Should adult children be expected to pay for final burial costs?

tam1046, this is an amazingly serendipitous forum. You asked a straightforward question about whether adult children should be expected to pay for a parent's burial costs for which there were lots of good answers and apparently that's helped your mom's decision to plan and prepay for her burial. But we also got into discussions about family stresses and dysfunction arising from a parent's aging and increasing need for care. In both our cases, our parents (your mom and my dad) are probably in the best places they can be, but some of our siblings are resentful and have decided to not only stop communicating with the caregivers, but also have pretty much stopped communicating with the parent, let alone actually traveling to visit the parent. Rational thought is lost to total dysfunction, unless, of course, their thinking is more about our parents spending their inheritances rather than our parents' well-being, in which case it actually is rational, but sad.

Like your brother, I had to focus on my dad's well-being and had to stop trying to appease siblings who did not help and instead only questioned my actions while refusing to believe any answers -- I simply did not have the time or energy to appease them while providing my dad's care. Like your mom, my dad (and mom) lived their lives helping their children, even when they were elderly and it was hard for them to help, and now some of them go on cruises and travel far and frequently, but never or almost never to see our dad.

Thank you, tam1046, for your kind words and the understanding you've gained by observing the care your brother provides your mom. I suspect some of your insight comes from being an RN -- all the nurses who've helped my dad and me have been great.

I feel that anything that my brother does to try to appease the other 3 siblings who dislike him, falls on deaf ears. It is hard on him (even though he says it doesn't bother him) to have his brothers and sister feel that way about him. He focuses on what the most important issue is, which is the care of my Mother and what SHE likes and does not like and her happiness and comfort. The other 3 siblings, sometimes I have no idea as to when and where they lost their sight and prespectives regarding my Mom. As people in general, they are all about me, me, me, which is sad considering all of what my Mom made her life about, which was her children. She bent over backwards all her life for her children. I wish for a minute they would stop and recall this and change their attitudes regarding coming to see her and communicating with her in her later in life years, before it's too late to do anything. In the end, all of their current behavior will all be for naught. I totally understand bicycler's post, you hit the situation right on the head, I feel for your situation. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Hang in there and hats off to all of your time and care for your father. Very admirable.

Funeral costs are so high even when doing a simple Orthodox Jewish funeral: simple unadorned pine box, body wrapped in a shroud. But then come such things as the cemetery is required to vault the graves (most likely due to the geological necessities) and then there are all the state added requirements - I honestly don't recall them. The gravestone at least comes about 10 or 11 months later so that's not an immediate add on. As I said previously, we pre-paid it. It took us a few years of depositing the money every so often. At least at the very end the funeral home did not add on the additions because of inflations to our last payment.

According to one website, the variation of allowed limits from state to state are between 5,000 USD to 15,000 USD. I believe here in CT it is even lower than 5,000 USD.

tam1046, your unfortunate family situation sounds all too familiar. In my case, I'm the "evil" brother, but I was the one to suggest a family meeting with my 7 siblings of which the 4 who thought I was evil did not respond to the idea. Those 4 rarely visited our dad after my wife and I moved him into our home 4 years ago and only one of those 4 has visited him (just once) since I moved him to a memory care facility 9 months ago. But those 4 were the ones who asked me to provide the guardianship and conservatorship reports I filed with the court -- I sent them copies even though I was not legally required to do so and they gave me absolutely no feedback on the reports and did not even thank me for providing them. Luckily, my dad rarely remembers any of them, so their absences don't distress him at all. Most often he thinks I'm his dad, but sometimes I'm one of his brothers, and less often he sometimes knows me as his son. Unlike your mom, I don't think he's happy, but he is safe, comfortable and seems at least content, if not at peace.

Back to your original question of whether children should pay for a parent's burial -- a few years ago, before I became my dad's guardian and conservator, I suggested to my 7 siblings that my dad's assets should be used to pre-pay at least some of his future burial expenses. Only one of the 4 siblings who regard me as evil responded and as my dad's trustee she opposed the idea, so I didn't pursue it further at that time, but now as his conservator it's back on my to-do list, along with a 1,000 other things.

Blackhole:

You are so right about the burial prices being out of reach for a growing number of families.

Also you are right about the dead parent, sometimes, unrealistic wishes, for the funeral and burial.

My cousin's father wanted a two-person walk-in mausoleum. 

They simply could not abide by his wishes because the price tag was: $120,000-$585,000, just for the mausoleum.

My cousin, an only child, feels guilty about that, but I do not think he should. The father's wishes were unrealistic, and if that is what he really wanted, he could have and should have pre-paid.

The three siblings who believe that your bother took your mother for his own financial gain is likely trying to gain even more by asking for money from them to pay for their mother's final expenses. If he understands that, then why is he trying to begin WWIII by asking for this money. Has he been one to seek to boss his siblings around?

Thanks so much for all of your responses. Family meeting sounds very reasonable with reasonable siblings, which is not the case in our family. 3 out of 5 siblings do not speak with the brother that is caring for her, which little do they realize is only hurting my Mom, by limiting contact with my Mom because of my brother. You see, they feel that my brother took her far away (from MN to FL) for his own personal and financial gain. I happen to be the only one who has spent enough time around my brother and my Mom and know that he is taking very good, kind care of her. The other's have visited once since she has been (going on 4 years) here in Florida and spent limited time with her due to their hatred toward my brother. They are not seeing the day in and day out of all the care he gives to her. I'm an RN and have a lot of experience with caring for older adults. So many parents would be so lucky to have the care my brother gives to my Mom. My Mom's only wish is that her other children would understand and accept that she is happy in Florida and at peace. As hard as it was for her, she has recently stepped up and has begun to make the final arrangements regarding cremation, burial plot, and monument plans and provided payment. I now realize how hard it is for people as we age, to start realizing their own mortality as they age and plan for end of life decisions and planning as to not leave the financial burden on her children. As hard as it is to accept our own mortality, it is the responsible thing to do.

tam1046, thank you for providing additional information to help us understand the situation better. In answering your primary question, I still think, like most others, that it makes sense and would be wise for your mom to plan and pre-pay her own funeral expenses. But often historical family dysfunction and dynamics combined with the stresses of aging and care giving, result in misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and less than sensible decision making. If at all possible, I urge you to initiate having a family meeting, or two, or three -- in person is preferable but telephonic is better than nothing, and with a professional mediator if it is likely that such meetings will otherwise become immediately accusatory and overly defensive. If your mom is reasonably competent, she should participate in at least one meeting or part of it, but you and your siblings should probably allow some time to talk things out among just yourselves, as well.

As I understand it, your mom is currently legally competent but does have some physical incapacity and needs some assistance (incontinence, transportation, etc.), e.g. a level of care that would cost her $3,500 to $5,000 monthly in an assisted living facility. Most importantly, you said she is "happy and at peace." Based just on that limited information, it seems likely that an investigation by Adult Protective Services would result in finding that her living/financial situation is good and not at all abusive.

Maybe your brother could provide your mom's care for less or even for absolutely no financial compensation, as many adult children do, but in your family meeting you should discuss what is fair for him and wise for your mom, given that she may need to apply for Medicaid in the future when her level of care exceeds what your brother is capable of providing, e.g. a level of care that will cost $6,000 to $12,000 per month in a facility. Whatever your brother is charging your mom now or in the future, it should be via a contract/caregiver agreement that conforms to Florida's specific Medicaid rules.

I can see how prices can get out of control. One is grieving and then all the arrangements need to be made. Just picking out the casket can be emotional. My Dad would have been ok with just a pine box.

I could have cut back on the Mass cards as I realize with each generation they became less and less popular. The church had printed out a very nice handout with a photo of my parent on the front. I really didn't need a signature book, but I know those can be helpful if a lot of people would be attending the service.

I also didn't have any reception afterwards... I was just too exhausted to even think about having one.

Funerals can be as cheap or expensive as you want. I checked not long ago and in California you can get a person cremated for as little as $650.00. Cremains are returned in a cardboard box. You can scatter the cremains. Have the service at someone's home or in a park, make it a potluck if you need to. If in a park, you will need a special use permit. If you don't have any money, just leave the body, the soul is gone anyway, with the county and they will take care of it. You don't see a lot of bodies laying around, someone is disposing of them. There is a cemetery near me that has a beautiful rose garden. For $350.00 you can scatter the ashes there. If you want the name on a plaque it is additional.

My late sister-in-law was a quilter and they wrapped her cardboard box with her favorite fabric and put her in her spot at the cemetery. I felt you CAN take it with you.

If you have money, the sky is the limit.

Wow, isthisrealyreal. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

My mom died with no pre-paid arrangement and no written wishes. She died suddenly but not totally unexpectedly — if that makes any sense.

I was not the only stakeholder in Mom’s life, but I was her only biological child.

I had to think fast and (initially) front all the money. Ultimately, no one was 100% happy with the arrangements I chose. INCLUDING ME. 

And the price tag is nauseating. What a racket. Simple cremation costs entirely too much. Then the prices escalate from there.

At the same time, I totally understand the “ostrich routine” that the old folks pull. Don’t want to have an uncomfortable convo. Don’t want to admit that their Exit Fantasy is outside of the family budget. Now let’s factor in the faith-based shoulds and shouldn’ts. 

UGH.

If your mom wants anything besides being cremated then she needs to pre-pay and write up her wishes.

My nephew passed at 21 years old and my family had no money for anything, I offered to pay, told my brother to do some arraignment, nothing extraordinary and nothing over state lines, he calls me with the name of a FH and screams that it will cost about 25k. What? No, I'm not paying to sooth consciences, none of them had any contact for a couple of years and now they needed this. When I said that needed to be revised to a simple and cheaper service none of them would talk to me, 3 months later the Medical Examiner called me and said the family needs to do something or the state would cremate his remains and dispose of them, essentially flushing them down the sewer. When I left msgs for all 9 of them to this effect, it still took my brother 6 weeks to get me the paperwork to be able to do anything. I have a firm believe that if you don't want your remains to be handled this way, you better make arraignments, as families can get nutty when someone passes, obviously at 21 who would but his dad just went away, I guess he thought if he didn't deal with it, it wasn't true. However, when we had the celebration of life, he didn't even show up and his mom found out on the internet by finding his obituary. Long story to say let her know what can happen if there is no arraignment and no money with siblings at odds. Let it be her choice and leave it there. 

I had my nephew cremated and his remains separated into enough portions that his parents and siblings each received a bag with a note that said "Take me some place special that we shared together, remember the good times as you say good bye" all of his 7 siblings loved that they could do that privately and personally. My brother, nothing pleases him, so at least the kids were happy.

My mother did not have assets. Moreover, she could not have owned a pre-paid funeral and still been able to receive Medicaid so we (my siblings and I) bought it and put ownership in my name. I honestly don't know how anyone can have any assets left over after using everything up on health care! My mother certainly paid for my father's funeral expenses (even though he was cremated it was still a Jewish service as well as a Masonic service). She did have a gravestone and some of his ashes buried in her plot. By the time we thought it time to arrange for a pre-paid funeral for my mother, she no longer had the assets for that.

Since mom has the funds, and cognitively able to pre-plan her funeral, then its her responsibility. Last year, my husband & I brought my mom along to a funeral home to purchase our funeral plans.
My mom wanted be with my deceased dad (vet), so she chose a casket. We all wanted graveside services-simple. Since I had saved mom's income, she could pay the $3200 herself!

Do a pre-paid - she then will get to pick her own hymns etc - if she is unable then have whoever is POA do it for her with someone else [what for unnecessary items] - it is the person who dies whose estate must pay for the funeral -

My sister & I went together to do mom's years ago & we still have her with us - we picked a lovely urn with butterflies on it, then a few days later when I was visiting she pointed out 2 different people wearing shirts with butterflies on them so we think we picked it right

Here the laws says the funeral directors get paid first before any other bills - I guess too many asked for lavish funerals then couldn't pay so now it is often done up front

One earlier reply regarding the joint bank account mentioned that your brother could be made a signer on your mother's account instead of having a joint account. Florida does not allow this arrangement, according to our FL banker. My husband and I have this in IN; but when he opened an account in FL, the bank said only joint account owners could sign checks.
Regarding your initial question, if your mom doesn't want to pre-pay for specific funeral services, then her executor will be responsible for paying for them from what's left in her estate. If there's nothing left, IMO, whoever wants to make the arrangements will need to rely on the goodwill of the rest of you to chip in.
For that reason, if your brother hopes to get money from you for a funeral, he probably better start being friendlier to you, huh?
In my experiences with funeral homes, someone's going to promise to pay on a contract before any services are provided (other than maybe picking up the body). And the FH is probably going to want $ or a life insurance policy up front if they are suspicious that there are looming financial shortcomings.
Since your brother is joint on her account, he could write that check after her demise, assuming there's money left; but, since it will be his money then, he won't be legally obligated to use it for her funeral unless he signs the contract with the funeral home.

If I were part of investigating my brother, I will be cut off from seeing my Mom EVER! I don't want to risk not seeing her with the time on this earth she has left. My other siblings are aware and very unhappy about this whole situation, yet no one wants to be the one to investigate my brother and what he has been doing since he moved her from MN to FL just over 3 years ago. You are right in saying she is isolated from the rest of her family down there, though she states she is happy and at peace living down there.

Thank you sincerely for your feed back. I added a post which outlines her current expenses and what happened to the original $40,000 remains to be seen. When I was looking after my Mom's expenses here in MN, she gave me authority to deposit any moneys and pay her bills, I don't understand why a person has to be co-owner of my Mom's account. That said, the money in my Mom's account is essentially "co-owned" by my brother to put in or take as he pleases. I have tried to discuss this with my Mom and she does not want to discuss this as she gets upset that I am asking where all of her money has gone and is currently going. She has complete trust that my brother is on the up and up with her.

My Mom brings in Social Security and a Retirement Plan of over $2000 monthly. My brother takes $975 out automatically and transfers to his account for rent and food. The agreement was and should still be that the rent be divided 3 ways between my brother, his wife, and my mother. I am betting the family farm that she is paying for half of a $1600/month rent. I have tried to speak with her about this and she will not have it. Part of the $975 my brother is taking is for food as well (she eats like a bird). She pays for all insurance costs for a medicare part B supplement insurance and medication plan. She pays for all personal care needs and and any thing else she wants or needs. The person who commented is correct in saying she went through between $7000-$8000 since she has been there. Where it went and where the current $975 she pays my brother monthly is a mystery. He has said, when asked, that the money situation is between my Mom and him and no one else's business. Also she pays for supplemental Boost, incontinence products, doctor co-pays, special needs, such as a wheeled walker, shower chair, and any clothes (she is very frugal when it comes to new clothes or shoes). She does not require outside help. She pays for rental of oxygen concentrator and portable O2. She remains her own decision maker and relies on my brother regarding her money affairs. As I have also said before, with checking out cremation costs, cost of a monument we are looking at just under $5000, which she still has left in savings. She bought her plot years ago as to be buried next to her Mother and Father. Someone please help me sort through this puzzle. If she pays for all funeral expenses at this time, she won't be left with much money in savings anymore.

Children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents are for their children.

Since she has the financial means to cover her demise, it is up to her to pay for it. Adult children should save for their own futures.
Undoubtedly "funny things" are going on with her finances. Of course it's not moral, but "money should not be in a person's heart." (partial quote by Jonathan Swift)

Tam1046:

You said: [[[[[[[ "Funny things are going on with my mother's depleting savings every month, which is handled by my brother with whom she lives, siblings feel the same, yet don 't proach the subject with my brother. For some reason he is co-owner with my Mom's banking accounts and will not share information with other's as to where Mom's money has gone in a matter of 3 years, like over $40,000 to now under $17,000. My older sister is the executor of my Mom's estate, but does nothing but grumble. Any thoughts, anyone?" ]]]]]]

That is definitely a lot of money to be disappearing. If she is kicking in some money from her SS check, it should NOT be costing your brother that much to take care of her.

At her age, medicare will pay for most things, with her SS check covering the rest.

The executor of the will has no say over a joint bank account. The joint account overrides the will. All that money is your brother's money, if your mother dies.

If your brother has convinced her to put money in a joint bank account, he can move money out whenever he wants, and when she dies it is his. It overrides the will and does not have to be probated.

If your brother needs to write checks, he can ask for signing privileges only for her bank account. This way when she dies the rest goes back into her estate to be shared as expressed in her will.

Again a joint bank account overrides the will.

A lot of caregivers take their parent into their home to get expense money from them and to gain "undue influence" influence over the parent by creating a state of dependency on them for the parent.

They do this under the guise of caring and concern, when they simply want help with their own expenses or an opportunity to take extra money from mom.

Can you hire an elder care attorney. Then ask all your siblings to meet with him so he can tell you the best way to handle her money.

If not, after your mother dies, you will be able to ask for an accounting of all the expenses your brothers claims he needed to take care of your mother.

Again, no matter what your brother says, He likely does not need to draw down her savings to care for her. She likely eats like a bird and medicare will cover most medical expenses. Her SS can likely cover the rest.

Your brother sounds as if he may be engaging in financial elder abuse because he is also isolating her.

You might also contact your area protective services for the elderly and ask for an investigation.

Personally, I think any good parent should pay for their own burial in advance..

Alas some do not. Either they do not care enough to do so, or they do not have the resources

If they do not, there is always the inexpensive choice of direct cremation in which the ashes are not buried in a grave site with a head stone.

Shame on mama. Since things sound kinda shady and you aren't keen on helping pay, I'd tell your brother he should look into having mom donate her body to the local medical school. Very little if any cost, and depending on the school's rules for this, brother might get her ashes back.   I mentioned Wright State University's program here before, and I'll be doing this.   My ashes will be placed in a little cemetery in the woods right on campus. Voila, no cost to anybody other than a having my name put on a brick in the sidewalk there if  I want to spring for that, which I don't, lol.  

I assume mom still has an income, SS at the very least, so the money coming out of her savings is in addition to that. Whether this is a reasonable amt or not depends on her care needs.

$23,000 over three years comes to under $700.00 per month. This is not a huge supplement for making space for and looking after one's mom. It is entirely possible that they have an arrangement of which you are unaware. My MIL is completely unattached to her final arrangements, and views body donation as a good thing. We are working on that, now.

tam1046, you've gotten some good answers and I agree that your mom should prepay at least most of her funeral expenses. I'll add a couple of other thoughts.

First, your sister who is your mom's estate executor has no more say in this matter than anyone else because an executor's authority and responsibility begins only after death.

Second, you said your mom has been living with your brother for three years and her savings has decreased by $23,000 -- that equates to about $640 per month, which doesn't seem like much to me. But I don't know your mom's income, which should be part of the equation. And I don't know the level of care your mom needs/gets from your brother (and his family?) or amenities she is provided (i.e. a small, shared bedroom or a large suite for herself). At a minimum, seems like room and board in your brother's home could be worth around $1,000 per month to your mom and that value increases as the level of her care increases, e.g. up to the $20,000 per month that freqflyer mentioned. Others have mentioned these things and I think your siblings and you should consider the wisdom gained in their experiences. Hope this is helpful.

Your brother and aunt can think whatever they want about what the rest of you should pay towards your mom's final expenses. Unless there is some type of legal document that you have all signed, taking on this commitment, you are under no obligation to pay anything. Period. Sure, there may be hard feelings, etc. if you stick to your guns, but just because someone thinks you should do something doesn't mean you HAVE to.
As far as him being on your mom's bank account, etc. I don't really see where that is wrong, since she does live with him and I'm sure he has additional expenses due to this fact. However the fact that he doesn't want to share any of the financial information with anyone else would make me suspicious that he is taking funneling additional monies for personal gain, not all for mom's care, additional groceries and other household items, etc. If he's got nothing to hide, then he shouldn't have a problem being open about her accounts.
Just my opinion.

Yes she should pay as she has the money. Your brother can ask but you can say No! Plain and simple. If your mom is able to make her own decisions then can you speak to her about this?

I agree mom should pay for her own burial if she has the funds. I also agree that what you've said brother has spent doesn't sound outrageous. You need more information one way or the other to decide if your brother is taking money unnecessarily from mom. And I was also on my mom's checking accounts and investment accounts since I managed them. Mom had no capability to write checks or track her spending. I don't know how your mom's mental capacity is, but having your brother on those accounts is normal.