Is it legal, responsible, (morally ethical?) to dip into our mom's savings before she's deceased to provide for the needs of family members?

I do think there is several issues with doing that.

Really, on top,of everything else...you and Sis would leave yourselves open to elder abuse too. (Taking advantage of elders financially is elder abuse.....)

I would not go along with it. Moral and ethical aside...there is also criminal issues. Doing what is proposed would be a breach of the fiduciary responsibility...just say no.

his lawyer is wrong. You cannot impoverish your mother to enrich rest of family. I would bet lawyer knows IRS taxes and not state Medicaid law. The money is for vulnerable elder, not state to pay for her. Get your mother a lawyer that specializes in Medicaid. You will find the experts and armchair quarterbacks are frequently out for themselves. Your lawyer is right. And if it goes to court and your parent gets a fort appointed guardian, there will be even less left. Shame on sibling. No estate until she dies.

Court appointed. Darn auto correct. By the way Medicaid facilities will do a five year lookback on transfers from the account which I'd bet has mom as beneficiary and the rest of you collect when she dies as remainder. Hope the outlaw has kids that treat them the same way.

Run, don't walk to your nearest Elder Care Attorney [they are the experts on Trusts and Medicaid] before anyone lays a finger on your Mother's Trust. That Trust is for her and her care, not anyone else care.

I bet your parents were frugal and saved every dime they could, my parents were the same way. I wouldn't even dream of touching any of my parents money for myself while they were still alive.

I cannot believe that one relative wanted to remove Mom from her own trust and have the money distributed before she had even passed. Sorry that won't work with Medicaid and the 5 year financial look back. There might be exceptions as each State has different requirements and programs.

Medicaid would see that money passed to relatives and would brand it as "gifts", thus Medicaid would subtract those $$$ amounts from your Mother's care. Mom would then need to pay out of pocket, but oops, there isn't enough money left for her to do that. Now what? Someone would then need to take Mom to their house and care for her until she was eligible for Medicaid. Depending on how much was removed from the Trust, it could take a few years.

It's terrible and so very common how money can tear a family apart.

Morally, ethically? No way. It might fracture the family but you and sis will stay out of jail. I don't mean to be snarky but think how this sounds:

Put dear old mum in a cut rate joint to save money so family members can cash in early. I would rather suffer the rath of the "needy" family members. Let em yell. Don't do this.

First, only your mother or father can change the trust. I'm appalled that anyone, including an in-law would suggest dipping into the trust.

Second, for the record, your mother cannot be "removed" from the trust. She's not a beneficiary, she's a grantor of assets allocated for and eventually transferred to heirs and beneficiaries named in the pour-over will and trust.

I honestly can't even comprehend the audacity, selfishness and greediness of the in-law who made that suggestion (request?). It literally "blows my mind!"

Fourth, even if annual payouts are provided for in the Trust, ALL the conditions must be met before these payouts can be made and payouts must be made in strict accordance with those Trust terms.

Fifth, as Trustee, you would be in flagrant violation and abuse of your mother's intents and wishes, and of the Trust. Those are grounds for legal action by the heirs/beneficiaries. While I don't have as much insight into guardianship, I would think it's grounds for breach of your duties in that position. The judge who appointed you would have grounds to remove you from your position.

Sixth, not having read the Trust, I still question advice of the attorney who said it can be legally done, but the real issue is exactly how those allocations are addressed in the Trust and on what the distribution depends (i.e., are they annual distributions during her lifetime or only after her death?)

Seventh, if the family is fractured, that's unfortunate, but your obligation is to your mother now and the beneficiaries later (unless the trust specifically provides for annual payouts during your mother's lifetime).

Nevada1Linda, your lawyer is giving you sound advice. It is illegal, immoral and unethical for the distribution you suggest. It would also NOT work for Medicaid, they will see the "gift" and refuse the application. Ask YOUR attorney if the trust can create a loan to these needy folks, with prevailing interest rates, on a Medicaid compliant loan form.

My 91 year old mother is living with me in Georgia. She was diagnosed with mild dementia about 4 years ago. Recently, I made arrangements to take a week off to work on my dissertation. To do that, I placed Mom in a Respite Care unit of an Assisted Living space. I also made arrangements for the ladies who would periodically 'sit' with Mom for me so I could grocery shop, go the doctor, etc. , to be there with her every day. So she had familiar faces. These ladies texted me every day upon arrival and departure with reports on Mom. She refused to eat, would not sleep in the bed because it wasn't hers, wouldn't drink water, cursed at everyone all the time. And the list goes on. When I went to bring her home, I was cursed out and she began to act as if she couldn't walk, didn't recognize places, etc. The staff said she kept wandering around, asking where she was. Now that we are at home, her behavior is a little off to me. She felt warm so I tried to take her temperature. When asked to open her mouth, she parted her lips and the look in her eyes was distant. I am not sure what to do. I can no longer handle this by myself. I am chained to the house for the most part. Mom can't afford assisted living and I'm told that her monthly social security income makes her ineligible for Medicaid. I am at a loss and its beginning to affect my health. Any suggestions?

Too bad your siblings need money. Trusts are set up to pay for the person who originated the trust (signee), with beneficiaries AFTER she dies. Leave the money alone or you could be in legal trouble, and you don't need money in jail. If she is in "good health" she could live another 15 yrs.

Nevada1Linda this is a terrible idea. Your lawyer is right, there is a conflict of interest. The other commenters are right--she would not be eligible for Medicaid because of the look back period. IF the trust states specifically that the other beneficiaries (besides mom) are entitled to funds paid out before mom's death then you and your sister as trustees can do that legally. Just know that if it fractures the family, that's not on you. You are doing the right thing by protecting mom and performing your duties.

Quite often the siblings and /or their relatives of an aging mother or dad revert to the vultures on the limb of a dead tree. One buzzard says "Waite hell ,lets kill somebody" . Sometime you can listen to siblings/ relatives talk about what they are going to spend their inheritance on when grand parents or parents crock.

This is not moral nor ethical-the fact you are even asking makes me think you already know this.
As the member of a family who DID have sibs "dip into" the proverbial pot long before dad or mother had passed---it caused some anger and pain. They "inherited early" $100,000 (brother) and $60,000 (sister). Dad has now passed and while mother is in relatively good health and remains in another brother's home---I know that the remaining sibs will inherit about $10,000 a piece, if even that. (My POA brother shared that with my, so I would be able to process the "anger" long before the reality hit.)
I'm not angry, I am sad a disappointed in my mooching sibs who took advantage of my parents for years before dad died. I expect nothing to come from Mother's estate. Kids shouldn't.
When Grandma was in a NH and actively dying, mother asked me to help her begin the sorting process and cleaning of her condo. This was in accordance with Grandma's choice. She knew she was dying and had specific requests we were carrying out. It still felt "too soon" and we were uncomfortable doing it, but we could double check with Grandma about what she wanted. (She was 96 and not able to ever have returned to live independently). Mom used her own funds and was reimbursed by the estate after the funeral.
Get a lawyer involved. And good luck!!

Nevada, you are guardian and trustee of your mother's estate and her person. Her money is hers to use for her care as long as she is alive. Inheritance comes after a person dies. It is your job as guardian to protect your mother's interest. Her money does not belong to her children yet. I am appalled, to tell the truth, that there are children who would even suggest doing this. What they are basically saying is they want to rob her money and put her expenses on the taxpayers of the country. It won't work like that. And you would end up in a lot of trouble as guardian for failing to do what you were supposed to do. I would wonder what kind of mess your siblings were in that they would even suggest doing this.

BTW, Medicaid won't pay for most assisted living facilities. It is there for people in nursing facilities when they run out of resources. People need to protect Medicaid money so it is there for people who really need it.

Get busy helping the needy relatives solve their financial difficulties on their own. Do they need a babysitter so they can look for a job or take a second job? Do they need information on how THEY might get on public assistance instead of mom? Do they need an hour with a financial advisor who could share with them how they might better manage their resources. You might be thinking, they wouldn't want me that involved in their personal business. Well they have their nose pretty far into your and sisters personal business. When the time comes and mom is gone, if there are funds left to distribute, I suspect they'll need them then as well. Perhaps more so than they do now.
It's a tough job you have. Your mom and dad trusted you and sister to follow their wishes. Dr Phil has a line, "I wouldn't expect you to substitute your judgement for mine" and then there is a BUT. In your case, "but my attorney advises me otherwise". Then don't say anything else except provide an address for the food bank etc. I don't mean to be insensitive to your siblings situation just help them shift their focus from what they perceive as the answer. Good luck.

Not sure how the name came about - but it is called a TRUST, after all.

All good answers. Go with ur lawyer. Mom and Dad worked and made sure their future was secure. What a wonderful thing ur Dad did for your Mother. She deserves to be comfortable for the rest of her life and u and your sister don't deserve this hassel. Looks like ur Mom put in charge the two children she could count on. Tell the rest that the money was set up for Moms care. They will just have to wait until Mom passes to get what is left. Explain the Medicaid part because....they may have to pay for her care if the money is used up before her death. I wouldn't even mention loans because I doubt they would be paid back.

Protect yourself & do what is what the intent of trust is - if someone is in financial difficulties then THAT IS THEIR OWN DAMNED FAULT - it is not up to you or the trust to bail them out - if where you live [not here] allows them a loan then ask that at least 1 or 2 other co-sign & see how many come forth to do so [THAT WILL SHUT UP REST OF FAMILY WHO MIGHT GET ON YOUR BACK BUT WON'T CO-SIGN] - also will when/if a default comes you can get $$$ from them

I firmly believe that all $$$ earned by an elder belongs to that elder & any overage is a bonus - fortunately I have been able to increase mom's net worth so that she is worth slightly more than what she was when I took over her affairs - that means about 40 to 60 hours a month of my time - but that also means her generated income takes care of her - maybe you should make sure you are getting good advice to make her income=her care costs - if you don't come close then DON'T TOUCH A PENNY OF HER MONEY OTHER THAN HER CARE - otherwise just take a screwdriver & put it in either ear & turn it because that's what you will be doing to yourself later on

This is financial elder abuse. Your mother deserves all the comfort she can get. Squandering her assets while she is still alive is immoral. If you and your sister allow this to happen I bet, your siblings will get greedy and keep coming for more....money is the root of all evil. It will tear the family apart. You are all beneficiaries ONLY after her death. I am sure they can find some other means to get out of their situation.

You didn't say what the urgent need is. Example, your sibling needs transmission work, they have a job but struggle to make ends meet, would your mom help them before she needed care? Or is the scenario that they live beyond their means?

My guess is Nevada1Linda gave everyone some cash so they could go to Black Friday shopping. :-(

I imagined this same question if it was for the kids' college fund. One of the in-laws suggest that Junior's college fund could be raided and he could apply for a scholarship and go to one of the community colleges that are cheaper. There's all kinds of ways to save money.

Thank you all for your thoughtful, insightful, sympathetic and creative answers. Your encouragement has helped me to peacefully stay the course of responsibility and loving care for mom. I was never tempted to waver from that nor would I ever consider breaking the law by acting outside of the trust agreement confines, but your words gave me some needed strength. I asked my attorney to send an email letter out to my sisters and explain as clearly as possible exactly why we cannot begin using mom's money. He did that beautifully but already I have received strong push-back from one sis. With all due respect to my family, I agree with those of you who said that financial problems are usually due to lifestyle choices and that those who need mom's money before she has passed would do better to seek public assistance for themselves rather than for her (putting her on Medicaid). I'm sure this battle will be ongoing and I, for some reason, will be seen as uncaring and out of touch with the less fortunate in the family, but I will continue to take my responsibility seriously and with integrity. I owe it to Mom.

Linda, thanks for sharing with us your decision on addressing others' desire for the funds. It's comforting to know that efforts to offer advice have been worthwhile. And I compliment and support you on your very ethical and realistic decision, which is also a compassionate decision for your mother's needs.

Follow the letter of the trust...that's why the trust was established...do not under any circumstances cave to the pressure of anyone....As for the relatives...let 'em rot. IF there's anything left AFTER your mother dies, and expenses are paid, to be dispursed, THEN and only THEN should distributions be made. It's too bad the relatives need money. That is called, Get a Job, sacrifice, scale down on lifestyle and pay your own way. "Offing" the relatives is not an option.

You have siblings that could use financial help? One of the in-laws wants to put her in a Medicaid facility so he can snatch up your mother's money? How about this idea: Tell him to go into a Medicaid facility, and your mother will continue to use HER OWN MONEY to pay for assisted living. Tell him that he can go to the social services office & apply for welfare benefits.

If your siblings decide to split from you because you are not willing to do what they want, so be it. I wouldn't want to be associated with family members that are that greedy, selfish & uncaring. The money belongs to YOUR MOTHER, not her children----and your siblings financial issues are likely due to their poor choices & living above their means.

I guess I'm a little nieve her but it always surprises me how children feel they r entitled to their parents money. Also surprises me that parents feel they must leave something to their children.

Money for mom/dad is theirs until they pass away - it is illegal/immoral/unethical to dip into those funds - here we can't even have them to be a very secured morgagee so as to not comprimize the desire of original wishes

IF YOUR SIS WANTS MONEY THEN LET HER EARN IT - she has some gaul to even ask & then after the lawyer's email to give you trouble over it ... you now know where she come from & reject any advice she gives from now on -

As P.O.A. I ask for input but basically It is MY voice only that counts - if you are not grossely enriching yourself [given number of hours put in you can never come out to positive] but doing what is ethical then you are doing a great thing for your mom & SCREW THOSE WHO WANT $$$$ NOW NOT WHEN/IF THEY DESERVE IT

That's shocking! How dare you dip into your mother's money!

She didn't. Don't worry, Llama. She was just looking for support about why it was a bad idea.

JessieBelle: Gotcha!