Also, you could allow friends to come by just not in the house. Is there a garage? Or a basement? Or even outside? This can work too if they wear masks and social distance. As for the other caregiver being a snitch and telling you she had company, well I'd keep my eye on that one too. Do you know where she goes, who she sees, how serious she is about Covid precautions, and how serious every person she's in contact is about Covid precautions? My guess is no. So the whistleblowing caregiver shouldn't score any points from you or get a pat on the back.
I think your best bet is to communicate with her so there isn't any misunderstandings. You trust her enough to live in your father's house and take care of him, so there won't be a problem with the two of you talking this over.
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?!?!?!?

I expect it's different - it must be different! - where your dad lives, but here it's the law: no mixing of households. Not 'til... whenever it is. I've got so confused by the timetable for "lockdown easing" that I'm just bumbling on and assuming I will never be allowed to meet anyone socially ever again :(

But your father is (presumably) in an older age group and shielding, neither he nor the caregiver has been vaccinated, and it is OUT OF THE QUESTION that anybody crosses their threshold without a valid reason for being there. Party party party does not constitute even one valid reason.

What's her beef? I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to know what she thinks is unfair about this.
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Isthisrealyreal Feb 2021
Nothing was said about partying. This is a woman that has a rental agreement and a caregiver contract, two different contracts.

We are allowed to have guests in our home, Governor is asking for small gatherings and common sense.

You can not legally do what this family is doing, so they need to make serious changes or face big problems when this caregiver tenant goes to the authorities and complains about not being paid or being unjustly evicted.

This is a poster child for why we deal with employees per the law of the land. Really the employee has all the power because of the way things have been handled in this situation.
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Labor laws and rental laws, I don’t know anything about...but if this person is living in the house as part of a caregiver arrangement, that means the house is a workplace. Workplaces have requirements. Sometimes people may be asked to wear safety glasses, gloves, or steel toed shoes in a work environment. Caregivers in assisted living or a NH are not restricted in their own homes but would not be allowed to have visitors at work.

All this talk about slavery in this contact is nonsense. The employee is an at-will employee and can be fired or discharged for any reason. Employers can set whatever conditions they like. If the employee doesn’t like the rules, they are free to find another job.

Don’t bend on the rules and check to see what rental law says where you live. If there is no written rental agreement then don’t sign one now. Maybe the worker will get mad enough to quit, make a threat, or do something that justifies termination of employment. Then consult a lawyer - there are inexpensive services on line - to be sure any future hiring or rental agreements are properly worded to protect you and your parent.
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Oskigirl Feb 2021
Exactly. It's not slavery. She is free to leave to another job. And, sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but under the California Wage Orders, there are ways to deduct a portion of wages for room and board (there are limits, but it can be done). And you can evict tenants on short notice if they are doing damage to a property which bringing strangers into the workplace during the time of COVID -- even if it is during off hours -- is reckless.
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I have a live in housekeeper. She is allowed to have visitors in her living area during her off hours and on days off. She works an eight hours per day, 5 days a week. She is not allowed to have guests in the family parts of our home or during times we have multiple guests for social occasions. During the time of Covid lockdown she had to follow the Covid restrictions and did not visitors during lockdown. Our lockdown has been over for several weeks and we live in an area low Covid rates and high Covid vaccination coverage.

Our housekeeper has a legal contract that meets federal wage and hour laws and applicable state laws. It illegal to give room and board without appropriate pay. It is considered slavery to not provide pay. She has paid vacation, holidays off, health insurance and other employer paid benefits. She has taxes and Social Security withheld and we pay the workers comp, employer portion of social security, and unemployment insurance.

Our housekeeper is a good employee and we trust her completely. Treating employees well results in good employees and a pleasant home. We have a monthly meeting discuss any issues and to set the schedule if either of us has appointments that need to be accommodated. The
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Isthisrealyreal Feb 2021
Braggart! 😁 just kidding, kinda, just jealous.
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? Isthisreallyreal - All I've seen the OP post is that she has asked the caregiver not to have guests. What can possibly be illegal about that? What else is the family doing?
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Isthisrealyreal Feb 2021
She is working her and charging her rent. However, they are two separate contracts, yet they are taking hours of work in lieu of a payment. That is illegal.

You can not dictate what an employee does on their own time.

You can not rent someone a home and dictate how they utilize the space that they pay for, after the fact. Obviously bringing a business into a residential space would be pushing the limits of zoning and can be stopped. She wants to tell a renter that she can not have anyone over to visit, including her partner.
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There is still a pandemic going on with different variants of the virus in multiple states.

My 98 mom has a live in caregiver who was there only because there had to be someone there 24/7. Nurses/aides would go there every day for 8 hours/day and this caregiver would go out every day & see her family, etc. and occasionally have her granddaughter & daughter at the house. She lives in the basement but there is only 1 bathroom, 1 kitchen all upstairs.

Fast forward to Dec31........my mom caught covid from her & almost died. She still hasn’t been able to come home & the woman is still living in her home & entertaining family there.

Until his doctor gives clearance there should be no unnecessary visitors in his home. His safety should be the main concern.

As an FYI ....my brother is the one with DPOA who made all these decisions & not me.
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You can offer accommodation as part of a salary and benefits package, tying the apartment into the job; but withholding pay as a rent charge seems an odd way of going about it, and in any case that is indeed a separate issue. The straightforward point is whether it's reasonable to *ask* the caregiver not to have guests for the duration of the Covid risk. How can it be unreasonable, let alone illegal, to ask? The OP hasn't issued any threats or warnings to the caregiver that I can see.

I suppose a lot might depend on the wording... Sunbrooke, when you "sent the email to let her know she can't have guests over" what exactly did you say?

There is also the point that there is another caregiver present, one who was at least annoyed enough to tell the employer about the visitors. It's not unreasonable either to expect your co-workers to behave responsibly, or to ask your employer to protect your wellbeing by making your workplace as Covid-secure as possible.
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Isthisrealyreal Feb 2021
You can offer room and board as part of the compensation package, however, she has said that it is 2 different contracts and they withhold payment for hours worked to cover rent. So that obviously is not what has happened here. It is illegal to under pay for hours worked.

This is not her work place 24/7, yet the family is trying to dictate her actions as though it were. You can't have it both ways. She didn't ask, she informed her that she could not have guests over.

She pays rent to live there, that makes it her legal residence, meaning that she can have visitors. She can not be told that she can not have visitors.

How do they know what the other caregiver is doing on her time off? She could be behaving badly and is a total risk of bringing the virus into the house hold and infecting her client.

Quite frankly, if the family is concerned about exposure then they need to provide PPE. Have a protocol for what is expected before entering the home and what is expected while in the home around dad. In the tenants private quarters, they have no say because she pays rent.

One of the problems that I see is that you have one employee accusing another and nobody to verify if any of it is true. This situation is a boiling cauldron in my opinion. Who wants to work with anyone that "tells" on you and you are reprimanded for their report by a boss that is not around.

I would rather have the partner coming over then have my caregiver who knows where with who knows who. Just my opinion.
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This whole situation is more than I would want to deal with as a caregiver or a rent paying resident in the house. I would be looking for another job and residence with one legally written contract. This is not a do it yourself project. Get an attorney to draw up the contract following Federal Wage and Hour laws.
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gladimhere Feb 2021
It sounds like this caregiver is just one step away from prison isolation. Solitary confinement, slavery...
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No it is not unreasonable. You are protecting your father and her actually. This is the problem that is causing the virus to continue, people are not making the best decisions for themselves and others. The elderly definitely need a caring circle to protect them. As they age, they may not able to make the best decisions for themselves. That is when caring others should step in (family, friends, neighbors, medical team, etc). Don’t feel unsure or allow others make you feel unsure or guilty about making the right choices for your dad. If he is among the high risk, then protect him using all your knowledge He needs you !!!!! Many doesn’t take this virus serious. Don’t let your guard down protecting your dad to please someone else feelings. Continue to be that daughter he needs. He needs you more than ever before. All around us , rules and the norm of how we normally do things is having to be rewritten due to the pandemic. She should understand. Legal advice is always helpful to assist how to go about with carrying out your decision. At the end, it’s all about protecting your dad.
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You are not unreasonable, not in the least. Do you really have to deal with this person? Maybe you could find someone else.
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gladimhere Feb 2021
She is not working 24/7/365 she lives there too.

Would you even think about renting a place where the landlord told you that outside visitors are not allowed? Or you are not permitted to leave the room?
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Thanks for the previous post Glad.

So, the caregiver was living with her boyfriend and now is live in with you, correct? When she did not live in your home, you contacted her boyfriend about CDC guidlines and tried to dictate his life. You overstepped major boundaries and had no right contacting him.

So, based on those actions, you would not be able to claim a room and board credit or "rent" because CG lodging is for the employer (your) benefit not the employee.

So, you do not want boyfriend to come to dad's house. Does that mean you are okay if she goes back to his apartment during her time off? If not, you are violating alot of labor laws and owe CG quite a bit in back wages.
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Isthisrealyreal Feb 2021
My question is, how does she know what the boyfriend is or isn't doing? Is this the other caregiver causing issues by giving information or what.

Because I can't for the life of me figure out where someone in a different state gets this kind of information.
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Sounds like you should consult with an attorney who is well versed in your state's landlord/tenant and labor laws.
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I don’t think this is unreasonable at all. In fact I don’t think she should have visitors at all. She is working and if it was in another setting like a nursing home she would not be allowed to have visitors. Just because she is in a private setting does not mean you get to do what you want. Also you do not know the people she is having in and that is not safe for your dad. Just my opinion
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gladimhere Feb 2021
She is not working 24/7/365 she lives there too.

Would you even think about renting a place where the landlord told you that outside visitors are not allowed? Or you are not permitted to leave the room?
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Absolutely not unreasonable.
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I think once he is vaccinated - if she too can get vaccinated - it may be good for him to have more social stimulation. The partner would have to have been vaccinated too and still practice social distancing. However, I don't like that she is pressuring you. That's maybe a red flag.
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This a sticky situation and I would err on the side of protecting your dad. I can't determine, from your comment, how visitors affect your dad. Are they in his area or other parts of the home. Another issue, is how trustworthy the caregiver's visitor's are. As your dad requires this type of care, I would think he is not in a position to take care of himself, let alone protect his belongings. This is a slippery slope, in my opinion. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Cameras in the home might be an option, so that you could at least have eyes on what's going on.
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