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They are coming after her now. She has some savings which is mostly from Social Security, and all the rest of her money is in her retirement account. Will they be able to take her retirement account? She needs that to pay for memory care. I'm her daughter & POA.
There was absolutely no criminal neglect here. She was very meticulous about everything up until about 2015 when everything started falling away and nobody knew what was going on until all the damage was done. When I found out, I stepped in and shut down her business.
I know I need to see a lawyer with her but just wanted to bounce this off of you all and see if anybody's been in a similar situation or if you know if the tax agencies will be able to take her retirement account to satisfy the debt.

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I want to thank everybody for their wonderful, helpful responses. This is just a brief update: I managed to get complete tax and wage reports for all the years in question from ADP and sent them to the Ohio Unemployment people. They have worked through them and now want me to call for an "exit conference" so at least that's one thing that will be squared away. As far as the IRS goes, I still haven't heard anything from them thank goodness, but I will be making an appointment with an elder law attorney this week and also following up on some of the suggestions from Tacy022. I will keep you all posted. Thanks again, and hugs to all! <3
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
Reply to Tacy022: Yes, basically they just gave me the final calculation for the debt. ...just over $30,000. $20k principal, the rest penalties and interest. I told the lady they could try to get a judgement against her but she's basically insolvent. She said she would talk to their lawyer and find out what the process would be for this situation before she sends the audit letter. I won't sign anything!
My next step is to get on the Ohio Business Gateway portal. I do have her login information, I know you told me to set up my own but my financial POA includes all business stuff too; would that give me the ability to log on with her credentials legally?
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I agree with others who have said that the IRS can be reasonable to work with as long as you are making a good faith effort to resolve the issue. I would make an appointment asap with a CPA and bring all of the financials, your POA documentation, and any other necessary info with you. They can help negotiate with the IRS on your behalf and help you sort out all of the financial info and determine what paperwork needs to be filed, etc.
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OurOldHouse, I would question the payroll company about the money they withheld from employees checks. Did they continue to withhold money and your mom paid their bill? These taxes are not normally paid quarterly, monthly would be my best estimate for her. I would track down if she paid the payroll company the actual money. I can't imagine that they would have paid her employees for 3 months lit alone 3 years if they weren't getting paid.

The IRS is not going to waive any taxes. You may get penalties and fees lowered, but this money belongs to others and now that they know, it is going to cost her.

I would be thankful that she has the money to pay. I would check with the P/R company. I can't wrap my head around them holding this money and not making deposits. They worded that in a way that leads me to believe that they have the money and were waiting for quarterly reports? BUT 3 years they didn't deposit money, sounds like they have some culpability for this mess.

Find a good business tax attorney, they will be able to help get this sorted out, get records and maybe go after the P/R firms liability insurance, to continue to withhold taxes and not make deposits is criminal. You know she was paying them, the time frame involved proves that.

Best of luck, what a mess.

Edit: if you tell the IRS you were fighting for years for a dementia diagnosis, they are going to question why someone wasn't checking on things if you knew she was in need of a dx. I wouldn't say that, I would say we had no idea until we found out how messed up everything is and now that the dr has dx dementia we understand how things arrived here, now we need help fixing everything. Just my opinion.
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worriedinCali Aug 2019
payroll taxes are often paid/filed quarterly. In my state it’s done quarterly. Not monthly. In some states such as the OPs, it depends on how much is being withheld from the employees. So the payroll company could have been paying daily up to annually. But it was most likely quarterly or monthly.
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OurOldHouse: this is in response to your response on Aug. 9 to Feeltheburn. You're so right about the possibility the IRS will throw in your face that your mother's dementia diagnosis was last year and the tax issues started before that.

Perhaps write an affidavit about all your remembrances of the start of her symptoms. Ask other family member or business associates to do the same.

With a tax attorney, and armed with your mom's earlier spotless business records, affidavits to the start of her symptoms, your mom's medical records, and dementia information, perhaps the IRS can help you get her tax records sorted out to the IRS's satisfaction with a minimum of fees/fines.

The people at the IRS have families too, and being prepared with data that what she did was not the purposeful act of a felon but a person who was undergoing a disease that she didn't understand might go a long way to a satisfactory conclusion. Best wishes to you. *hug*
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Something just came to mind: clearly my mom had signs of dementia for a long while and was even able to behave and communicate so well when at the MD's office they had seen long term that he didn't realize it. It's amazing in a way...there were the odd things, the nastiness...but it was a trip to visit my sister when it all became clear for me, and then a routine review of typical symptoms where I could pretty much check them all off with examples...so that the MD investigated further and was surprised himself...my point is that it is essential you get medical documentation asap...not necessarily a bunch of tests...but just even documenting the mini mental, and if the professional can document how far back they observed or knew. In our case our beloved MD left the system and the new doc was so super ethical he refused to back date what the former MD had written down, using a current date instead of when it was actually identified...
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Shane1124 Aug 2019
No MD will recreate documentation on a case they are not familiar with. Ethical *&* illegal.
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I would suggest that you get an attorney, and a doctors report of her dementia. Yes I think her retirement account would be at risk. You have to prove thru a doctors report that she had dementia.
Sorry you are going thru this trial. I’m having a hard time myself ! Take care and keep me posted!
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
I am absolutely going to do that, what worries me is that the IRS will point out that she only received this diagnosis in September, yet the tax issues have been ongoing for years. I don't know if they will understand that that we were fighting with the doctor and my mother to get her properly evaluated and diagnosed years ago, but she was in denial and she was very good at fooling the doctor. In retrospect, her symptoms started as early as 10 years ago. But we just chalked it up to personality quirks back then. Even when it became apparent that something was really wrong and she could no longer drive and things like that, we never thought for a minute that she would make these kind of mistakes. She was always a perfectionist and very dedicated to her work. God how I wish I had figured this out earlier... the woman who was my mother faded away long before I even realized it.
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A good tax attorney will help you provide the right papers to prove mom's medical incompetence, & negotiate a deal. If mom's spouse is living though, he is likely liable for the failure to pay also. The lawyer can probably advise you how to protect yourself in the future also, (being her POA).
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Verify that it's a legitimate debt that has correct figures. If it's only unemployment taxes, there's a quarterly wage report that was filed....
Figure out exactly what was and wasn't filed/completed and paid. Contact that payroll company What exactly did the unemployment letter state?

If it's just unemployment, then something isn't adding up. After reading through the comments---it sounds as if the payroll company would have paid everything accordingly. So...what's really happening--you received a standard unemployment taxes due notice? What was the payroll company's response??

I just viewed a few docs about this exact same issue in Kentucky, yet in reality all taxes were paid. Yet something clerical happened at the state level. A lien was placed and removed, due to the error being found. It's a jolting experience for sure. But verify the accuracy of the notice against numbers that ADP(the payroll company) will have somewhere.

ADP sent your mother the 941 form since she was not set up with ADP's Tax Filing Service or was set up as deposit only. The quarterly report that normally Displays SUI taxable wages and total unemployment taxes due in the quarter wasn't generated, likely.....It's fixable, not too complicated. Go online and research what is needed. It seems as if your mom didn't utilize ADP to its fullest capacity.



So don't panic--use your brillance, and be patient. As you know it's boringly boring stuff. The mistake likely will be found by the payroll company. Dig deeper you might find that your mother did everything correctly. Yet somewhere somehow a decimal was recorded incorrectly.
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Why not contact the IRS and explain the issue?  With doctor documented evidence, something should be able to be worked out.  I'd consult a tax attorney as well.
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
I did contact them to try to find out what exactly she hadn't paid. Was on hold for 45 minutes just to get a fax number from them so I could send them my POA so that I could just talk to them about it! Lol. Hopefully will actually get to speak with them next week.
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OurOldHouse, I hope that you are checking out the real situation. I would not waste money on an elder law attorney, they don't typically understand employee taxes, not part of there job description.

Tacy22 has provided the most accurate information. You need to verify what is actually happening. The payroll company should have paid those taxes that were withheld from employees checks and the companies matching dollar amounts. This could be a data input error. Ask the employee that says she has no income for 3 years to look at her w2 or paystub and verify the information is correct, I would question her about any changes in her life, divorce, name change, etc. I would also contact the payroll company and request a copy of the payments made on behalf of your moms company.

I would verify that there is even any taxes owed before I spent any money on attorneys. Mom will have to pay any withholding taxes or unemployment taxes that were generated by payroll. They won't say no problemo. Her worker's compensation insurance would be determined by a year end audit. They would not provide 3 years of coverage without an audit. To many people try to hustle the system and they have figured it out. I would let the insurance company come to her, however, it is not necessary to pay additional money to them, she more than likely had a deposit that was based on annual premiums. They can't come after her unless they have done the audit, they don't have any numbers to go by.

Please verify if there is even any issue, besides one employee with a problem on a SS benefits notice. This could so not be a huge issue. Even if it is a problem at least you are operating from a position of knowledge and not fear and confusion.

If you need an attorney, big if, please find a good business tax attorney. They are on first name basis with tax reps and they can get things done that you can't. I would not sign anything, if asked hire an attorney. This really should be about paying taxes and nothing else.

Unfortunatly your mom is personally responsible as the S Corp holder. Were there other stock holders?
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
I'm waiting to speak with the IRS once they receive my POA. From what ADP told me, they would send payments on taxes like 941 on her behalf only after she sent the completed reports to ADP. Since she never did that, and likely didnt follow up on any reminders they sent her, they didn't send the payments.
The social security issue is absolutely legit, it was not just the one employee who had that problem, it was all of them I found out.
As for workers comp, if I remember correctly, all she had to do each year was fill out a short form that listed what type of work each department did and show that there hadn't been any accidents - it wasn't a big thing, & she may have just copied reports from previous years, I don't know, I have not spoken to them yet. But from the bills I saw it looked like they were racked up with lots of penalties/interest/fees due to non-payment/non-reporting and they were estimating the amount that she owed.
My dad is the only other stock holder (minority) but they've been divorced for 20 years and he doesn't seem to care what's going on since he's retired in Florida with his new(ish) wife. He did mention he hadn't received a K-1 from her in many years - I don't know how he is handling that on his taxes but he seems to have figured out a way to deal with it.
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As POA, You need to Consult a Lawyer's Advice to Handle the Situation very Nice. Someone has to be in Charge of her affairs and if your Name is NOT on her Accounts, Tey may Put a Freeze on them to gettheir Money, honey...Put all of her Affairs NOW in order.
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Get an elder law attorney involved now.
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No offense to others here, but I would not accept the advice from anyone but an elderlaw attorney in your own state.  State laws differ. Elderlaw Attorneys advocate for their clients and their care. They also understand these situations because they see them all the time.  A good one will tell you the limits of their expertise and make referrals (maybe a tax attorney in your case.)

Also, paying for an elder law attorney comes out of your mom's estate, you can get reimbursed for it.   We paid a pretty penny for the advice, but in the long run, it has save my parents from losing their assets due to liens from creditors. 

I had a similar issue (not with a business) but my parents stopped paying creditors. I found that the BEST SOURCE of advice was with an elder law attorney. Her first priority is that my parents keep as much money as possible for their care. She gave me advice (I can pay the debts and have little money for their care or focus on paying for their care first and let the creditors do the work of taking them to court.) Between her and another real estate attorney we were able to figure out a way to protect their assets as much as possible.

But this was COMPLICATED and it involved working with her, seeking out referrals with other attorneys with their own specialty.

Best of luck to you and your mom. I have found it a very difficult and nail biting experience to comb through their finances and discover more and more debts. It sucks. But I'm building a tolerance towards bad financial news and I'm learning a lot so I don't make the same mistakes as they did. I have done some incredibly heroic work for them to save them from some of the consequences of my dad's dementia. Sigh...but no applause from my family, I'm an invisible hero. :-) But I do pay myself on the back every so often, I feel proud at figuring out some loop holes with the help of a couple of different attorneys. I'm proud that that I rescued them from getting thrown out on the street due to unpaid property taxes. I couldnt have accomplished any of this with the elder law attorney.

best wishes!
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The IRS is a super creditor and can levy SS income for back taxes. You don't really need an elder law attorney for tax issues, you need either a tax attorney, CPA or Enrolled Agent with experience in dealing with the collection side of taxes (not just tax form preparation). How much tax are we talking about here?
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The answer is yes the IRS can tax your mom for back taxes, but it doesn’t have to happen. If you are referring to Federal taxes? Work with your CPA and ask them if they handle Offer in Compromise with the IRS. That would be my first step, before you make yourself legally liable for her taxes and possibly next step Attorney visit to complete POA.
Hope that helps a little!
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PS- You can probably get Free Legal Assistance for the Elderly on this. Getting documents from doctors, based on record of change in her meticulous behavior is key! The fact she was very diligent works on your behalf. The Free Legal Aid can tell you if pension is protected.
Her Social Security definitely is. I just dealt with Legal Aid Attorney on this. They had to research it, but they verified the information.
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Yhe follow applies to Federal IRS tax law. I think it will be most helpful.
There is a provision in publication on filing deadlines that states that if you are physically or mentally incapable I'm completing your tax returns during a given., That the time limits and deadlines do not apply! This also means if there is a year she is owed money back, and the IRS says too much time has passed, they are obligated to steal refund that money and apply it to the other tax balance! This is not used very often, and many IRS officials are unaware of it. I had to put the provision and get my congressman involved as an advocate.
The key is you need documentation from her doctor, explaining her condition the fact that she was able to hide it, but it is now obvious it had been pre-existing since approximately give a date based on the evidence of issues with business paperwork and other behavioral issues you may have noticed.
ThisThis provision may sldo spply to penalities...but I don't hsve it in front of me. It does apply to past refunds. It ststes, " no time limits apply"!
Also you have to push for your rights snd negotiate. You probably have to get IRS & state forms signed by her, authorizating access..and to negotiate on her bdhalf. Ask for the IRS to assign you an advocate...they van be very helpful.
Also know that the IRS would rather work out s plan eith you thsn seize non-liquid assets. They can't touch her Social Security or any other Federal Benefits.
They can pit a lien on her home but can't force her to sell it...you just need to pay balance owed at closing, like a mortgage.
They can seize bank accounts, but if Federal Benefits like Social Security went in, then you document that and they have to free up that money. I would set up a new account for all Protected Income!
Unpaid Sales Taxes and Employee Tax Withholdings are issues the state & Fed are sticklers on, but you can negotiate with them! My MIL had to do it when then husband embezzled without her knowing. That was harder, but she kept her house and got her accounts unfrozen.
Again, use your IRS advocate, Agency for Disabled, and Agency on Aging. Once you've done that get staff of your Congressial Rep. involved.
Finally, if she is in a place where she qualifies for or recieves other Federal Benefits, like Medicaid, Food Stamps, assistance with utilities, then they may make you sell/ liquidate the business, but she would be on Can Not Collect (CNC) status after you work with IRS. If she lives for 10 years on that status, Fed. IRS debt is forgiven.

Also if she used an accountant over the years, they are your first contact, as they can be held liable too. If she fired them, or stopped sending information regularly, use that to document start of failure to function.

Follow up any phone conversation with a letter back to IRS etc., stating " Regarding our discussion on (date) with (names) concerning....'. Then state
was discussed & close with, "Please contact me in writing if any of this is incorrect." The notes They make in The System have a way of disappearing or being overwritten. Send it Certified/ Return Reciept.

My father, an attorney taght me that years ago. Good Luck and patience and calm are your friends. Also know you have power and by law the IRS must work with you politely!!!!
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
Thank you so much Grace! That was very helpful!! :) And made me feel a lot more optimistic too!
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More than a decade ago, I had to take care of my parents’ tax return after my father’s death. He had been using an accountant in his small town who was not a CPA. In reviewing the return, I thought some of the numbers just didn’t seem right. It involved a property that my father had sold on contract a few years earlier. It turned out that the accountant had made a mistake converting a fraction to a percentage, resulting in the taxable portion of the sale being calculated at only one percent of the correct figure. I went back to the accountant who admitted his mistake and went back and corrected the current return and several previous returns. It resulted in a pretty big bill and the IRS and state both added interest, but there were no penalties assessed. It was a mistake, not fraud, and we corrected it as soon as it was discovered. I agree that you should gather up whatever records you have and follow Tacy’s advice. Show the tax people that you are making an honest effort to clear up this mess.
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akdaughter Aug 2019
I agree with you robinr, but the preparer told me that my parents had the use of that money over the years so the interest was their responsibility. To be honest, I didn’t like or trust him very much and I was dealing with sorting out my parents’ finances while managing my mother’s mild to moderate dementia. I didn’t have the time or energy to fight that battle.
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Nobody is going to jail for this...this is a civil matter, with no criminal intent. The demented taxpayer will not be going to jail for anything. Stop scaring people with uninformed speculation.
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Retired IRS Revenue Officer (tax collector) here answering your question. The bottom line answer is yes, they can take her assets to pay her debts. It's more detailed though. The IRS can take her assets like her bank accounts, and other property, even her home and car. It can also levy (garnish or seize) her Social Security income. She will get to keep part of the SS income but they can take it. The taxes that generally go unpaid to the IRS from a business are the taxes withheld from the employees wages (the Social Security and income that the employees get credit for, maybe never even knowing the company they worked for messed up and didn't turn in their money). Also, when a business owner doesn't turn in the withheld taxes, and the business portion of the SS tax, it is typical that they haven't filed or paid their own income taxes. That's on the federal side of things. For state and local taxes each state would have it's own laws on what assets or income can be reached, but they are not going to be able to reach her SS. The types of taxes involved here are more likely to be sales taxes, unemployment or labor & industries disability taxes, or state and local income taxes. With any of the agencies, try filing an appeal to waive some of the penalties and interest due on the unpaid taxes based on her mental incapacity, and provide some documentation. Chances are slim to get some relief, but maybe. There are also programs that allow the agency to legally compromise (reduce)the taxes owed. Laws vary, but the concept is that if the agency is shown that the delinquent taxpayer cannot fully pay the debt (taxes, penalties and interest) by the end of the statute of limitations (which also varies) they may settle for an upfront payment of what they think they can get. This requires a formal application and complete disclosure of income and assets for the agency to consider making a deal to give up the rest of what is legally owed to collect now. Ask the agencies about how to make An Offer in Compromise.
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Debster Aug 2019
This board is really a great place to get valid information and direction! We're really blessed to have many retired or currently working, professionals who hang out here and provide assistance.
Many thanks to you, the social workers, the psychologists and the many other people who help just because they can!
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Another consideration - and this could be helpful in many regards to many Americns... contact your federal representatives and/or senators. Many do not realize that those elected representatives that have staff to handle all KINDS of requests. From help with getting kids letters of recommendation to attend Westpoint to help with medical bills to - get this - finding out who in the world makes clockworks for outdoor floral clocks (I have inside information).

Your elected representatives/senators have case managers that likely specialize in areas pertinent to their districts, such as veterans affairs. They are - in my opinion - a vastly underutilized resource. Regardless of whether you voted for them, if they govern your region, they should be able to help.

Example - some years ago, during a bout of extended unemployment, I let my passport lapse. I didn't see myself leaving the country anytime soon. Then I got a contract job that, in short order, wanted to send me to Singapore on a 10-day assignment. I nearly panicked because the trip was 3 weeks away. I called one of my state's two senators, explained the situation and because the passport was within two years of expiration, they were able to expedite my request and get me a new one in about 4 days. They don't pay the associated fees - I had to assume that - but they pushed the paperwork through and there is no charge for the help of representatives' or senators' staff.

This grave tax/medical issue could be something they could help with. You have nothing to lose (but time, which may be precious I understand).
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
Thank you! (And you have me very intrigued about these outdoor floral clockworks!)
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I once had an employer that was not depositing IRA employee contributions or paying employer portions of social security, taxes, etc... When I found out, I reported them.

There was an audit performed. The IRS was more interested in helping to get this fixed. It took about six months to get through it. I know the employer had a CPA help provide the records that IRS requested. I believe the employer was fined, but no jail time. And this employer did this with full knowledge.

Mom will not go to prison. Just do whatever the IRS requests. Help in every way you can.

Tacy's guidance will be a tremendous help.
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worriedinCali Aug 2019
My MILs former partner was willingly/knowingly being paid under the table and neither he or his employer were reporting anything to the IRS or pay taxes. Something happened and the employer got caught & audited. No one was arrested. Don’t know what happened to the employer, they are still in business (they did have to lay some people off) and MILs partner had to pay back taxes + penalties to the tune of $40,000. At least that’s his story. I do know for a fact that he
did owe the IRS a lot of money and his social security was garnished. And he had to keep his money separate from MILs to keep the IRS from seizing her money too. Or so he says.
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My friend was in a car accident and had a brain injury which caused him to completely forget to file taxes for sometime. The IRS did catch up with him. The agent was actually understanding and kind. I’m not sure if they took this into account and still charged him late penalties/interest but they did help him sort out his taxes and then give him a payment plan that could work for him.
So situations like yours and his happen probably more often than we think.
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Listen to tracy022. She seems to know what she is talking about but please don’t try to do this on your own. There are a lot of doom merchants whose posts you should scroll past. This cannot be the first time something like this has happened
Salvation Army seems to be a good place to seek advice and where to go and who to see. They have a lot of resources to help people with financial problems and mess Look online for help in your area but don’t try to be cheap about it. Why not get your representative to make tentative approach to IRS?
I think you may be surprised at how reasonable the government may be
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
Thank you. I do need to get in contact with a representative. With the aging population and the rise of dementia, things like this must be much more common than we think. And great suggestion with the Salvation Army! :)
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Get her to a lawyer who specializes in settling tax situations with the IRS! Now!!!!
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here is a lot of scare stuff here that doesn’t help. In cases where there is no deliberate fault, the tax authorities here and in most places still want the tax that wasn’t paid, but they don’t necessarily use their powers for fines, penalties, or (with luck) interest. It is often possible to amend or lodge past returns, which can help too.

Tacy’s advice is great. Collect up all the information you can, before you start incurring bills from accountants or lawyers. My suggestion mirrors Tacy’s about building a relationship with an individual in the Tax Department. Start while you are flustered, worried, at a loss about what to do etc – you want them to feel sorry for you, which is fully justified. I messed up our farm tax for about four years (in spite of being an accountant, though not a tax specialist). I was distraught. The wonderful lady in the Tax Office sorted out all my old returns and explained it to me. It cost me nothing besides the amount we should have paid in the first place. I hope that you have good luck too!
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OurOldHouse Aug 2019
Thank you <3
It helps so much to know that there are people here who are so understanding of this situation and willing to help - it really makes me feel like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel!
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What you really need is a very good accountant to unravel and update the business & personal tax situations. They would be used to dealing with the day to day working of a business & also having processed hundreds+ tax returns. One that is registered to deal with the IRS on an in person basis & can represent the person in dealing with the IRS. Most lawyers are not set up to deal with these type of tax issues and/ or they will hire an accountant anyway & charge more$. You will need the lawyer for other things.
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Tacy, wouldn't the payroll company pay the taxes? I am confused that they would not bill everything to moms company and take care of everything, deposits, returns, w2s.

Is this standard in your part of the country?

In AZ and NV the payroll company is essentially the employer and pays everything through their accounts and you get a bill for payroll period. If you don't pay they fire your employees.

I am just curious because it seems like an odd practice for what I am used to.

You are so generous with your knowledge, thank you for sharing, it is truly appreciated.
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Isthisrealyreal Jul 2019
So it is different, all of our payroll companies, that I interviewed anyway, they do labor leasing and call it P/R services.

Thank you. I am happy that there are those that know this like the back of their hand.

But you are the smartest cookie I have met in a long while.
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IRS can seize any funds in her name. Taxes are considered super debts and they take the money however they can. Get a lawyer to try to negotiate a better deal. Owing taxes can impact many things.
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Of course it may be different with the IRS, but in my experience tax officials can tell the difference between a habitual chancer/rogue and a person who has always been a most meticulous, compliant record keeper but through untoward circumstances, such as ill health, has dropped all her plates.

They will want their money, but they won't be vile about it. Lawyer or accountant...? Other posters know better than I do whose assistance it's best to seek.
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cwillie Jul 2019
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs officers sure sound different than Canadian ones, it seem like the evil b--tards like to go after the little ones and have been known to appeal if a judgment goes against them.
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