My in-laws want 2 of their 6 children to have Dual POA. Is that possible? They want these two children to both have to sign all of the checks (takes 2 signatures) and both to make decisions on their behalf. Is their a form for such?
My older brother and I have joint POA for my mom in case something happens to me. We agreed that I would handle everything (financial and medical) since I live in the same town where mom's NH is located and he lives 6 hours away. We chose to set up an account for mom at a national bank that has branches near both of us which made it easier to sign documents, etc. My brother has no desire to be bothered with paying mom's bills, doing her taxes or checking in on her well being, but at least if I'm not around he would pay her bills and do her taxes at the very least. At first I shared all information with him, but he was often very critical of my decisions and would tell me I should or could have done things differently. He became very cooperative when I told him if he didn't want to help me with these things, be part of the conversations about her care, or visit her two or three times a week and advocate for her like I do, then I didn't want to hear his criticism. Ideas were welcome, but not criticism after the fact. I would happily move mom to a facility near him and he could take over. I still keep him informed but don't try to discuss everything with him. That works better for us.
"...at least if I'm not around he would pay her bills and do her taxes at the very least."
In conjunction with the rest of your comment, clearly they (your brother and both of mine) have NO clue. They THINK they know it all, but they don't know squat and I worry what will happen if I become unable to manage everything.
My YB is also POA (assumption is either/or as no "and" was included.) I was the one who took the reins and moved forward, coordinating and managing everything. Initially when discussing how we would deal with her care, and later in fixing/clearing/selling her condo, both brothers were asked for input/included in decision making. Critical much? Oi. Not out of knowledge, but just off the cuff, no research, no considering anything. It reached a point where I just can't be bothered to ask for input or thoughts anymore. YB often doesn't respond, and I don't talk to OB anymore. If they had concerns, there's been plenty of time to ask.
Mom is now into year 4 at MC. Haven't had contact with OB in about 2 years (would be longer, but had to respond to query about K1 form he didn't get, FROM THE TAX PERSON! Okay genius, call HIM not me!) He isn't local and was physically and verbally abusive to me during his last "visit", so he isn't welcome in my life anymore (he also has no POA.) YB thinks EVERYTHING is handled by the facility. Sure Einstein. They care for her, provide meals, laundry, cleaning, dispense meds, etc, but they DON'T manage her meds (Rx and OTCs), they DON'T provide wipes or briefs (unless they are out and charge extra for them!), they DON'T keep track of or make appts, they DON'T collect/save tax receipts or get her taxes done, the DON'T accept direct payment from SS (which requires me to report how her funds are used), they DON'T manage the trust or her finances, which requires anticipating increases, other needs, etc. There is still a LOT that needs to be managed - CLUELESS he is!!!
My sister and I are both my dad's POA. We are both signers on his accounts but only one needs to sign..we just both have check signing privileges. The only thing that required both our signatures was changing his CD to renew. She lives 3 hours away from me. This way if one of us dies or is traveling things run seamlessly. I take care of dad's finances and taxes and since she lives far away handles other issues. We are also both his Medical POA. It works great for us!
It is possible. Your in laws would be wise to consult an attorney, though. I do not think it is advisable. It can lead to stalemates and make things harder to do. I think the only option to a stalemate between the POAs is court. Who signs checks anymore anyway? They might be better off giving them both authorized access to their online accounts. If they do not trust them individually to act in the best interests of the parents, they should find another POA option.
This, I had to jump through hoops to get the bank to accept the POA. They wanted THEIR form, etc. Annoying when you have an elderly loved one who cannot come in to their office
I am an estate trustee that required 3 signatures on every cheque. All 3 of us lived in different cities. What a pain. Our lawyer was able to change it to any 2 of the three signatures...
It is possible, yes, they can make all six joint POA if they want to (don't do that!).
They do want to think it through, though.
The idea of requiring two signatures on any check or any document is often along the lines of "then the responsibility is shared fairly, and each can keep an eye on the other."
There are drawbacks.
E.g. - it takes more than twice as long to get a check signed. In an emergency, or just in a hurry, this can be a nuisance - say one POA has gone on a week's vacation, the other can't pay a bill or sign a contract without him.
If the POAs live far apart from each other and paper has to pass physically from one to the other, it can cause even more delay.
Or, what if one thinks that a piece of equipment is a great idea, and the other thinks it's a waste of money? - petty details can grow into hot conflicts, especially when people are under stress.
And to be honest, if you can't trust a person 100% with your POA then you probably shouldn't pick him/her to have POA for you anyway.
They might do better to make the POAs "joint and several" - so that they'd be able to act individually as well as together - and at the same time stipulate that information must be shared with x, y and z; so that the POAs are required to share a monthly account of income and outgoings with whoever the parents would like to know about it, just for example.
How do the unchosen four feel about this, by the way? The choice of POA is ENTIRELY the parents' and nobody has any right to challenge it; but having said that, it's as well to beware possible hurt feelings.
My two friends, Jim and Beth, went through the POA forms with Beth's only cousin. No children involved or other relatives. They made me the #1 Power of Attorney, another friend the #2 POA, and the cousin the #3 POA. This was all notarized at their bank using their attorney. I went there the next day to sign and they were relieved someone was stepping in to help them.
I have done all the work and made all the decisions, but kept the other two POA's informed of my actions and decisions. When I leave town for a trip or something, they other two know where I am going, how long I will be gone and how to reach me. I keep a small pile of important documents and Jim's checkbook in the middle of a table so the #2 POA could find it easily in case that is necessary. Only one signature on a check is needed and I also add in parenthesis "POA" after my name. This had worked well since begun in 2013. Jim and Beth moved into a memory care apartment in 2015 and Beth passed on about 5 months later. Jim is still there and I am still managing his affairs behind the scenes. I can't see him each week like usual with the COVID-19 crisis, but he is in good hands there. We have been friends about 47 years. Jim is a well-educated black man whose grandfather was a slave as a boy. I am a very fair-skinned Swede. He always greets me as his "brother of another color." And that is how it is supposed to be able to work.
niece, yes it is possible to have two people assigned on a Power of Attorney, and for both to sign their checks on a person's behalf.
It would be better to have such a Power of Attorney drawn up by an "Elder Law Attorney" then to do this yourself. With doing this yourself, it is too easy to leave out a word or place a wrong word both of which could create a landmine when it came to using the Power of Attorney.
As for two people signing one check, the bank can give you information and forms to fill out for the bank side of doing this. New checks would need to be created that say that the check is invalid without the two signatures. And both POA's would also be listed in the upper left side of the check along with the parent(s) name(s).
I would say it’s up to the bank as to how many sign a check. Just like any joint account, only one person of the ones listed sign the check. I’m not sure why any bank would require both parties. On our joint account either me, my dad, or my sister can sign. just like my husband and my joint checking. We use checks for paying dad's annual Medigap policy premium and the CPA. Etc. not everything is paid my auto draft or credit card.
Yes, but unless the two POAs live very close to each other, it will be a real pain on check signing unless it is down as OR on checking/savings accounts, etc. check with attorney and bank before diving in on this potential nightmare! My Mom had me down as POA and sister as backup POA. If something happened to me, my sister could take over. Also, both of our names were put on all bank accounts. We went to the bank together to get this set up.
In conjunction with the rest of your comment, clearly they (your brother and both of mine) have NO clue. They THINK they know it all, but they don't know squat and I worry what will happen if I become unable to manage everything.
My YB is also POA (assumption is either/or as no "and" was included.) I was the one who took the reins and moved forward, coordinating and managing everything. Initially when discussing how we would deal with her care, and later in fixing/clearing/selling her condo, both brothers were asked for input/included in decision making. Critical much? Oi. Not out of knowledge, but just off the cuff, no research, no considering anything. It reached a point where I just can't be bothered to ask for input or thoughts anymore. YB often doesn't respond, and I don't talk to OB anymore. If they had concerns, there's been plenty of time to ask.
Mom is now into year 4 at MC. Haven't had contact with OB in about 2 years (would be longer, but had to respond to query about K1 form he didn't get, FROM THE TAX PERSON! Okay genius, call HIM not me!) He isn't local and was physically and verbally abusive to me during his last "visit", so he isn't welcome in my life anymore (he also has no POA.) YB thinks EVERYTHING is handled by the facility. Sure Einstein. They care for her, provide meals, laundry, cleaning, dispense meds, etc, but they DON'T manage her meds (Rx and OTCs), they DON'T provide wipes or briefs (unless they are out and charge extra for them!), they DON'T keep track of or make appts, they DON'T collect/save tax receipts or get her taxes done, the DON'T accept direct payment from SS (which requires me to report how her funds are used), they DON'T manage the trust or her finances, which requires anticipating increases, other needs, etc. There is still a LOT that needs to be managed - CLUELESS he is!!!
Who signs checks anymore anyway? They might be better off giving them both authorized access to their online accounts. If they do not trust them individually to act in the best interests of the parents, they should find another POA option.
Having two independent POAs has been an ongoing problem in our case.
By all means, have a lawyer who has specific experience with this type of situation work with you.
They do want to think it through, though.
The idea of requiring two signatures on any check or any document is often along the lines of "then the responsibility is shared fairly, and each can keep an eye on the other."
There are drawbacks.
E.g. - it takes more than twice as long to get a check signed. In an emergency, or just in a hurry, this can be a nuisance - say one POA has gone on a week's vacation, the other can't pay a bill or sign a contract without him.
If the POAs live far apart from each other and paper has to pass physically from one to the other, it can cause even more delay.
Or, what if one thinks that a piece of equipment is a great idea, and the other thinks it's a waste of money? - petty details can grow into hot conflicts, especially when people are under stress.
And to be honest, if you can't trust a person 100% with your POA then you probably shouldn't pick him/her to have POA for you anyway.
They might do better to make the POAs "joint and several" - so that they'd be able to act individually as well as together - and at the same time stipulate that information must be shared with x, y and z; so that the POAs are required to share a monthly account of income and outgoings with whoever the parents would like to know about it, just for example.
How do the unchosen four feel about this, by the way? The choice of POA is ENTIRELY the parents' and nobody has any right to challenge it; but having said that, it's as well to beware possible hurt feelings.
I have done all the work and made all the decisions, but kept the other two POA's informed of my actions and decisions. When I leave town for a trip or something, they other two know where I am going, how long I will be gone and how to reach me. I keep a small pile of important documents and Jim's checkbook in the middle of a table so the #2 POA could find it easily in case that is necessary. Only one signature on a check is needed and I also add in parenthesis "POA" after my name. This had worked well since begun in 2013. Jim and Beth moved into a memory care apartment in 2015 and Beth passed on about 5 months later. Jim is still there and I am still managing his affairs behind the scenes. I can't see him each week like usual with the COVID-19 crisis, but he is in good hands there. We have been friends about 47 years. Jim is a well-educated black man whose grandfather was a slave as a boy. I am a very fair-skinned Swede. He always greets me as his "brother of another color." And that is how it is supposed to be able to work.
It would be better to have such a Power of Attorney drawn up by an "Elder Law Attorney" then to do this yourself. With doing this yourself, it is too easy to leave out a word or place a wrong word both of which could create a landmine when it came to using the Power of Attorney.
As for two people signing one check, the bank can give you information and forms to fill out for the bank side of doing this. New checks would need to be created that say that the check is invalid without the two signatures. And both POA's would also be listed in the upper left side of the check along with the parent(s) name(s).
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