Depends on how the accounts are set up. Some accounts have instructions for the funds to go back to the estate, many do not. In most cases the money is owned by the joint holders, but if you have siblings there could be some very unhappy people. You need to give more information. My brother is jointly on my mother's accounts with the orders to divide it with me. We will see if that happens. As she has it now, it it totally his upon her death.
Lorain, I don't know what you mean by "my share." If you jointly own the account, all of it is yours when your mother dies, unless the account is set up some other way.
If the account is supposed to be shared upon your mother's death, it might be best to set that up in advance, especially if the persons to do the sharing may be upset about the arrangement.
Lorain, do you mean now, or after your mother passes? Do you have siblings? Does your mother have siblings? Does your mother have a will? All of those factors will affect the answer to your question.
If I understand you correctly, if mom specifies that $100 is to be divided equally amongst her four children in her will, but eldest child is joint owner of $50 which is held in the checking account, upon mom's death, that goes entirely to eldest child as joint owner? Is that correct? Lorain also mentioned CD's...do you happen to know if the same rules apply to CD's as to the bank account? So if the remaining $50 was in CD's, and only eldest child was on the CD as joint owner, hypothetically, eldest child would own everything (liquid assets) upon mom's death, regardless of what the will says. Am I correctly stating what you have said? (Money muddles my otherwise fine brain!)
Joint accounts with survivorship go to the survivor. Otherwise they can be worded to go back to the estate. The survivor is the other joint holder. Many elderly people do not realize when they put a child on a checking account, it is the child's when they die unless specified. That leaves the other children with nothing from this account.
For instance, my mother has between 40 and 80 thousand in one checking account. She put my brother on it as a joint holder. As far as I know he has rights of survivorship. It is his money. She assures me he will "share" with me. I am not so sure but nothing I can do about it. He is on this account after all to pay her bills when needed. To quote her, "that is the way I want it."
Now if he keeps the money, it will ruin what is left of a shabby relationship anyway. I would never do that to him. But time will tell. So if you want to take the money after your Mom's death, you probably can but think about the damage this may do to your relationships. It is not worth it.
This can actually be a way of avoiding probate in estate planning. My parents just went thru the process of setting up a family trust. My mother did not want to do this, my dad did. After 69 years of marriage, she didn't want to "co-mingle" her money and his!! So the attorney told her if the accounts were joint with me (I'm an only child.) the money would go directly to me upon her death, no probate or anything!
cdeh61, I'm in a similar situation as an only child with joint accounts as well as securities with my mother with right of survivorship, but not with my step-dad who does have a joint account with my mother, and other accounts all on his own. Her will leaves everything she owns, has bought, has inherited and has been given to me. His will splits everything with her and his 3 children, but nothing to me.
cdeh61, the problem is when there are other children and the joint holder is not into sharing. My mother has a good bit of money and I hope my brother is honest, he always seems to be. But who wants to "hope" their siblings will share. You parents making a trust is the smart thing to do. you are lucky. :)
All joint bank accounts are considered 50% owned by each joint holder.Upon death of 1st account holder the remaining account holder is considered the owner of all funds. Unless there is a POD designation. Since the account is a joint account (and not held in the name of a trust) the POD (Pay On Death) designation - beneficiary - should have been done when account was opened. If not, can be done at any time as long as account holders are competent. With no POD joint owner is assumed to own all monies at death of 1st joint account holder. You can also have multiple beneficiaries - i.e. 1/2 to estate of Mom and 1/2 to remaining account holder - then the part going to estate would be governed by Mom's will. Otherwise, bank accounts POD designation (or lack of) will govern who gets monies in that account. And overrides any designation in her will. Good time to review all bank, investment, life insurance, etc. to make any needed updates and be sure beneficiaries are what Mom intends.
I would think that it depends-on how the account was set up in the beginning, how the legal signatures are noted on the cd, how the legal documents will define if you get the cd cash out, etc. should something happen to your mom. I recommend you speak with a legal representative who can give you the correct answers to your questions. My brother would have been in a similar situation with the home he has lived in all of his life, with my mother, when she had a change in condition recently. Upon advocating for my brother and my mother, my mother several years ago got a change in her ownership deed to her home, placing herself and my brother as joint tenents on the deed. This is just one way she took care of ensuring my brother had a home after she was recently placed in a health care long term facility. She also has a power of attorney for both health and finanical decisions. There are little things we cannot reasonably understand that a legal represtative can help us interpret what is the best in this situation. Good luck-hope things work best for you and your mom-Linda
Your answers are knowledge based and give me insight into client issues they have often been able to share with mr. Our clients who are unsure of financial issues with these type issues are not sure how to proceed. Please refer me to how to refer others to your resources should they have similar problems. This is the best approach and makes sense. Best regards, Linda Smith
madge & cmagnum, yes being an "only" eliminates many of those problems, but it also means you are the sole responsible person when it comes to care and difficult decisions - a blessing & a curse. Thank god, I have a supportive husband & kids who help with these things!
Unfortunately, some parents think one child or another can do no wrong --they also keep saying stuff flike "I treat all of you equally" when they clearly do not. It is very unfortunate. It can definitely destroy family realationships, in ways that cannot be mended.
You, being the joint holder, are in a position of "power" , which you may choose to use or not. IF the accounts have you as joint holder, because that constitutes your portion of an estate to which other relatives get an equal portion, that is one thing.
But if the money is gradually all used up, and you get left with nothing but bills, while the other inherit the rest of the estate, you end up shafted.
Bottom line is, estates of others were never ours to start with. It is UNbelievable what relatives will do to each other over them. Too many are left the worse for the wear.
My mother's will has me, my two sisters and stepsister as heirs. I am the executor. I am also joint on her checking account and her safe deposit box that has cash in it. She wants me to use the joint account to pay her debts and then get reinbursed from the estate for the cost of those debts and put back into checking account. Then take the money from the joint checking account and safe deposit box and divide just with me and my two sisters. The joint account and joint safe deposit box go directly to me on her death. The amounts would not be subject to inheritence tax or gift tax. I would like to honor her wishes, but not sure if there is any legal ramifications when it comes to my stepsister on these accounts.
If you have a joint account then it is entirely yours when the other person dies. You can do with it as you please -- it is yours. You can honor your mother's wishes.
It is a shame that half- and step children often get short-shrift. Then it can get even comical to hear the "whole" children carry on about how they cannot understand why those half/steps choose to distance themselves. I have heard "You must have grown up in a different house" ....to which I replied "I certainly did!!!" Wills, Living wills, etc. documents, usually stipulate who gets what. But 1st off, the bills accrued by the elder need to get aid, if there is money to do it. Anything left after debts are paid, gets divided among those named, or if no will, between family members, perhaps decided by a judge. If there is any question about how things need to be handled, it is wise to get legal counsel, documentation, etc. to remove later doubts.
In my situation, I'm my mother's only child, but my step-father has three children. Her will leaves everything she owns, inherited and was given to me. My step-father's will leaves everything to my mother, but if she dies before him, then his stuff is dived up between his children. His children are very concerned that they might not inherit anything if their dad dies first. I am sure things will get messy not matter who dies first.
Pretty sure that will get messy! Most believe that if estate is left to spouse, the spouse or Estate Manager, will have high enough ethics to be fair and not greedy. Not always the case. IF there are family "heirlooms" Dad brought to the new marriage, those should get returned to his kids. IF it's money or other liquid assets, that he had before entering the subsequent marriage, those ethically should go to his previous family--but not necessarily written in stone. His surviving spouse, if given everything upon his death, it's hers, effectively --even if it was really about Dad forfeiting responsibility, not wanting to make those deicisions, bagging out on that and leaving it to his wife to figure out. Does he hate the kids from the previous marriage so bad, he would intentionally arrange things to omit them? Seeing if he can get vicarious post-mortem glee at dumping that doneybrook in family's lap? That kind of conflict, sets the kids all up for a greed/spite driven vendeta at worst. How much is in the estate, determines only how long the fight can go on. Sure hope it gets settled while the folks still have a chance to form a more clear and ethically worded will.
Debralee, Seems there are lots of those ! I have a relative like that too. She's got a personality disorder that makes relating tough. Has some somewhat different ideas of how things should be. ...And always courts relatives who might be able to give money, leave bequest or sign over their used car....seriously. She's approached multiple relatives to ask for her inheritance now, instead of later.
BUT...she is a special case. Needs help. Has been disabled enough long enough, lots have helped her out over time. AND, if there is a specific sum a relative plans to leave an heir, WHY NOT allow them use of it now, instead of later when you cannot see what a relief that help is while you are still breathing?..it literally can make life or death .sometimes
...OTH, if that person cannot care for their finances carefully for their circumstances, then a will that prevents that person accessing those funds until as late as possible.
It CAN BE a problem, because people can view it only from one side, not understanding other perspectives and situations, unless they open up a larger picture. While a Relative doing these kinds of behaviors, may not be an easy person to deal with, maybe it is also important to keep in mind, what else might be involved, and weigh all the data, before choosing how to handle the beggar...
Oregon is the State we are in.... In 1999 my in laws made a will and put the three oldest children (not in state) as executors. Seven years later dad passed away and 2.5 years ago Moms health started failing. She placed her son and I (his wife) on her checking and savings account with full rights to account, the only moneys deposited were hers. Nobody cared as I was her full time care giver (6 days a week) 13 months ago she was diagnosed with late stage dementia and was placed in a assisted living home. My husband who also had DPOA had to sell her home and vehicles and used the money for her care. She passed away last week and all of a sudden we are getting threats that we have to split the money left in her account. We fully intend to uphold what we believe are Dad and Moms wishes in dividing the money equally but only after all the bills are paid, we asked the family for 60 days and offered a full accounting of what she has in there.. One sister is threatening to sue us (she is one of the executors) Is her threat baseless?
Let me add. There is no "estate" my husband (her son) had to sell the home and cars to pay for her care. The contents of the home and shop were taken by the children who wanted them. So the only thing left is the Checking and Savings account.
I'm sorry to hear that your mother passed away last week. I lost my mom in October of 2013 and was the executor of her estate. That one sister sounds mean and possibly greedy to be threatening to sue.
I gather that your husband is one of the three oldest children who are the executors for the POA ended with her death? Is he one of the 3 executors of the estate?
Were your husband and you placed on her checking and savings as co-owners with right of survivorship or just authorized to access the money?
If you two were not made co-owners with right of survivorship, then the bank must create an account called the estate of ___ in which all of the money from the savings and checking account would go into from which the final bills would be paid by one of the executors of the will. All those bills must be paid before anyone gets any money.
If you and your husband were made co-owners with right of survivorship on her checking and savings account, then it automatically goes to you two which is going to cause some hurt feelings about the other family members. If this is your situation, then things are going to be messy. Is this your situation?
I think it would be wise to see a lawyer for it may take more than 60 days to get the remaining bills paid and her final tax return completed as well as paid if a final tax return is needed to be done. No money can be disbursed until all remaining bills are paid by the funds in the estate. That is the law.
I assume there is a will and someone has it in their possession. Does the will say anything about the disbursement of the money left in the estate?
Before making me her POA, my mother made me co-owner with right of survivorship of all of her personal accounts which included savings, checking, money market and CDs. Thus, when she died all of that money came immediately to me and I paid her final bills and tax return from those monies. My step-dad was aware of this and never complained, well he never complained to me about it anyway. A vast majority of her personal accounts came from money that she had inherited from her mother back in 1996 plus the sale of some of the land that she inherited which sold for some very good prices at the time.
My main questions are
1. Is your husband one of the 3 executors?
2. Were you and your husband joint owners with right of survivorship of those accounts?
Thanks for the clarification! I can see why there is a brewing battle over the remaining money in the accounts.
This is a lot of turmoil to be taking place only one week after the funeral! My goodness people need to be given room and space to grieve and really need to be more patient with the process of closing all of this out. I'm sorry that you two are experiencing so much drama right on top of this loss.
Thanks for your answer. My husband is not listed as one of the executors on her will, he is the youngest of 5 children but it has been he and I who have always lived near and cared for his elderly parents. Yes, we are fully on her checking and savings with right of survivorship. There are no properties nor other assets to be distributed. We have made each of the children aware that we will uphold Dad and Mom's wishes and once the bills are paid 9there are only three) we will distribute the remaining money evenly amongst the five children. Nobody gets more or less. Yes there was a will but as there are no assets other than above said checking account we were concerned she could "take" control and not only leave bills unpaid or in our name (we were her caregivers and bills came to us) but take all of the money. The other two executors would not agree with her and believe as my husband does that we need to pay bills. There are no tax issues.
This is a mess and the executors may well not like this at all, but since you and you husband were made full owners of those accounts with right of survivorship, it is all yours.
The bank is not required to create an account called the estate of ___ because now there is not estate with the money now being yours from the joint ownership. Thus, there is nothing for the executors of the will left to execute and your husband and you can legally pay her remaining bills from those accounts that now are yours. You can even still use the checks if they have her name and his name or your name in addition on them. If not the bank will need a copy of the death certificate to order you new checks. They need a copy of the death certificate anyway to process the taking of her name off of the accounts and leaving the accounts in ya'lls names.
Now for the messy part.
Legally, because of the joint ownership with right of survivorship, it is now yours. It all depends on how you want to handle this and how you want your relationships with the rest of the family to go.
1. Just keep it as it is and there will be a lot of hurt feelings, threats of law suits which have no basis in fact but could drag out and be expensive.
2. Be very gracious and divide the remaining money equally among the siblings. That would likely keep relationships healthier and on an even kneel. It may be painful or difficult to do since you two have done the caregiving because you lived near, but it is up to you to choose if you want to take the gracious high road or want to take purely the legal road. I can see where this would possibly be a very difficult choice to make.
These are the only two choices that I see that you have. It sounds like you are leaning toward the more gracious choice in resolving this. In the long run, that should work better for everyone.
I wish you the best with whichever choice you chose.
If the account is supposed to be shared upon your mother's death, it might be best to set that up in advance, especially if the persons to do the sharing may be upset about the arrangement.
http://www.ehow.com/info_12017340_can-poa-joint-account.html
If I understand you correctly, if mom specifies that $100 is to be divided equally amongst her four children in her will, but eldest child is joint owner of $50 which is held in the checking account, upon mom's death, that goes entirely to eldest child as joint owner? Is that correct?
Lorain also mentioned CD's...do you happen to know if the same rules apply to CD's as to the bank account? So if the remaining $50 was in CD's, and only eldest child was on the CD as joint owner, hypothetically, eldest child would own everything (liquid assets) upon mom's death, regardless of what the will says.
Am I correctly stating what you have said? (Money muddles my otherwise fine brain!)
Helpful as always, Jeanne, Thank you.
For instance, my mother has between 40 and 80 thousand in one checking account. She put my brother on it as a joint holder. As far as I know he has rights of survivorship. It is his money. She assures me he will "share" with me. I am not so sure but nothing I can do about it. He is on this account after all to pay her bills when needed. To quote her, "that is the way I want it."
Now if he keeps the money, it will ruin what is left of a shabby relationship anyway. I would never do that to him. But time will tell. So if you want to take the money after your Mom's death, you probably can but think about the damage this may do to your relationships. It is not worth it.
Since the account is a joint account (and not held in the name of a trust) the POD (Pay On Death) designation - beneficiary - should have been done when account was opened. If not, can be done at any time as long as account holders are competent.
With no POD joint owner is assumed to own all monies at death of 1st joint account holder.
You can also have multiple beneficiaries - i.e. 1/2 to estate of Mom and 1/2 to remaining account holder - then the part going to estate would be governed by Mom's will. Otherwise, bank accounts POD designation (or lack of) will govern who gets monies in that account. And overrides any designation in her will.
Good time to review all bank, investment, life insurance, etc. to make any needed updates and be sure beneficiaries are what Mom intends.
--they also keep saying stuff flike "I treat all of you equally" when they clearly do not.
It is very unfortunate.
It can definitely destroy family realationships, in ways that cannot be mended.
You, being the joint holder, are in a position of "power" , which you may choose to use or not.
IF the accounts have you as joint holder, because that constitutes your portion of an estate to which other relatives get an equal portion, that is one thing.
But if the money is gradually all used up, and you get left with nothing but bills, while the other inherit the rest of the estate, you end up shafted.
Bottom line is, estates of others were never ours to start with.
It is UNbelievable what relatives will do to each other over them.
Too many are left the worse for the wear.
Then it can get even comical to hear the "whole" children carry on about how they cannot understand why those half/steps choose to distance themselves.
I have heard "You must have grown up in a different house"
....to which I replied "I certainly did!!!"
Wills, Living wills, etc. documents, usually stipulate who gets what.
But 1st off, the bills accrued by the elder need to get aid, if there is money to do it.
Anything left after debts are paid, gets divided among those named, or if no will, between family members, perhaps decided by a judge.
If there is any question about how things need to be handled, it is wise to get legal counsel, documentation, etc. to remove later doubts.
Most believe that if estate is left to spouse, the spouse or Estate Manager, will have high enough ethics to be fair and not greedy.
Not always the case.
IF there are family "heirlooms" Dad brought to the new marriage, those should get returned to his kids.
IF it's money or other liquid assets, that he had before entering the subsequent marriage, those ethically should go to his previous family--but not necessarily written in stone.
His surviving spouse, if given everything upon his death, it's hers, effectively
--even if it was really about Dad forfeiting responsibility, not wanting to make those deicisions, bagging out on that and leaving it to his wife to figure out.
Does he hate the kids from the previous marriage so bad, he would intentionally arrange things to omit them?
Seeing if he can get vicarious post-mortem glee at dumping that doneybrook in family's lap?
That kind of conflict, sets the kids all up for a greed/spite driven vendeta at worst. How much is in the estate, determines only how long the fight can go on.
Sure hope it gets settled while the folks still have a chance to form a more clear and ethically worded will.
Seems there are lots of those !
I have a relative like that too.
She's got a personality disorder that makes relating tough.
Has some somewhat different ideas of how things should be.
...And always courts relatives who might be able to give money, leave bequest or sign over their used car....seriously. She's approached multiple relatives to ask for her inheritance now, instead of later.
BUT...she is a special case. Needs help. Has been disabled enough long enough, lots have helped her out over time.
AND, if there is a specific sum a relative plans to leave an heir,
WHY NOT allow them use of it now, instead of later when you cannot see what a relief that help is while you are still breathing?..it literally can make life or death .sometimes
...OTH, if that person cannot care for their finances carefully for their circumstances, then a will that prevents that person accessing those funds until as late as possible.
It CAN BE a problem, because people can view it only from one side, not understanding other perspectives and situations, unless they open up a larger picture.
While a Relative doing these kinds of behaviors, may not be an easy person to deal with, maybe it is also important to keep in mind, what else might be involved, and weigh all the data, before choosing how to handle the beggar...
I gather that your husband is one of the three oldest children who are the executors for the POA ended with her death? Is he one of the 3 executors of the estate?
Were your husband and you placed on her checking and savings as co-owners with right of survivorship or just authorized to access the money?
If you two were not made co-owners with right of survivorship, then the bank must create an account called the estate of ___ in which all of the money from the savings and checking account would go into from which the final bills would be paid by one of the executors of the will. All those bills must be paid before anyone gets any money.
If you and your husband were made co-owners with right of survivorship on her checking and savings account, then it automatically goes to you two which is going to cause some hurt feelings about the other family members. If this is your situation, then things are going to be messy. Is this your situation?
I think it would be wise to see a lawyer for it may take more than 60 days to get the remaining bills paid and her final tax return completed as well as paid if a final tax return is needed to be done. No money can be disbursed until all remaining bills are paid by the funds in the estate. That is the law.
I assume there is a will and someone has it in their possession. Does the will say anything about the disbursement of the money left in the estate?
Before making me her POA, my mother made me co-owner with right of survivorship of all of her personal accounts which included savings, checking, money market and CDs. Thus, when she died all of that money came immediately to me and I paid her final bills and tax return from those monies. My step-dad was aware of this and never complained, well he never complained to me about it anyway. A vast majority of her personal accounts came from money that she had inherited from her mother back in 1996 plus the sale of some of the land that she inherited which sold for some very good prices at the time.
My main questions are
1. Is your husband one of the 3 executors?
2. Were you and your husband joint owners with right of survivorship of those accounts?
This is a lot of turmoil to be taking place only one week after the funeral! My goodness people need to be given room and space to grieve and really need to be more patient with the process of closing all of this out. I'm sorry that you two are experiencing so much drama right on top of this loss.
This is a mess and the executors may well not like this at all, but since you and you husband were made full owners of those accounts with right of survivorship, it is all yours.
The bank is not required to create an account called the estate of ___ because now there is not estate with the money now being yours from the joint ownership. Thus, there is nothing for the executors of the will left to execute and your husband and you can legally pay her remaining bills from those accounts that now are yours. You can even still use the checks if they have her name and his name or your name in addition on them. If not the bank will need a copy of the death certificate to order you new checks. They need a copy of the death certificate anyway to process the taking of her name off of the accounts and leaving the accounts in ya'lls names.
Now for the messy part.
Legally, because of the joint ownership with right of survivorship, it is now yours. It all depends on how you want to handle this and how you want your relationships with the rest of the family to go.
1. Just keep it as it is and there will be a lot of hurt feelings, threats of law suits which have no basis in fact but could drag out and be expensive.
2. Be very gracious and divide the remaining money equally among the siblings. That would likely keep relationships healthier and on an even kneel. It may be painful or difficult to do since you two have done the caregiving because you lived near, but it is up to you to choose if you want to take the gracious high road or want to take purely the legal road. I can see where this would possibly be a very difficult choice to make.
These are the only two choices that I see that you have. It sounds like you are leaning toward the more gracious choice in resolving this. In the long run, that should work better for everyone.
I wish you the best with whichever choice you chose.