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... unless you assign me power of attorney.


Mom: "No, I will not assign you Power of Attorney"


Me: "Then I cannot possibly help you preform your financial obligations"


Mom: "Well, Im not going to give you Power of Attorney"


Me: "then you are just going to have to find a way to help yourself"


Mom: "Well, all right then, nevermind."


Phone line goes dead.


She called me this morning (currently in LTC after hospital stay) and left a message that she needed me to help her get her bills paid. I called her back prepared to tell her that she needs to assign me POA for me to help her do anything.


It'll will be interesting to see how this week transpires - whether the case managers discharge her or ?


What a mess. She's a real piece of work! This is a woman who thinks I'm going to rob her bank accounts and put her in a nursing home. I have no interest in breaking any laws. I've got my own bank accounts , and estate in order - really don't need her $$. I'm ready to see the state take her to the bank.


Just wanted to get that off my chest.


Anyone else only child with irrational narcissistic delusional stubborn elderly mother who lives by herself and has demonstrated that she is losing her ability to take care of herself but is insistant that she can live in a huge house and still drive with no problems at all, but yet in the last two years she has:


Filed incorrect income taxes , and get audited, side swiped a fire truck, manages to allow a pipe burst in her house and flood her 1st floor (WHILE SHE WAS HOME), constantly gets sick with the flu, self- medicates enough to develop a serious peptic ulcer, somewhat incontinent (at times), has AFib, high blood pressure, falls on occasion - more and more as time goes on . .and shuts herself in the house to the point she creates her own bio-hazzard sphere - which is why she always gets sick. She's lost all her friends (because of her attitude and her delusional stories, and they finally saw the way she treated me)


ARRRRGH! (ok . take a deep breath)


What a pity eh?

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If she's in LTC, refuse to take her home. You can recommend the local welfare/adult protective step in and begin the process of closing out her house/other assets to pay for her care. You will likely have a case-care/discharge meeting. At that time a decision must be made to release, keep, transfer, or pursue legal options. Her option is guardianship. Don't sign anything on Discharge day.

If she is not in a facility, but at home, the day you decide enough is enough, call the local welfare/adult protective office and request a home visit. Make sure you are there to provide information, show leaky areas etc.

Even though you don't have the power to do anything (because she won't permit you to help) Adult Protective can step in and obtain guardianship fast. It is unsafe and perhaps viewed as abusive to allow someone to live in this situation. You have knowledge of the situation so could be legally challenged for NOT taking appropriate action to keep her safe. Allowing or ignoring her to continue as is might be criminal in your county or state, so be very careful. To keep her safe she will have to live in a medically supervised facility.

Keep in mind she has some assets to sale - like her house - and that is a means to pay for her care.

My spouse generally trusted and cooperated when he was entering the world of LTC. That said, once at LTC, I met MANY families encountering similar situations as you are dealing with. Let the facilities and counties deal with this and save you lots of headaches and heartaches.
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BeeKee, Our licensed fiduciary also is also certified as a guardian, estate administrator, case manager and elder care advisor. She’s not a neurologist, but she regularly visits (I live in another state) and can advise me on care homes when it’s time to move her into care.
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Beekee Feb 2020
How much do you pay for this?
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I’m so sorry that you are struggling with this stressful situation. Cleary she needs your help. She won’t cooperate. Your hands are tied. You must live with a migraine headache. I hope your situation becomes resolved soon.
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Blue24 Feb 2020
Actually IBS and grey hair sprouting. *sigh*
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Can you get a springing financial power of attorney done? Only valid if person is found to be incapacitated. Maybe emphasize that it will only be a temporary thing until she gets better.

I believe that you would still need to go through court process for this type of POA to be activated. Any attorneys here that can help with process? Apologies to any attorneys that already commented.

I have similar situation. Also cannot seem to find a springing POA form for CO resident. Most are durable, so start right away.
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Riverdale Feb 2020
Alot of companies or institutions that would require a POA will not accept a springing one. I know because I had that before I was able to get a durable one. I know you are trying to help. I just question whether poster should go to the trouble of obtaining a springing POA which may prove inadequate.
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Yup. Sadly a familiar theme. Guardianship should be the last resort. I have had to pursue guardianship/conservatorship for my mother because she wouldn’t assign the authority to me properly. I just found out that a bond has to be secured for 80% of the value of her estate. It is basically an insurance policy against her being swindled by her guardian. This will cost my mom $10k a year. Stupidity! My mom’s stubbornness is going to cost her big time. I can’t imagine the kind of charges to the estate happen in a third party guardianship/conservatorship.
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Just call utility company & tell them she’s in rehab & needs more time to pay. Hopefully that will bide some time. Hugs 🤗
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rovana Feb 2020
But be very careful not to give your name or info or they will consider you her contact.
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It's possible her mental and behavioral symptoms are coming from several causes--dementia, medical conditions, pre-existing mental illness or personality disorder getting worse, side effects of medications, or too-high doses of sleeping pills, tranquilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, opioids. Benzodiazepine tranquilizers are severely addictive, damaging to the mind, and frequently prescribed to the elderly. Strangely enough, large doses of benzodiazepines can cause agitation, rage, and paranoia, rather than sedation. Do you have any access to info on how many doctors she sees and how many prescription medications she takes? If she's in hospital/rehab, can you walk into her house and look for that info? A common pattern is for the person to rotate among several doctors, seeking prescriptions from each. She might be getting addictive pills from each doctor, and each doctor is not aware of the others. As long as you're sneaking around her house while she's not there, search for pills and pill bottles in secret hiding places. Remember that the pills inside a prescription bottle might not be the same pills named on the label, and pills might be hidden in any type of container. If she's addicted to benzos or opioids, she'll need medically supervised taper off to lower doses. Good luck.
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A complete neuro-psychiatric assessment for cognitive impairment/dementia takes about 2 hours to complete. Mostly paper and pencil tasks, some tests of following verbal and written instructions. A 10-year-old child could easily complete all of these tasks, but someone with cognitive impairment or dementia is guaranteed to flounder, no show-timing possible. My mother had these assessments done at a neurologist's office.
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dogparkmomma Feb 2020
My father in law primarily has vascular dementia. This manifests as issues with judgment, problem solving and high level function. He thought he was fine. He had neuro psych eval and was diagnosed with early cognitive impairment. We had a private driving eval and he passed that too. But his judgment about what was safe was shot. MIL with ALZ could not pass at all. So depending on type, some do better than others. He has since really declined but he was not really competent long before the testing showed it.
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My mother’s financial planner suggested hiring a fiduciary to handle my mother’s affairs after my mother somehow canceled my father’s supplemental insurance and she had to pay 20% of his hip replacement and rehab. She charges $100 an hour but it’s so worth it. It didn’t take long for her to put everything on autopay and now she monitors my mother’s spending and makes a quarterly visit to assess her competence. When the time comes, the fiduciary will help me make decisions about elder care. This takes me out of her line of fire, as I, also an only child, always gets blamed for everything. I can just play dumb sand say, gee, I don’t know, ask your business manager.
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Beekee Feb 2020
In what way is a financial planner capable of assessing someone's competence? Just wondering.
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Stand firm. It's her life, so it's her decision to have it her way.
I feel for you. You're in a hard place right now. HUGS
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Even though you CAN do some things (if she calls the power company and gives you permission, for instance), I would not do any of them without the POAs in place. POA for Health Care (usually needs to be activated) and DPOA (usually effective at signing) are my two dealbreakers if I am going to give as much to caregiving someone as she seems to need.

After years of caregiving through the slow and agonizing descent of dementia for 2 people, I told my brother (when his care was dumped in my lap due to a death in the family) that POA is his choice - and I am fine with whatever choice he makes, but I will NOT take on what is a huge responsibility with none of the authority. It is hard enough to deal with cognitive and physical decline when you have all of the paperwork in place.

If I am going to be expected to fulfill wishes or act in best interests, I need to be able to do that. Also, if you don’t trust me enough to be that person for you, then you shouldn’t trust me enough for all of the other stuff. They don’t get to have it both ways.

Just my take, but I know that many other experienced caregivers on this site would likely echo that thought.

I am sorry. The paranoia can be very hurtful. Try now to read up on dementia... even if she is not diagnosed at this point, you are dealing with MANY of the symptoms... educating yourself on it will help you to build a protective skin. She won’t be able to hurt you so much and that will help you keep a clearer head while you help her. It will also help to keep your life intact while you navigate this hard time. Good luck to you.
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cherokeegrrl54 Feb 2020
Excellent advice!!
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Has she tried an auto-debit, budget-billing account? It's helped many keep their bill paid, the power on, and less stress like what you're going through.

This has helped many elders, stressed family caregivers, adult children, busy working adults, absent-minded college students, frequent travelers, and just many who like the convenience.

Will she/you talk to a power company representative (while you are present in her room) to explain how this is done? She would need to give them her bank routing number & account number. Maybe Mom would allow you to help that way. No checks to write/mail, no postage/mailing hassles or worry about late payments. She could call later to cancel that method of payment for any reason.

Cable TV, water, gas, house payments, insurance payments among others often offer these options, usually at little or no extra fee.
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Blue24 Feb 2020
We tried that last year. During the time she was in the hospital and rehab, I just did it - I had her passwords, collected her mail, paid the bills online. When she returned home, my husband and I suggested she allow me access to her one bank account(online only) to make sure I would have oversight and keep the 'flow' going. Something triggred her and she almost pulled out all her money because she thought that once I had any kind of access, I would steal her money. The bank associate was very kind and realized at that time my mom was operating a brain that was 'mis-firing'. So, we just let it go and continued on our way leaving my mom to her own devices.

That is why from here on out . .I won't do a thing without a POA.
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What your Mom needs to do is cal, each of her utility companies and have you put down as the Contact person and that you have permission to talk to them. My Mom did this before she ever needed it.
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Blue24 with POA technically you can do all her banking business, do her income taxes, and you can even sell her house. But she has to be INCOMPETENT for you to be able to do this. You have no power over her. The only way to have power over her is to get guardianship of her. But that won’t happen if she is competent.
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Blue, depending upon your state and the wording of the document, POA doesnt give you any power over another person. It allows you to represent their wishes. It allows you to pay their legitimate bills with their money.

Has a lawyer explained this to your mom?
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My mother recently neglected to give me paperwork from a law firm that represented the will of a close friend who had died. She did not respond in a timely manner and I don't know what the status will be. I am an only child and have POA for her. Before obtaining that she was making a disaster of her finances

Some days I am so tired of being her daughter. She is not evil but has had erratic behavior for decades. She claims she thinks she responded to the law firm but even if she did it was likely in a handwritten note which is impossible to read. All she had to do was give me the paperwork so that I could represent her interests.

I think you just stand your ground and do nothing for her without the POA. At times I think most of these elder people think their own children are just out to sabotage them and leave them bereft. It simply is so very exhausting.
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I have POA for my mom, but have not had to use it to help her with these things. All you have to do is call the utility, credit card, bank, whatever, have her tell them that her daughter has permission to talk to them, and hand you the phone. I've never had a problem with this.
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I have requested the following (two weeks ago): Competence , Cognitive, Pysch, Neuro and to file something with the DMV for a Request for Re-evaluation, or revocation if necessary. But without POA - my power over her is nil. She's adamant that I have NO control over her. But she's going to realize soon that she will have no control either!

She's desparate to hang on to her independence . .I get that. But there comes a point when she's got to realize that she is becoming more frail (heart for certain), sicker more often(lungs are always getting infected), her hearing is shot (refuses to wear HAids), mobility is declining big time, and should be adjusting her lifestyle accordingly. God forbid she kills anyone with her car, or puts the house/neighbors in danger or really screws up her finances to take care of herself for the rest of her remaining years.

I have had many conversations with her over the last few years regarding her aging/living situation - and all she does is shut them down. I knew I would face this - I just didn't know how much it really hurts inside to have my own mother not trust me to help her properly.

I'm in no position to put myself or my husband at risk legally, or financially either.
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rovana Feb 2020
It soundsl ike she has been mentally ill a long time. You cannot fix that.
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Do. Not. Budge.
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This might not be a popular answer...or suggestion, but is there any way you could try to get these bills payed at least for the interim. It will create a bigger mess for you with the utility companies to have then turned back on or have food go bad or pipes freeze again. Buy yourself some time, instead of borrowing trouble.
I am technically an 'only' as I have a brother in AL due to mental illness so I'm the one who has to deal with things on the front line. I also don't have Durable/financial POA just health POA. I do her bills paid with her monies. She is back in her own apartment. I keep an eye on what I can.
She is my brother's rep payee so for me to be financial POA that might open up a whole can of worms.
I also see our similarities as far as driving and other things we can't control.
I decided to help her when I can and the other stuff, I don't suffer anymore because it was making me sick.
good luck and stay strong and big HUGS
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My utility companies will take $$$ from anyone
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rovana Feb 2020
But could there be a problem if OP used Mom's money to pay the bills? Without a POA, how would she do that? Especially if mom thinks OP is trying to steal from her? Sometimes you have to think through possible consequences of well-meant actions.  And is it wise to do anything to enable mom to stay in the house?  If there are no utilities, could you ask for a wellness check and get APS involved?
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Blue, can't any doc at the hospital perform a simple cognitive/memory test on her? I don't think that's a test she can game very easily... I would ask the SW if this is an option. Also, have you ever "explained" to your mom what happens to people in her situation who don't select a legal advocate? I know from personal experience this doesn't always work to convince them, (especially if they have dementia) but at least you'll know you did your due diligence. Peace to you...
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Blue24 Feb 2020
Regarding the simple cognitive test - she passed. They told me they're working some other test. But I'm not sure what or which one yet.

As far as explaining to her:
We (me and the agency that I hired for her last year when she returned home from rehab) . . explained to her several times that if she didn't get her affairs in order legally that the state would come in a take over - and use up all her money. She accused all of us of 'ganging up' on her.
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Yes, I would speak with the social worker at the place where Mom is and explain that your mother will not allow you to help, indeed makes it impossible to help her, and that she is living in the manner you described to us. Let them know she will be returning home without any real supportive network, and that she is currently making a mess of bills, cannot keep utilities on, is driving while unsafe and etc. Suggest that they may want to involve Adult Protective Services as your hands are really tied. They may request a State Guardianship, and may bet some needed testing to prove it is needed. If Mom "passes" of course, it isn't needed, and you can help in small ways. For instance, give her the phone numbers for the utility companies. Take her checkbook to her with the bills, mail the bills for her.
Do know that if there is a court designated guardianship by the state then you will have little to no "say" in Mom's situation going forward. They may consult with you; they may not. Wishing you luck going forward.
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Yeap . . .I'm in contact with the case managers. They are keeping me informed and totally see what is happening. She 'showtimes' so well that no doctor can seem to get a declaration of incompetence or diagnosis of anything. They know my hands are tied.

BB - I value your input and support. Thanks for the note on APS also.
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Sounds like your mother is also suffering from dementia and/or Alzheimer's, in addition to the rest of her health issues! Which makes her even MORE irrational, unreasonable and paranoid than she once was. Leaving YOU an even bigger mess to clean up, huh?

UGH. Old age isn't for sissies. And neither is the burden caused to the children (especially us 'only children') that have to deal with ALL of the crises that keep happening. I am lucky b/c I had no other choice but to place both of my folks in Assisted Living back in 2014 after dad broke a hip & rehab would not release him back to independent living with my gem of a mother. He passed away 5 years ago & mother is now in the Memory Care section of the ALF and on the 7th of her 9 lives, at 93, after 41 falls, countless hospitalizations, ER visits, a rehab stay, CHF, AFIB, severe neuropathy in her legs, and about 100 other issues including a hideous attitude. But hey, at least I get to go home after a visit with her and I get to hang up the phone after a snarky call and get back to my own life, right?

Wishing you the best of luck with the 'pity' these women have created for ALL of us.
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Stand firm. Call the SW at the facility and find out what their plans are for mom...you need to let them know that there will be no utilities at her home.

Suggest to them that they might want to contact APS so that either the state or the facility can take guardianship.
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cherokeegrrl54 Feb 2020
Best suggestion yet!!!
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