My husband doesn't want to "therapeutic fib" to my dad

Is your hubby autistic? We have a HARD time even with " white lies" but I am starting to learn to do this with my mom who has dementia and is confabulating and her current memories last five mins. I think the lit agrees with you. And it IS hard for me to do! I feel like she can tell I am lying and she was always so adamant about hating lies! One time before dementia she said to me: If you are lying I will kill you, then I will kill myself. I was 14. Maybe your hubby has some similar weird af family trauma around lying? But yes. Autism also gives a strong sense of doing justice and being fair, doing the right thing. Tell hubs that now, lying to dad in law IS the "most right thing" to do.

I think I'd like it better hearing all these creative "stories of the past" from demented minds, rather than hear, "I don't know" as the answer to everything.

Not everyone has the empathy and patience to deal with someone who has dementia . I agree with the others who recommend Teepa Snow Videos . Teepa periodically Does a work shop at the Alzheimers association In Brewster, MA . Anyone can Join . Dementia / Alzheimer often mimics schizophrenia . It is best to just go along with the delusions . My mom Loved telling People " She saw the Beatles in Concert at the Melody tent the other Night . : She Loved to go to concerts at the Melody Tent . Probably brought her Happiness to reminiscence and Pretend she saw them . For awhile it was Elvis . My son and I would Look at each other Like " is she telling the truth ? " She Loved Music and singing . My Dad would Obsess about His mothers wedding ring ? Who took It ? He wanted to give that ring to Me . I would say " Dad That was Long ago , it is ok . " Then he would whip Out singing tunes form the 1920' and 1930's and they were funny Lyrics . How he had the memory for that - I have no idea . I think if your Dad is Happy let him be . Your Husband On the other hand isn't getting it . Not everyone can Understand someone with a mental Illness But I really think of Dementia as a Physical disability . The brain Is broken and the wires are crossed and the Nuerotransmitters are not working or firing correctly .

Thanks for sharing.

Lots of good advice here. Please, let's all give your husband a little grace and acknowledge that with or without therapeutic fibs, it can be exhausting to hold a conversation with someone with dementia. Bless him for his willingness to converse. Even after reading books and seeking advice from this site, I wished I'd had training in improvisational speaking and in theater when conversing with my LO with dementia. The biggest take away for me was that with or without lies, the focus should be on reassurance, comfort and distraction. Would your husband be willing to take a slightly alternative approach by not correcting your dad, but instead distracting him by steering the conversation towards things that ARE true but somewhat neutral in time... i.e. "Who was your favorite employee? " , "How did you develop such a strong work ethic?", "Tell me more about your early years of work", "What was your first job?".

My LO was so worried he hadn't finished his thesis in time to complete his degree, insisted it had gotten destroyed when he carried it out into the rain, or that he submitted before he was ready. It was a constant scramble to find ways to reassure him. Sometimes I had to fib, at least with respect to time and details, but sometimes I could find a neutral comforting statement in the moment. Examples: therapeutic fib " Dad, I forgot to tell you that I received confirmation that your thesis was submitted on time" versus more neutral statement of "Dad, I have confirmation that the committee got your thesis" (i.e. I've seen his degree certificate). If he'd asked more questions, I'd say "I'll get the certificate to you when I have it". Thank goodness I never had to dig through all his stuff to find it. LOL

I have an update--

but first and foremost thank you to all who have answered and shared your stories and suggestions and thoughts. This forum has helped me so much.

Here's the update, but first I will go back a month...

Four weeks ago, my dad called me asking for the number of his college so he could have proof he graduated, bc he'd need it for his new job. He said he just graduated last year. (He actually graduated in the 1950s.)

Three weeks ago he called me, talking as though he were back at work at his old job from the 1980s.

Two weeks ago he called and talked to my husband, who talked about his own business. So my dad then began to merge his job with my husband's.

Last week my dad called thinking he and my husband were in business together.

Well, today he called saying he has decided to "end his company."

I said, "Can you tell me a little bit about that?"

He said he just found out this morning, he wants the numbers of all his employees linked to his company, who he thinks was fired or dismissed, and what obligations does he have to his former employees.

I told him I'd be happy to call the employees for him, and he liked that idea, because he doesn't know how he will get their numbers.

So now I wonder what will next week bring.

This is the first time there has been a beginning, middle and end in whatever he was so focused on.

The hospice RN called me yesterday after her visit with him. She said my dad had a 'manic episode' when she was there, so I asked her to describe his behavior (because to me that sounded pretty severe and serious, perhaps with arms flailing and yelling). But what she described was that he was 'focused on work' and not in the present day.

So has each time I've talked with my dad been a manic episode?

There is no one answer and whatever answer there is will change. My uncle will call asking for help or to update me on stuff that makes no sense (TV frequently becomes reality). We can be having a conversation that makes perfect sense and he will segue into something totally different. Sometimes I go along with the conversation and sometimes I say "that's interesting" and try and change the conversation. It is tiring to keep up a lie through out. Unfortunately he will sometimes get on a roll and keep calling with updates or questions. Time of day means nothing. I can get a call at 4am with an update that he is back from his roadtrip. or 15 phone calls in the space of 3 hours with questions or updates. I know that he has nursing care there and there is nothing "wrong" so I am times do not answer the phone. It can be emotionally draining to try and carry on a conversation when it makes no sense. Just remember that you have to take care of yourself and do what works for you and you have the energy to do.

I don't believe in further confusing a dementia patient by insisting that whatever it is they currently believe is false, that so-and-so has been dead 40 years, that we are currently living in a house destroyed years ago, etc etc. The person is in their own reality, the easiest and kindest thing is to just meet them where they are.

I think if your husband is uncomfortable with going along with the ruse, or telling therapeutic fibs, that is ok. We all handle this difficult relationship in our own way. Your husband is more comfortable being grounded in reality. And can't understand why your father "won't" see it the way it is.

I hope he comes to understand that unless you meet the person with dementia where they are, in their imagined world, anything you say contrary to what they believe will usually only confuse them more.

Perhaps you or your husband, if you can convince him to do so, could create projects for your father to work on. It should pertain to what he knows in business, so he feels productive. Try not to give him anything that will only frustrate him if he feels that he isn't doing it well.
But writing a newsletter for your husband's business, or for your father's prior business will not hurt anyone.

I think there is another solution, one that doesn't compromise your husband's grounding in reality; You don't have to go along with your father's imagined "work" scenario as it was in the 80's. But, he really does yearn to feel productive and important, and relevant!
Find a project around the house for him to do, reminding him that he is now retired and doesn't have to go to work, but has time to help you with projects.
Anything - sweeping the kitchen or the front porch, folding laundry, writing up a weekly family schedule, or a weekly menu, or if he has a hobby and likes to make something with his hands, help him to do that.
If he is capable, let him do little repair projects around the house, as long as he won't get hurt doing it. Even if you have to "break" something - like remove a knob from a kitchen cabinet and ask him to screw it back on. Or a towel rack.
Get creative.
Perhaps he just misses the camaraderie of going to work and interacting with people. Could you help him find a group to join - a group of old guys who get together every week for coffee at the local coffee shop, or play cards, or encourage his friends who are still living and able to pay an occasional visit to him.

Your father, despite his dementia, has nothing to do in his retirement to fill his time in a way that he enjoys. Find friends for him, find a hobby he will enjoy, and find ways to keep him busy and active.

There are therapeutic fibs, there are white lies and then there are outright lies.

I prefer none of them. Because I can't remember the story if it wasn't the truth, I would prefer not to make it up because I would probably mess my facts up and destroy trust. My Mom used to fib to me as a child, and as an adolescent, I found out. I never entirely trusted what she said after that.....until the day she died, even through dementia. My sister's words were "with Mom, there were always strings attached....you never knew the entire story."

One of the geriatric doctors used therapeutic fibs with my Mom. My Mom detected it, and therefore, the whole session was a waste...the doctor couldn't be trusted. Everything the doctor said and recommended was negated. We never went back and my Mom refused to do anything the doctor recommended, even if it was a good recommendation.

Towards the last years of my Mom's life, trust became paramount. Anything I could do to show that she could trust me to tell her the truth, became important. I was the one who she relied on to tell her the bad news. I was the one who she relied on to tell her the good news. I was the one to tell her if her memory was accurate or not. She knew that her memory was not accurate, however, she also wanted to know whether she was making the right decisions based on her memory...all the way to her death.

What I was skilled at doing was deflecting. If your Dad wants to talk about work, ask him questions. When asked about the past, tell him you cannot remember, however, ask him what he remembers and continue to ask questions about the memory.

This is not about right and wrong. This is not about accuracy. This is not about opinions. This is about making conversation, using the brain cells that are still left to encourage speech and short term memory. This is about maintaining a human connection.

To tell someone outright that they have lost their memory or what they remember is incorrect, just destroys their self confidence in themself and makes them feel even lonelier. By asking questions, you are confirming to them, that you are hearing them, that the person is important enough that you want to hear more.

One of the few times that I cut my Mom short on a conversation, was when she became racist or talked about sexual preference. Then I would tell her that I didn't want to continue to the conversation, and start up on a different train of thought (btw, meanwhile, I was seething.)

Yes, I don't believe in therapeutic fibs, however, there are many ways to say "no" beside just shouting it out as a sentence. Same idea when dealing with someone with dementia.

I noticed that dementia "comes and goes"....there are times when the person is completely lucid and rational and times when they are whacked...I was not one who could easily detect the different mindset, therefore, I always erred on the side of telling the truth. That was one less piece of stress in my life....live the truth.

My MIL lived alone in AL. Her grown children (and grandchildren) lived in VA, and MD. So, no one was nearby except her own elderly siblings, and none of them talked to each other regularly. We all asked her to move in with us, and also offered to get her a nice Apt instead, but up here where we lived. The answer was always “no” to everything. On our last visit, she told us “she was going to die in her own Apt”.

Well, she almost did. We had all been calling her, and getting no answer for a couple of days, which we figured out by calling each other. We just assumed she was out at the hair dresser, pharmacy or grocery store. We finally called her youngest brother to go check on her.

Turned out she was on her LR floor after suffering a massive stroke. EMT’s assumed 3 days based on her tv guide page. Long story short - she survived it, but not unscathed. After several weeks in the hospital with a drain in her skull to relieve pressure, she had to go into a Nursing Home for 24/7 care. She couldn’t stand or walk, and struggled to talk. Over time, with speech therapy, her speech improved, but she remained immobile had to be moved from bed to bathroom or a wheelchair by means of a lift.

This isn’t Dementia, but might as well be. What none of us were prepared for was the total loss of her short term memory. My husband (her son) and I would fly down to visit, and she thought he was his Dad (who passed away years before). The NH staff told us to correct her immediately every time she made a mistake like that, so we did, as gently as we could. We’d say, “Mom, it’s your son and DIL”. However, we could see on her face that it made her feel bad for us to do that. Sometimes she perked up after a minute and looked at my husband and said, “When did you get here? Did you see your Dad leave?”. When we’d come back in the afternoon, we’d repeat the same thing. As someone said … groundhog day. Sometimes she knew my husband, but most times not. Or she’d tell us to “go out on the porch and fix yourselves a plate. I just cooked a ham and made potato salad and (green) beans”. So we’d say “sounds great! We’ll go do that soon”. Then the Nurses would say, “You both need to correct her when she says things like that. Bring her back to the present”. But from what we could see - there was no “present” for her anymore. Just past memories where she “lived”. She no longer read books or magazines (she had been an avid reader). A small tv was often on, but it was just noise. She didn’t watch it. I don’t know if she even noticed it. She didn’t ever look at it while we were there.

Anyway, we talked over the “correcting her”situation and made a command decision NOT to correct her anymore. If she was confused as to who my husband was, he’d step into the hall and then back in, and I’d say “Look who’s here Mom, your son”. Solved lots of things she could not help. We certainly felt better about it. Told my SIL what we’d decided, and she agreed. Why make Mom feel bad when she couldn’t fix it herself? It was obvious to us all she was stuck somewhere back in time - and maybe that was God’s gift to her so she wasn’t fully aware of her situation. I pray He’s that kind to me. So, we kept that up until she passed away in 2006 (86).

Now she’s with her beloved husband again. 4 1/2 years ago, my SIL and my Husband both joined them, 3 weeks apart. So, now it’s just me and my SIL’s extended family. I read, work puzzles (paper and jigsaw), go to church, grocery shop, and get together with friends. A friend and I take my Godmother, who lives in memory care, out to lunch at least monthly. We guide our conversations to get her back to the present and off repetitious subjects, etc. It’s just a cycle of life.

I see in these people where I may someday be. My father’s mother sat silently in a chair until she died. My mother’s family were all lucid. If and when I’m no longer aware, I hope and pray someone will be as kind to me.

i Think you are right to go along with your dads conversation, enter his world because he is unable to enter your world If you correct him and tell him he is wrong, it becomes frustrating for him because in his mind, he is still working. My husband insisted I take him back to his shop where he has worked because he had left his tools out and someone would steal them. First I tried correcting him and then I realized he was convinced that he had to go get them. I drove him there, drove all over around that area and then he said we’d better go back home. I never questioned his decision and we drove back. I have read several articles about dementia and it says to go along with him, otherwise it will create an argument and that is upsetting to him. My husband is in the late stages just like your dad and is even is having trouble talking, the words are there but he can’t express them very well. This is a horrible disease !

My 89 year oldMom did some of those same things. I doesn’t hurt one bit to play along even though you know differently. Mom had stated that she and I were baking a lot of pies for one week. I just told
her no wonder I am so tired. She said it was fun and we should do it again some time. She was also obsessed with her car keys so we brought in her keys and hung them where she could see them. It made her happy and kept her calm. We all figured that as long as she was happy that was all that mattered in the long run. To keep her content. Unfortunately we lost her 5 weeks ago but I do not feel guilty of playing along with her. My sister would constantly correct Mom if she said something that was not true which in turn upset Mom.i see no harm in it as long as everything calm.
good luck

A Question. How would he comfort a child who has not yet mentally developed the ability to reason or understand a situation? Does he adjust to the level of the child? This is in essence what you are asking him to do - meeting your Dad where he is living mentally.

Or if he won’t watch videos, would he engage with an expert verbally - say a doctor or psychiatrist (person with authority)?

Prayers for your situation.

Is there any chance your husband would agree to watch a few videos by Teepa Snow? She has lots of free information and role playing- on Facebook and YouTube. Another suggestion would be for him to attend even one caregiver support group he might learn how futile it is to try to bring a person with dementia back to reality. Best of luck to you.

Maybe your husband needs to tell dad business isn’t good and he has to let him go
then we are in a recession
moneys ok so you don’t need to work but a lot of people need your expertise ( actually there are forums for people to share knowledge and get replies)
maybe he needs to be diverted not to make money but help others in need of his expertise
i can understand your husband not wanting to take part in elaborate stories but your father needs to feel wanted and the truth may be a bit too hard to accept
maybe steer him to a hobby
?

I think this concept is paramount:
“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”
Maya Angelou

You may want to consider that when your hubby comes home from work, he doesn't want to talk about work. It seems like he never left work and cannot relax.

It might be wiser if your can help your dad to develop several different interests. Your hubby may be more willing to discuss one of those other topics.

Let your husband do what he wants a few times, and he will see the negative results. (I am assuming he won't directly say to your father that he has dementia or Alzheimer's.)  Either your father will argue with your husband or be upset (or both). After a few attempts at doing things his way, your husband will see that it doesn't work. Yes, your father may get very upset, but the result will be a better situation for everyone iinvolved than the current situation is. It's also likely your father won't remember much, if anything, of what your husband says. 

It may be that your husband is incapable of diverging from reality and playing along with your dad's fantasy world. But that doesn't mean that he needs to be brutally honest either. He can just say that he's off the clock and doesn't want to talk about work right now.
Nevertheless, it sounds as if your parents' mental health is deteriorating rapidly, and this might not be a problem for very much longer.

You said that their care can be afforded. I hope that's out of their own money. You and your brother don't know what the future holds - you may need more money than you realise for your own old age or ill health. Similarly, do not send your dad cheques for his imaginary job - that's a step too far for therapeutic fibs.

Please don't stress too much about your husband not understanding (or trying to understand) how to deal with dementia. It isn't his strength, but I'm sure he has others. It won't hurt your dad as much as it seems - I'm afraid he'll forget what's been said soon enough.

Do be open to your parents going into care if it seems that in-home care isn't enough.

Wishing you all the best at this difficult time.

Your husband needs to study / read / learn about what dementia is - so he'll know how to communicate / interact. Tell him to watch Teepa Snow's webinars and You Tubes. If this were my dad, I wouldn't let my husband 'visit' if he is going to be 'honest' and not take the time to understand how your dad's brain / chemistry works - or no longer works - now. It is really ignorance or ignorant and somewhat cruel - due to his (your husband's) inability to understand what he is doing by trying / determined to talk to your dad as if he has full mental / brain cell capacity to understand. Tell your husband that the main compassionate behavior he can do now is be COMPASSIONATE and learn what dementia is. Take the time to read ... have the willingness to understand what you - and your dad - are going through. His ignorance is really cruel and absolutely unnecessary if he'd educate himself - even a little.

I thought I said this above ... if my husband had an attitude like this, I would tell him "do not visit my dad" unless or until you educate yourself on dementia and learn how to communicate with a person whose brain (chemistry) has changed. While this shouldn't make me 'mad' I take it personally ... as I know how hard this is on you. You don't need another layer of stress - which your husband is causing - you, and certainly he isn't doing ANY good for your support.

I wonder why he is so intent in his position? Perhaps something else is going on in his brain (meaning your husband's brain).

Gena / Touch Matters

Nothing like a know-it-all who refuses to educate himself about dementia, huh? If DH happens to "find something" about always speaking the truth to an elder with advanced AD, then he's created it himself.

My advice is to keep your husband away from your dad because he's causing more trouble than he's curing. You're doing a great job with dad so keep it up.

PS....after reading your added info, when you FaceTime dad, just tell him your husband isn't home at the moment. God bless you for having TWO parents to deal with, and your dear brother also. Best of luck.

My husband has trouble with 'pretend'. Dislikes fiction books, dislikes most fantasy movies. It has it's pros & cons.. Will give his unfiltered opinion to being asked "Does this outfit look OK?"

He also would be completely unable to tell therapeutic fibs, even when faced with advanced dementia.

I don't know how to help you, sorry. But I do commiserate.

Well, I think you are doing a good job, and they are your parents, not his, so I think it is your call.

Your father will not remember what your husband says anyway, so it is all a moot point, it will not stop your father from continuing his behavior, until that leaves his brain and then he will move onto something else to fixate himself on.

Dementia is a progressive disease; your father will not get better.

Sorry for all of this stress, it is not easy dealing with parents who have dementia.

How about if your husband tells your dad something like this..
Validate that he wants to talk about work but then redirect the conversation to something else. This will allow your dad to talk about work for a minute or two and your husband to turn the conversation in another direction.

"Charlie" ya know we just got off work and I think we should talk about something fun. Can you tell me what birds you have see lately?"

"Charlie", it's Saturday let's not talk about work today. Let me tell you about___________".

"Charlie" I saw a beautiful Baltimore Oriole today can you tell me what kind of food to put out for them so they come back?"

But if your husband refuses to do some of this ...let's call it role play.. then if your dad asks to talk to your husband simply say
"Dad, he is not here right now I am sure he will call you later"
or
"Dad, he is on the other phone right now but he said to say HI"

I am almost 100% sure that your husband will not find anything that says it is ok to correct people with dementia.
Arguing with a person with dementia is sure to get both people upset.
Not worth ruining a conversation.
Not to mention if your dad gets upset then that will upset you, if your dad is upset your mom gets upset, if your mom is upset you get upset. if your husband is upset that comes back at you....you are the one that looses in this scenario.

daughterofAD, Thanks for providing a critical piece of information, which is that your Dad lives several states away from you and your husband. This fact probably changes what guidance responders give you. It does now beg the question of whether he has someone local looking out for him? Your husband not participating in therapeutic fibs may be the least of your Dad's issues. More info would be helpful.

Thank you for your responses. They are quite insightful.

My dad does not live with us. We live several states away. Our weekly contact with him is via phone call or FaceTime calls.

You know, basically in all this, I will just say that it is ALWAYS difficult for people to live together. ALWAYS. Add dementia into the mix and no one will agree what's best, and people will not do things "your way"; they will do things "their way".

Think of a marriage. Now think of a marriage + children. Now think of living with Mom and Dad. Now think of living with grown children. Throw in living with a roommate.
It is ALWAYS difficult.
Now add in dementia? Difficult moves to impossible.

You are managing your father's dementia to the best of your ability. And your husband is managing it to the best of HIS. And adding into the mix telling your husband "how it should be done" and requiring of him that he become a student of dementia? Not going to work. How would YOU like it if he required you to read nutrition books? Cook books? Housecare books? Nope. Not going to work.

You have taken on caregiving of your Dad by choice and it's actually a lucky thing that hubby hasn't said he is tired of the extra in your household and it is ruining his peaceful marriage. You are the primary caregiver. I myself don't really believe in building on lies and even on "white lies" and "therapeutic fibs" but for you, having I must assume trying both ways, this works best. Don't expect your fit to work for others in the household. And with dementia it doesn't really matter the approach because it won't be truly computed and remembered by the other.

It would be WONDERFUL if hubby chose to say "Dad, could you write a letter to NBC and CBS about tonight's news program" and would be more wonderful if Dad were occupied with that. It would give you all a break. But your hubby has to find what works best for himself in living with all this.

Just my humble opinion. I wish you all the best of luck. There's no perfection in aging care.

Your husband OBVIOUSLY hasn't educated himself at all about the horrific disease of dementia. and that is a shame, as he's not only hurting himself(by being in denial) but also your dad.
When someone is in the throes of dementia it is so very important that we meet them where they are at in their world, not ours. And until your ignorant husband understands that, things will never change.
Perhaps you need to let your husband read the responses on your post. It may just open his eyes.