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He has no insurance. He has no way of paying for a nursing home or even to see a doctor. My brother and I cannot care for him as we are financially unable. What do we do? He’s only 58. Dementia is likely but has not been diagnosed. He has a history of heavy drinking.

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I agree, one of you should call the nursing home; or you could even do it together, on speaker phone.

The worst that can happen is the NH says sorry no we can't give you confidential information and you're no further forward. It's not like if the NH spots you in the distance you'll be hunted down and forced to assume responsibility for your father's care.
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Thanks for the update!

Why doesn't you brother call the nursing home?

He has likely been appointed a guardian by the state. If he is receiving Medicaid, he will have a personal needs allowance. You can Google your state's Medicaid information to find out how much it is.

I don't think that you or your brother is putting yourself in any danger by talking to the NH social worker and asking about dad's medical care, how he can access his personal needs allowance or who his guardian is.
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Hi, Bnb. I'm not sure about who to contact at the nursing home, but I am very glad to read your update! So glad your dad is being cared for and even making friends there. This must be a wonderful relief to you and your family. Well done getting this care set up for him!
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Update! It’s been a month and a 1/2 and my dad has been in a nursing home. He wears a bracelet that locks doors. Since he’s a dementia patient they don’t allow him to go out side the main doors. He’s doing well. Made friends. The confusing part is knowing who to ask questions to. I specifically told them he needed a guardian and that person would not be me. He’s been given benefits that he needs but not sure if he has access to any kind of money for things he might need. My brother wants me to call and ask but I don’t want to get involved and I don’t think they would give me that info since I’m not a guardian. My dad has told me that he’s not seen a doctor yet. I find that hard to believe. He’s been there a month and a 1/2. Surely he has. Any one know if I would get answers from the nursing home?
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MACinCT Dec 2018
You can go visit him and see for yourself how he is doing and how well he is being cared for. You are under no obligation to be his guardian. If he does not have one already, the courts usually will appoint one so do not worry. Please keep us posted
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Well that's a good thing that your mom is taking care of him. You all did your best so I think he would be in great hands.
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Bnb, how are things going with your dad?
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Bnb129s Jul 2018
i had to back up and let my brother take things on full force. My mom took him in but she’s forcing my brother to make some decisions next week. So I’ve stayed away. My mom and dad are doing well, he’s not drinking and he doesn’t go out of her sight. Many people said he would lie and go back to drinking or hiding his drinking but this situation is not like that at all. He’s at a stage in his dementia that he’s not making any decisions on his own. Day to day things he needs help with. I spent time over there last weekend- just visited for a few hours- and he’s not the same person he was even 6 months ago. We are working with someone getting Medicaid figured out. Things are ok, but not amazing. We are doing the best we can. My mom is pretty much the best person ever taking him in. She’s taking good care of him. It’s temporary until we get word where he can go for assisted living.
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Great thoughts here. Thank you all for sharing some valuable information.
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You wrote;
"Dad hasn’t had a drink in a long while according to him and his friends my brother knows. So I don’t think that’s a problem any more. By the sound of it, my dad doesn’t even acknowledge he was a drinker- like he forgot it."

Honey, you are in denial. So you believe your dad and his friends. Oh boy! We WANT to believe the alcoholic hasn't been drinking but they are ADDICTED to alcohol. You don't JUST STOP and say "Oh, I'm not going to do that anymore." It's a h*ll of a hard process to quit. Would a heroin addict JUST STOP?

From the sound of your dad's history, he will not be able to do that on his own. My dad never felt the need to hide it (and never quit either). My step-father hid it behind the headboard of the bed.

I never thought my dad would get any booze in the Board and Care Homes he was in .... but guess what? He did.

Your dad may be good at hiding it (brushing his teeth, mints, etc.) but please don't be fooled, unless HE wants to stop and gets treatment for it, he hasn't quit.

I'm not trying to depress you or bring your hopes down. It's just that a few of us have lived with alcoholics and know the trademark characteristics.

It's too bad your brother did not listen to the good advice offered here. Your mother may now be stuck with him. As we said, if she accepts him into her house, she has made a commitment for his care. She could be in trouble for throwing him out now. Do you really think your dad is going to leave her place when he's got it good? This was a homeless man-he's got it made now!

Tell your brother that he just imprisioned your mother. He would have been better off listening to us (those who have been through it), than putting your mother in a compromising position.

You may have a chance of talking with an elder law attorney if you contact the Senior Center in your town. They occasionally will work for free or donation or low cost. Find out legally what can happen. You will NOT ever be financially responsible for him. The state can NOT make you pay for any services for him.
You have also been estranged from him for years and that would be a factor also (proving no relationship).

Your husband is correct in not letting him into your home. And your first responsiblity is to hubby and your baby. Don't mess it up by pushing the issue. Regardless that you want to help your father, he's made his own choices and you and your family don't need to pay for them.

Take Dad to the hospital with any complaint he has (diarrhea, poor appetite, etc.,) then have EVERYONE refuse to take him home. You ALL need to be on the same page. Get the hospital Social Worker involved and REFUSE to bring him to anyone's home. This will force the state to place him somewhere.
The state will NOT throw him out in the street.
You will NOT have to pay for ANYTHING for him.

It will work IF you guys would quit letting your brother call all the shots when he doesn't know what he's doing.

Good luck
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Bnb, no not stupid.

Who is your brother getting advice from?

It sounds like you are the kind of folks who take "no" for an answer. Don't be that way.

What social worker will brother be speaking with? Has a social worker been assigned to dad by the county social service agency, or are you referring to the hospital social worker?
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Woe, wait a minute... YOU DO NOT SOUND STUPID!!!
Don't even think that.
How are you supposed to know if you've never done this before? The only reason I'm familiar with the process is because my Dad went through it.
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Well, the road blocks were trying to figure out where to go for Medicaid and to see a doctor. We sound really stupid but we just didn’t know where to go. Never had to do this before. We attempted one place just before the hospitalization but the person who said they could help went on vacation. So we decided to try again after the holiday and that’s when we just decided the hospital was the only option.
I’m going to find out more tonight about the cirrhosis stage. The only symptom he had was a high ammonia level- and by high I mean 42. Not crazy high but it was elevated from what I’m gathering.
I know we went about this all wrong and I’m sounding ridiculous. Things just happened quickly. I will persist with getting my brother to speak with the social worker about the very temporary living situation. I want my mom out of this ASAP. I know that was a bad choice. My brother is taking my dad to apply for Medicaid tomorrow. The next time my dad needs an er visit, I will certainly make my brother refuse to pick him up. I will ask my mother to refuse to allow him to come back.
I’m not angry with my brother. He has no clue but I’m going to force him to listen to my instructions going forward.
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Oh Gordon Bennett..!

Look. If somebody has got into water out of his depth, you don't help him by jumping in, do you? You help by fishing him *out*.

You have - to extend the metaphor - thrown your brother a series of lifelines and buoyancy aides. He has so far been reluctant to use them, not least because your father isn't doing so. But that doesn't make you wrong! Stay put! Your brother will eventually get the message.

PS Your father is unlikely to be discharged to the streets. But if he is, it won't be long before he's back in hospital. Take him home instead, and it will be a little bit longer but a whole lot more damaging for your brother. Advocate advocate advocate - find out where the social workers hang out and camp in their office, if need be. Do NOT attempt to provide hands-on care.
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///// I feel like I need to try to help my brother. As does my mom. So yeah, We are getting sucked in. //////

Okay, what's the deal here? Why do you and Mom feel you need to HELP BROTHER out?

I thought this was about getting help for Dad. What's with this appeasement of brother? And why does he have the final say?

You went on to write...

brother doesn't understand he has the right to refuse to take him out.

So knowing brother was acting on misinformation, no one could stop him? And Mom had to get thrown under the bus because brother is ruling the roost? None of this makes any sense.
You said you *begged* him to tell the social worker Dad had nowhere to go.
Yet brother didn't, and Mom enabled his bad decision by taking Dad in. Why? Since they've been divorced for 30 years.

Brother has way too much control over EVERYONE'S lives. I thought this was two adult children trying to figure out how to get help for Dad.

However, your know it all brother, just screwed Mom and Dad.
Mom, by taking him in, and Dad, by not getting the care he needs.

Bnb, seems after all your efforts to find out the best route to follow, your hands were tied. But here's something you can do. I know you're worried about Mom's unfortunate involvement. But do not let brother's lousy choices affect YOUR marriage.
You said you wish your husband would let Dad stay with you.
Dad is an alcoholic with dementia and cirrosis of the liver. That's way over your heads and hubby knows it. He shouldn't be in your home. Please don't make this an issue with hubby. Mom DID agree to take him to appease brother.

How do you know it will be a "very temporary" (under a month) arrangement?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh and repetitive. But like I told you earlier, on this thread, my Dad was an unemployed, homeless paranoid schizophrenic with alcoholism. He caused chaos and havoc wherever he went. Finally he was brought to the ER, became a ward of the state, and placed in a long term care facility, all in record time.

He received long over treatment. He was finally eating, bathing, sleeping and medicated consistently, until he peaceful passed in his sleep.
I loved him very, very much.

I knew his illness tortured him. (And those around him) As it is also doing to your Dad. This is not their fault. My heart goes out to your Dad as well. This is why I'm so frustrated with your brothers actions.

I hope you understand I'm not criticizing you at all. I know you're doing the best you can, with your limited allowance to make decisions.

One last thing. Did they *stage* Dad's cirrosis?

My SIL died last August of cirrosis, at 40yo. The first problem was sever swelling of the feet and legs. Followed by the inability to walk. As soon as Dad gets his first bout of swelling, rush him to the ER. Hopefully he can get back in the hospital fast and deemed a ward of the state.
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Bnb; If your brother is driving the train, then he needs to take responsibility for the direction that the train goes in.

Consider any requests from brother or mother in that light.

Are your parents still married?
Who is going to do the Medicaid application?
Who is going to protect your mother's assets and income?
Does your mother have a "regular" lawyer or financial advisor she trusts?
If parents are still married, legally, your brother REALLY needs to consult with an Eldercare attorney about the application for Medicaid.

What kind of road blocks did you hit in getting him help?
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It’s all a mess. And all confusing. My brother is driving the train. He’s the one that took him to the hospital. I’m just here helping on the side as I can. We have no clue what we are doing. Just over here trying to do the right thing. My brothers decision making is in the right place but he has no idea. We had decided my dad was going to go to my moms way before we had taken him to the hospital last week. It all happened so fast. I tried to get him to understand we don’t have to pick him up. But he was afraid they would have sent him to the streets. Dad hasn’t had a drink in a long while according to him and his friends my brother knows. So I don’t think that’s a problem any more. By the sound of it, my dad doesn’t even acknowledge he was a drinker- like he forgot it. I’ve only spent a short time with him in the last few years. I’m super hands off with all of this. Im pretty limited in my helping abilities due to various things. We tried to get things figured out before the recent hospital stay but we kept hitting road blocks- we just have no idea what we are doing.
I tried to explain to my brother the ideas you all had mentioned but he was hesitant and made decisions. I can’t blame him. I’m really scared now.
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"...my brother keeps saying that this will be a process that takes time and that he will have to live with someone until he can get disability/Medicaid."

His usage of the term "someone" pretty well signaled it wasn't going to be with your brother.

"...my mom has decided that he can come stay with her if needed."

WRONG DECISION! And now you are going to have to help her? She could have refused.

I'm wondering if you ever would have just let the state take over. Were you the only one who would have accepted that? Or did you not really expect it would ever happen, either?

Yes, Barb is right that when (not if) he goes back to the hospital, no family member will pick him up. But if your brother wasn't the one to take him in this time, is he going to demand someone take him in again? And will your mother cave in again? WHO is really driving this train here?
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Did you check to see if your state is one which funds AL through a Medicaid waiver program? The wait lists for those waivers are generally years long. Except for emergency placements, made by social workers at hospitals.

*Hint, when he goes back to the hospital, DON'T allow any family member to pick him up!
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https://www.agingcare.com/articles/how-to-get-guardianship-of-elderly-parents-140693.htm

So, the above link is an informative article on guardianship.
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Yes, filing for guardianship is a hassle and expensive at the same time. For me, it is better for him that someone in your family will be taking care of him but I know it is hard since both of you are financially unable.
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The hospital would have filed for emergency temporary guardianship. Your mother needs an eldercare attorney right now. I hope your mother or brother has the funds for that.

Are they still married? Filing for Medicaid when a spouse is involved is not a diy project. You need a certified Eldercare attorney to protect mom's assets and income.

Guardianship is an expensive process. Usually about 10k from what I understand. Is your brother going to volunteer to be dad's guardian?
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PS, brother should have taken him!
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He is no longer a candidate for  "ward of the state". That went out the window when he left the hospital. He's now considered " in the care of family".
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Bnb, you couldn't ask the social worker at the hospital how get dad declared a ward of the state?

Now, instead of having the resources and expertise of an institution that could get dad placed, your mother is left to her own devices.

I'm so sorry your brother doesn't understand life. Next time, please take charge.
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WAIT WHAT??!!?, that makes no sense.

Brother refused to tell the social worker Dad had nowhere to go because he feared they would push him out anyway..........???

Your brother should have stayed out of it. Why didn't you advocate for Dad?

You were right, brother was wrong. Now Mom is screwed, Dad's fast track chance is gone and you're worried sick. Nice.

I'm sorry bnb, hopefully Dad won't drink, leading Mom to throw him out. Then you'll be back to where you were before, only it will be more worrisome since you know how sick he is.

"Less then a month with Mom", how do you figure that? Dad is now just another regular Joe applying for Medicaid. No need for them to expedite his application....Poor Mom...SMH

Good Luck.
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Also, I’m trying to research “ward of the state” information. It’s hard to find. I don’t understand who files this petition with the courts. How do we do this? And has anyone ever gone through this process. I’m exploring all options at this point.
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My dad was released from the hospital tonight. The social worker told my brother the only way my dad was getting into assisted living now was if we paid out of pocket. They said in order to get the assisted living we would need to get him on Medicaid. So, in the mean time dad is at my moms. This is very temporary. Less than a month, we hope. I told my mom we can figure this out no matter what if she can’t do it. It’s unfair of us to ask her to do this but we felt like we had no choice. We will be getting things going ASAP with the Medicaid paperwork and going from there. Praying since we have a diagnosis we can move fast. We were told He needs assisted living forever. I begged my brother to tell the social worker he had no where to go but he feared they would push him out the door anyway. So frustrating. All of it. I wish we could pay out of pocket for assisted living. I wish dad would have not gotten himself into a mess like this. I wish my husband would let him live with us. But none of this is happening. My mom is taking him in. In theory this sounds great. But the way things always go, I know this won’t be easy.
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Bnb, your dad needs rehab, not the kind we usuAlly talk about here. As soon as he is released from the hospital he will start drinking again making everyone around him miserable. If those caring for him are compatible passionate people they will blame themselves and wonder what they did wrong to cause dad's drinking. He has to want to help himself and he has not wanted to for years. Do not do this to yourselves. Attend ALANON meetings (for families of alcoholics).

Alcoholics have to hit rock bottom which will not happen with anyone enabling him. He will promise to stop drinking yet he will not. For some death is their rock bottom.
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Bnb, it is really important that your mother and brother UNDERSTAND this.

Your father needs help of a sort that they cannot give him. They are not trained. They are not qualified. They are ordinary people in ordinary homes.

As an illustration, ask them - if he had cancer, would they volunteer to do the surgery?

They do not lack goodwill. They lack the facilities and the expertise your father needs. That does not make them bad or uncaring people.

Do your best to stop them making a mistake that will create bigger problems for everyone down the line.
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He's homeless. He has no known address. Please tell you mother and brother that they have NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to take him in and that doing so will delay getting him further help.

Can you find out if your State Medicaid program funds Assisted Living? Some do, some don't and there are often waiting lists that are YEARS long. But a homeless emergency placement might be an exception.

What the doctor is saying is that he's not sick enough for a Nursing Home, which would be better; Medicaid WILL pay for NH placement.

How would your mother or brother prevent him from drinking? Peeing on the neighbors lawns? Smearing feces all over the bathroom? Do either of them understand dementia?
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I doubt they will release him . He is a vulnerable, indigent, mentally and physically I'll man.

Tell your brother to back off, and butt out! Does he want to ruin Dad's chances to improve the quality of his life?
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