POA has denied me access to my mother's room at the nursing center. Can this be legal?

Momlover123, please listen to the judge and keep a compliant profile with the POA. If you don't, not only will you not be appointed, you will have a court order for no contact (Order of Protection). Defying the order for puree and giving table food would be gross neglect. Jumping into ambulances can get you arrested, yes. Don't do it. Try to control your impulses. Meds will help you.

If you devoted as much effort to helping the NH to look after your mother as you have been doing interfering with their difficult task, you would find the staff readier to welcome you and your mother better looked after.

I hope that with advice and support you will be able to comply with requirements so that your mother does not end up deprived of your company. A court does not lightly prevent an elderly woman from seeing her own child; it follows that the reason they are considering doing that is your history of disrupting your mother's care. You need to stop it.

You didn't break your mother's leg, no. But you insisted on manually handling her. She has arthritis, osteoporosis and at that time an old fracture. You do not have the expertise or the equipment to handle her safely. Can you really not see that what you did, with the best of intentions, was plain dangerous?

The incident in the ambulance is another case in point. Nurses accompanying a patient in an ambulance have enough to do ensuring that the journey goes smoothly. You were getting in the way, making their job harder and therefore making your mother less likely to have a safe journey. Why couldn't you just follow the ambulance and meet her at the hospital? Can you really not see that creating this kind of needless drama is, too, agitating and miserable for your mother?

People who have had one stroke are vulnerable to having more. Risk factors include over-exertion and stress, which lead to atrial fibrillation, which leads to clotting, which leads to stroke. If your mother has been put on puréed food, and given that it is unimaginable that you are being kept up to date on her medical condition, it sounds as though she may already have had a further event. Every time you create a scene or manhandle your mother, you are going to be endangering her to a greater or lesser extent.

No one is arrested for just wanting to see their mother. But you're not doing that. You're harassing the staff and endangering a vulnerable elder. Cut it out.

Visit your mother, spend your time comforting and diverting her, do not subvert medical instructions and do not disrupt NH routine. If you can manage those things instead, I hope that your mother will long be able to benefit from your love and attention.

Countrymouse, I have a feeling what you wrote is exactly what the Judge is going to say on Jan. 26. I'm just afraid that Momlover won't comply.

Momlover - is it at all possible for you to take a step back, take a breath and really look at how you are hurting your own chances for getting anything even close to what you want? To an observer you appear to be totally out of control and amping yourself up into doing further damage to your case. You have been given very good advice here - do yourself a favor and follow it. Jumping into the back of the ambulance, really? That says you have totally lost any kind of rational thinking in this situation. Get ahold of yourself before you are arrested and legally band from seeing your mother all together. If you really love your mom quit making this about you and what you want! If your poor mother is aware of this situation I'm sure you are only causing her more anxiety and agitation. Get a grip!

Re-reading your older posts, your mom has dementia, arthritis, osteoporosis and is a two person assist for toileting. That is a person who needs 24/7 care in a facility with young, strong, well-rested staff.

Either work with POA sister to get her into a better facility or visit with ice cream and treats. Most dementia patients in NH's ask to go home. It doesn't mean that it is what's best for them.

And wouldn't that be heart-breaking, Pam? Momlover, this is a hard thing to handle alone. If you have a true friend, ask that person to go with you, support you, and help you keep calm when the going gets tough.

Momlover123, I hope this helps: When a teacher has a student who keeps insisting they want to go home, how do you handle it?

Rainmom I didn't jump in back of the ambulance. I knocked to make sure it was my Mom after the two nurses lied to me. Ambulance transported told me to sit up frront, then nurse came down and said she was going to call the police if I didn't get out.

Oh dear. It sounds as if there are a lot of bridges to build in your relationship with the NH. But one thing at a time - concentrate on getting clear guidelines from the court about what you are and are not allowed to do, and stick to them like glue. Then later on, with luck and goodwill, you'll be able to get back on the staff's right side. I know that isn't something you'll particularly want to do, but if you're going to be around to help your mother you'll just need to. It'll be worth it.

Mom, you are not thinking or writing clearly. You need to get yourself some help before you can help your mom.

Momlover - sorry for the misunderstanding on my part regarding which end of the ambulance. However I would still say everything I said and suggested.

Momlover, give your Mom a rest, the poor woman must be so confused with all that is going on.... she doesn't deserve all this unrest that you are creating.

My husband begged and pleaded to go home, for months. He WAS home. I think we've explained that to you before.

I thought about your posts on the 35 mile trip to visit Mother in her NH this afternoon. Here are some of my thoughts:

1) You love your mother very, very much
2) You are very, very distressed at seeing your mother's decline in health.

OK, so far you are in the good company of many people on these forums. But there is more.

3) You do not seem to know even basic stuff about the illnesses/chronic conditions your mother has. You do not seem to know more now than you did in August. It doesn't appear (from what you write) that you care to learn more. -- You know it all now?
4) Somehow you are convinced that your mother's decline in health is somebody's fault. You don't seem to understand or believe the concept of "progressive disease." I would say you believe in this theory of "fault" and "blame" to the point of paranoia. (Not that I'm qualified to diagnose that, but it sure sounds like it to me.)
5) You insist that your sister's POA is not valid, and in spite of this being explained to you on this forum and by a court of law, you persist in accusing your sister of wrong doing regarding this document.
6) You blame your sister for your mother being in a nursing home. If only she'd listened to your advice and had a regular job instead of trying to be a landlord, her building wouldn't have been condemned and mother could have continued to live with her. You seem to believe that nursing homes can and will take in perfectly healthy people if they just don't have a place to live. No explanations from us will convince you otherwise.
7) It is (according to you) your sister's fault that mother is in a Nursing Home, but the NH is responsible for her being sick and getting sicker. Again, you reject the medically proven concept of "progressive" diseases, and you know there is someone to blame. Sorry. Sounds paranoid to me.
8) You are very passionate in expressing your beliefs, but not very well-organized or coherent. Hey, not a problem here, we'll reread things a couple of times and ask questions. Caregivers don't have to be articulate. But the notion of you representing yourself in a court case is simply incredible. Do you honestly think you are capable of doing something just because you want to?
9) This "I'm entitled and I can do it" attitude seems to be pervasive in your life. You think you can disregard what the NH staff tells you, what the ambulance driver tells you, what the POA tells you, and handle all by yourself a person with a disease you refuse to learn about. I appreciate your self-confidence but I'm afraid you are in way over your head.

Now you want "to find out how NHs work and how they and the POA can capitalize on my mother's death." This is pure paranoia on your part. Do you honestly think that the nursing home would like to hasten your mother's death because somehow they would benefit? Huh? They get paid for each day she is there. As soon as she leaves -- by death or any other way -- their income flow from her stops. From what you've said before Mother doesn't have a large estate to leave to anybody, does she? Do you honestly believe that the sister who lived with her for 30 years wants to see her dead for some personal benefit? Really? Really? And you want us to help you figure out what the benefit is? Oh my. I don't think that is going to happen.

When I got to NH today my mom said immediately, "Oh I'm so glad you are here! I've been sitting here in the hallway for hours with nothing to do." Well I knew she had just been wheeled into the hallway from a sing-along. Others were still being wheeled out. She wasn't lying to me -- this is just part of her dementia, to not have a sense of passing time. I didn't argue with her but I didn't encourage her belief in the negligence of her aide, either. "Well, I'm glad I'm here now, too! Let's go into your room so I can see how your flowers are doing."

I admired her plants. I admired the cute valentine decorating my sister did in Mom's room. I changed her doll out of a Christmas dress, to go with the valentine theme. She read the newspaper and commented on a few things in it. I comforted her about her need for two helpers to go to the bathroom. I wheeled her to the dining room and I met a new person at her table and I chatted a little with the two residents I already knew. I left them chatting.

My mother's dementia has definitely progressed in the nearly two years she's been in the NH. She was using a walker when she went in and is wheel-chair bound now. She is a two person transfer. But she is content. She is happier than she was two years ago. She is more active. She is where she needs to be. If my sisters and I see shortcomings we don't discuss them with Mom -- we talk to the appropriate staff person. Our goal is for Mom to be as happy as she can be where she is.

My advice to you continues to be what it has been.

1) Behave in such a way that you will be allowed to visit your mother freely.
2) Visit, with the goal of helping Mom make the most of where she is. Don't make her think it is a terrible place. Don't encourage her about "going home."

Jeannegibbs thank you for spending time with me, but I truly feel my mother is in an NH before her time and has lost valuable PT, OT, and Speech therapy to enhance her quality of life due to POA not exercising my Mom's benefits. She has been diagnosed and she is benefitting from all three after returning directly from the hospital as required. However, I noticed that her left hand is balled up tightly in a fist, but she was able to unball her left had and hold my hand for s long time. Her right foot with the full length cast on her leg is healing because it didn't hurt to the touch today. She ate watermelon and strawberry sundae from me recently and she really enjoyed both. She went to two events Christmas Eve and Christmas that inmproved her quality of life away from the NH and she was able to sit up for a long period of time even though the NH says she has no trunk control and won't sit her on the toilet. I feel I deserve to at least try to give my Mom's quality of life back to the furthest extent possible. My Mom is depressed and very unhappy at the NH. She begs to come home and this has been going on for over a year.

Countrymouse I need to clarify some misunderstandings you have though you give excellent advice: 1) My mother is left looking like an invalid and not a person with competency when I do not visit,so I am only trying to improve my Mom's quality to life and opportunity-yes she still has opportunity- to legally "age in place" in home and community in Hyde Park, Chicago that's wheel chair accessible and church members are already willing to help me a block away, along with family and friends. 2) Countrymouse you say I am manhandling my Mom and not complying to NH rules, however each time I took her out my POA sister and NH approved the visit but on 12/25/15 after the CNAs helped me with transport to and from the NH the nurse told me they would not help me Christmas Day because they were not responsible and my sister said they didn't want to because I didn't appreciate them (???) and my sister POA and her daughters whom my Mom, friend, and I were going to visit when not help to and from the NH to Ann's from Aurora to Chicago Christmad day and even my grown son would not help as they refuse improve her quality if life outside the NH that may just mean skipping a movie, video, social networking, etc. I try to teach them the value of life over material wants at this crucial time but they ignore me over material things and won't even schedule to visit my Mom unless I force my son and my nieces seem to have better things to do and other siblings are out of town, however my Mom's only living sibling in Kentucky from where my Mom migrated in the 40s wants my Mom to come home with me. 3) I do not have a history of disrupting this NH by far. I visited my Mom hour on end over the summer and I got along great until my sister POA started imposing her rights to POA on my visits and the nurses lying to me about my mother's care or refusing to tell me about my Mom's condition; such as pain medicines and dosage, weight, medical records, etc. I have been told that I can only see my mother from 12-5 pm by the SW with nothing in writing. Therefore, the NH has a history of disrupting family visits and disregarding patient's rights to see family. 4). I did not manhandle my Mom as the NH refused to help me with transport the day after, My friend and I did our best when my Mom's arthritis set in. 5). Who told you I jumped in the back of the ambulance. It's an outright lie. I knocked and was told yo sit up front after I said I was her daughter. Then the nurse that my sister POA said told her my Mom was unresponsive then told me to get out of the ambulance or she would call the police to get me out, so I followed the van in my 2015 Nissan Rogue my Mom❤️

Countrymouse and others concerned ,my Mom❤️ told me to get a car over the summer. I guess because she wanted me to be able to drive her away from the NH but my sister used her POA to stop me from bringing her home even though she. couldn't keep her when she was standing with assistance because her home was condemned due to neglect and refusing to get a living wage job. Freqflyer my Mom is begging to come home. Please stop telling me to let it rest because my Mom is miserable and losing her quality of life day by day. You can't possibly put yourself in her shoes as she is losing the will tomlive everyday in that place. Please stop trying to make that understaffed and underpaid employee N H a "home" my mother. It is not a family home got my mother. Mom wants OUT but the questionable POA is keeping her there. Please help me and stop sentencing my mother to depression and unhappiness. I thank the Lord who died for our sins for your concern if you are Christian.

Jeangibbs God bless you for your advice but my Mom is competent and she has a right to come home with me...bottom line. This is what's legal and moral.

Does the court that has already been involved in your mother's case agree that she is competent? This is a yes or no answer question.

Although actually, we can infer the answer. If your mother were deemed competent by the court, then her wishes would be consulted and would override any POA decisions. So. Where does that leave us?

Seriously, focus on keeping your mother company. Getting her to family events is less important than sitting by her and holding her hand. Railing against the unsatisfactory commitment of other family members is a complete waste of precious time. You are not going to be able to take her home with you. You are not going to be able to prevent her continuing decline, sadly. What you can do is improve her quality of life by being with her. The most important thing, the one thing you should be making sure of, is not to throw that possibility away by continuing to alienate others who have legal responsibilities for her welfare.

Momlover123, you are not listening to any of the advice given. We have all given you time and energy to help you see the forest for the trees, but you continue to think everyone else is wrong and that you are right.

There are too many of us experienced caregivers that can see what is happening here. And you need to stand back and let the professionals take care of your Mom. You sadly are doing a disservice to her with all the interfering.

I think that we have to assume that Momlover suffers from some sort of condition that prevents her from seeing what we are telling her.

Again I agree with Babalou. I've been coming to this site for three months now, a couple times a day. I have found the advice here invaluable and completely credit the wonderful people here for saving my sanity and getting me, and therefore my life, back on track. If I need help and advice I ask for it - and either accept what is said or not. If not, which is rare, I figure it out on my own and move on. I have come to recognize that not everyone does the same. There are a few that continually beat the perverbal dead horse. If they don't hear what they want to hear they argue, ignore, repeat and rephrase hoping I think, to finally get validation. In a couple cases it is clear the poster themselves have bigger issues than that of which they write. I'm pretty sure there is no way for the well intentioned here to actually say anything to help these people - and we become the person holding the stick beating a dead horse. I do not in any way consider myself the gold standard on how to give or receive advice. I can only do what I can do - which is true of everyone. In this case I can't do much beyond the advice I gave so it's time for me to move on. Momlover - I wish you peace and resolution. But more than that I wish you clarity and acceptance in this situation. If you can find the first, the second will fall into place.

i just found out my father was moved immediatly after i saw him a after he got out of icu. to another place without his former girlfriend-poa-medical- letting me know. infact she did this to keep us apart. She was mean and a bimbo and confused-problem with lies cnt keep truth and lies strait so it make no sense . the problem is my dad has always had a temper and says things he doesnt mean. your grounded forever-or until 30 a couple of days later all is forgiven. he wouldnt want her ms BIMBO who admitted to me that she remembers place datethey met it was 25 years ago mom only left dad 22. years ago. not because of his cheating-with her. sorry for off topic but she refuses to assist me in getting any med. info. from prognoses, to help him communicate, can i get the med poa revoked proving i know what he really wants. is she responsible for barrial?

want2bdadspoa, it would be better if your start your question as a brand new "question", not as an attachment to another question.

Your father has to revoke hers and sign it over to you if he wishes to do so.

Want 2bdadspoa I am having much the same problem as the POA and NH won't let my competent mother sign over POA to me, so everyone will tell you you need a lawyer for probate court. Try to find a lawyer as soon as possible. My sister POA has stopped me from visiting my mother in her room and today the NH would not let me see her at all by nurse saying she sleep and SW saying she wasn't feeling well. If you feel you will take better care of your father who needs meds to communicate you need to act quickly. What meds does he need to communicate? My Mom probably needs the same but I can't get the POA out of her hands as my mother is held against her will at the NH and her leg had been broken and her left had was contracted yesterday and now they won't even let me see her. Act quickly 😇 May God keep you day by day .

want2bdadspoa, please copy and paste your post into a brand new post, so more people will see it.

Caregivers thank you for your time and advice . Countrymouse the doctor's report states that my Mom only needs help with medical and financial decisions and that she is competent otherwise with confusion and forgetfulness or mild dementia .

And the court's interpretation of that was..?

The issue of your mother's competence will have been the first point dealt with in court when you were disputing power of attorney; simply because while a person is deemed legally competent she can override any POA if she chooses. So what did the judge say about it?

I can't even believe I'm doing this - taking one more swing at the poor dead horse. Even though there will be no "ah ha, I understand now" moment - here goes: momlover, the ability to make sound finanical and medical decisions are the two primary factors a judge considers when ruling on competency. Ask an attorney if you doubt me.

The doctor says Mom only needs help with medical and financial decisions -- meaning what, she can choose what she wants to wear today? Competency is a LEGAL decision, usually based on medical advice. A doctor certainly can have an informed opinion about this subject, but it is the court that determines competency in the legal sense.

So, Momlover, can you answer the very straightforward question, what does the judge say about mother's competency? The JUDGE, not her doctor.