Independent living rent going up again! FIL needs convincing about downsizing from 2-bedroom into a 1-bedroom. Any advice?

If your loved ones are living in *independent* living I'd be interested to know how big is the unit, how much is the rent, is it all inclusive, and any additional charges you've noticed. Thanks.

NY - El situation de su esposo con Los hermanos y su suegro es una pendejara total. Un chingo de manure. Papi, well my guess is that he has always been very in control and opinionated of what his children’s lives are supposed to be. The older siblings were able to break away; but hubs, being the youngest was your MILs little prince and your hubs is still in fear of his dad. Am I kinda on track here? Your hubs, he’s not procrastinating, he’s paralyzed to do what he knows has to be done.... which is move Papi to a higher level of care - whether NH or MC.

His siblings, so are they at all clear about how dad is hemorrhaging $?
If not expect blowback, and lots of “lo jodiste” that hubs should have doled out the $ better.... even though hubs wisely had his $ last to this point. Dealing with his siblings could also cause fear.

I know Papi, he’s my maternal grandfather. Old school Hispanic. Control & fear is how he ran his business and his family. My mom was the youngest and when she finally got married to my dad (Papi did not allow her to marry her first two suitors), it wasn’t congratulations but who is going to stay to take care of us. Among my parents friends - even when there was $ and had maids - there was supposed to be 1 who stayed at the family homestead to be the caretaker. Your hubs being male was expected to get marrried but still expected to be the caretaker. The behavior is hard to break. To this very last Christmas, I still have cousins in their flipping late 70’s who are all “donde carajos” about stuff that was in our grandparents house. The whole we’re Hispanic & we don’t put our family in NH is a big steaming load. Both my grandmothers went into NH; my mom as well. Times change..... like outside of seeing the pope does anyone even think of wearing a mantilla?

Out of curiosity, do they converse Spanish only when you are there? If so, and your not fluent, tell hubs that has to be 86’d or he has to code switch all conversations. Also the caregivers, are they real hands on caregivers or more like companions or sitters?

I asked because there are places, especially in Asia, where it is basically written into the cultural code that children care for their elders. Not to do so brings shame upon the family name.

I don't know if that's the case among Spaniards. But here's the thing. You all live in the U.S. The economy, the housing and health care system is set up in such a way as to penalize folks who pay for their parents' care. It's like they say, your kids can take out loans for college. Fund your retirement first
No loans for retirement! You need to make sure that YOUR old age is funded adequately.

If FIL has funds, they need to be spent wisely on his care. If he runs out, there will be government assistance that will be available if hes indigent and medically in need of a NH.

DH might do well to consult with an eldercare attorney who understands Medicaid.

You and he might benefit from some sessions of couples therapy to work out why this is so difficult for him. And to make a plan, going forward that you both can live with.

Hi Barb,

Any thoughts on what the cultural background has to do with what's going on with my FIL and husband? And what can I do about it?

Sometimes, just like with children, you have to lead them into the idea by not giving too many choices. Maybe you could say "the management here has suggested that they feel with some of your limited movement, a place near the elevators where you didn't have to walk as far would be ideal for you. They want you to be able to live here as long as possible. Since it's just you here now, they feel that a 1 bedroom apartment would suit your needs very well, and would free up a 2 bedroom for an incoming couple who may need more space. They showed us what was available, and we feel that it is a really good time/choice for you right now. It would make a lot less work for you in keeping up the place, and would be a lot closer for you to get to meals, etc. We think this is a really good idea and we should jump on it while it's available."  Talk to the management in advance, and go look at what's available. You and your husband decide on the 2 different units to give him the option of, and then take him to see which one he would prefer. I'm 99% sure the staff will go along with you, and won't mind pretending it is their idea. They are really good at that, in supporting the families. 
With my inlaws we had to make a simple spreadsheet that showed his income, out going expenses and his reserves. We told them that since they were still in good physical health we had to plan that they could live another 10 years! We showed them that if they kept expenses at the rate they were spending, they'd be out of money in less than 3 years. We had it printed on cardstock and hard laminated so they could refer to it. My inlaws were similar in that they had no budget and the dementia had dimmed their ability to see the bigger picture on how fast they were running through their money. For example, they lived in independent living but it included 2 meals a day, yet they were going out to eat daily???? They couldn't understand that that was not a wise use of their money. SO we had to show them the bigger picture. 

I will also encourage you to consider an assisted living situation. You can probably get a nice assisted living apartment that comes with what you are paying the extra in caregiving for. I know that I live in Texas and you live in NY, but my inlaws are in nice assisted living cottages--8 rooms per "house", with a community dining room, living room, all their cleaning and laundry done and 3 meals a day, and medication management. 24 hr assistance, for $4,700 per month--FOR 2 OF THEM--One is even in Memory Care!

NY, the situation you describe is nuts, but it's not of your making, is it?

(There was someone in my mom's IL who had full time aides. Everyone complained about the situation all the time; the woman was combative and sometimes loud. I believe they eventually evicted her.)

It's also not yours to solve, and certainly not with YOUR retirement funds.

Would your husband like you to take this decision making off his plate? Will he cooperate if you come up with a plan to move his dad to an AL where he wouldn't need aides?

How would talking to the facilty make things worse, do you think. I think that you need to know what management is thinking. Perhaps they've been communicating with DH and hes not sharing?

This sounds like a marriage issue to me, since it's clear that it's having an impact on yours. Will DH see a therapist with you?

Can you tell us the cultural background that is causing DH such angst and guilt?

NY - so IL each month its almost 10k in rent plus 2 shifts of Caregivers?

omg, I totally understand Why. Your. Freaking. Out.

so 150k - 180k a yr for FIL to fall risk meander about in IL?

OK there major denial happening here for both hubs and FIL. What is it? Not accepting mom’s death? Fear? Guilt? You know the dynamics best.

If the situation is an impasse, I’d try to bypass both of them and try to get management involved to get him moved.

Believe me they do not want the liability of a fall risk being a problem for the other residents of the IL section. I’m kinda surprised other IL residents aren’t complaining about those caregivers of his always being about. He’s not IL if he has to have aides pretty much continuously. Could it be that they have cut him some slack as everybody loved your late MIL, so hasn’t presssed his needing to move to higher level of care?

My mom was in IL. A tiered facility, the kind that runs from IL to AL to NH & hospice wing. IL would do fire drills and if residents could not totally on their own exit via fire stairwells, they would either be required to have a needs assessment done (they liked your parent & wanted them in AL or NH sector) or 30 day notice to move (they didn’t). Could there be anyway to have management do a fire drill?? So he’s deemed unsuitable for IL and he has no option but to move into higher level of care? Like AL or MC? So it’s no longer hubs or FILs choice.

I assume since theres a CPA, that those caregivers are being paid properly with FICA, reporting, etc? Right?

I'm going through this right now with my mom. Her facility wanted to increase her bill by almost $2000 a month! The trustee and I requested a face to face meeting to go over the charges with an itemized bill. The management tried to say that my mother had to be watched as far as what she ate, due to her "allergies." I explained to them (as I did several times before) that any time her stomach is upset, she suspects she is allergic to something she just ate. She is lactose intolerant and has been since she was a child. She became allergic to shellfish in her 40s. She is well aware of both, having dealt with them for years and won't eat them accidentally. They were charging $450 a month to make sure she didn't eat dairy or shellfish. I was also informed that someone was coming in to "help her dress" everyday now to the tune of $1500 a month. First of all, my mother is a little old fashionista - she went to college for fashion retailing and needs no help in coordinating her outfits or putting them on. Secondly, I know she sleeps in her clothes and has done so for the last 15 years - no one helps her change and she refuses to wear pajamas. Thirdly, I've been to that facility early on weekends and there are NO aides around to do anything for the residents - they are all holed up in the breakroom. Finally, I bring her home for weekend visits a couple of times a year and at no time has she needed help getting dressed. The facility manager knew she'd been caught and removed the extra $1950 from the monthly bill.

Yes, your FIL needs to move to a smaller living space - he doesn't need that much room and you don't know how long he will be there - could be 2 months, could be 10 years and you have to plan his finances accordingly. But ask for an itemized bill to see whether there are things he is being charged for that he shouldn't be and if so, question it.

This morning I discussed with my husband Countymouse's suggestion about getting the manager to give FIL a good deal on a 1-bedroom. At first, he did not understand the new approach. I phrased it as "Rather than approaching your dad with 'do you want to move to a 1-bedroom' get your dad a good deal on a 1-bedroom from the manager so that the focus isn't on moving but rather on considering the deal that's being offered."

I reminded my husband that when his mom was still alive, the building charged an extra $1500 per month for her meals, and that now that she's gone, the building is losing that money and has a vested interest in getting another couple into his dad's 2-bedroom.

Hubby had a hard time with all of this. And I am concerned that hubby's reaction to this new approach is skepticism: "Why would the building offer my dad a deal on a 1-bedroom out of the blue?" I replied that the building knows that his dad has been falling a lot lately, and fell a couple times in the dining room. So an offer on a 1-bedroom closer to the elevator wouldn't exactly be "out of the blue".

I am even more concerned that hubby concluded our discussion with "Let's see if dad's attitude about moving has changed". Yeah - and I'll start holding my breath.

NY,

Yep, your dad really doesn’t need a two bedroom. We don’t need extra space as we get older. It’s a waste.

Maybe his CPA is in denial or thinking about her own future. Doesn't sound like she would be a good ally for you guys.

When your FIL says I don't want to, sounds like a knee jerk answer. And since it has worked so well with his son, well you know.

Is it possible to say, we don't want to either, but it is about needing too. Then give him the reality of what happens when he runs out of money. I would bet Medicaid isn't going to keep him where he is at. Just getting your husband out of the waffle iron would be so beneficial. Maybe, if your husband realizes that his dad will be a financial burden that takes your financial security or ends up on Medicaid without a penny to his name will help him put his foot down and implement the move out of necessity and not force.

If that doesn't work, get someone to take him for the day and bring him home to his new digs. Change is scary, but once he sees it's not as much change as he thought, he will adjust.

My prayers are with you, I know how frustrating it is when you are stuck in the middle and are the only one that can see it for what it really is.

I can’t blame him for being in an apartment. I’d love to sell this house and go to a small condo or apartment. As we age a large house becomes a headache! I want to downsize at some point.

If all else fails you could always go the hardball option and force the change in the same way some people on the forum have forced a move to AL - after thoroughly explaining why it "has" to happen just let him be, then take him out for the day, hire somebody to make the switch and present him with a fait accompli.

So, I would ask the CPA to run the numbers for survival for 5, 10 and 15 years, given the longevity genes in the family. Most CPAs don't understand how long folks live unless they've been in this situation themselves.

The CPA is a powerful ally because if he's got a relationship with your FIL, HE can talk the numbers to FIL in a way that you and dh can't.

Does your FIL still walk? If so, maybe you could play up the fact “a beautiful apartment has just become available and it’s close enough to the elevator and would be so much safer and easier for you to get around”. Maybe it has a better view too? Anything else positive? “You’ll be able to keep both your caregivers with the savings.”

NYDIL, reflecting back on my experience with my mom in her Independent Living facility and then in her NH ( private pay, all the way for 4 1/2 years) I want to mention two things...

I knew my mom had assets. My brother was POA; his wife, my wonderful SIL has an MBA and has a much better handle on money than the rest of us. So she was always gonna be in charge of what mom could afford.

So 5k per month for IL for two years, then 10k per month in the nh, plus maintenance on her house, which we didnt sell until year 3 in the NH....I kept thinking, she's running out of money, right? We must be getting close to Medicaid, yes? Dad was an engineer and mom didnt go back to work until she was 60. Worked as a secretary for an insurance broker, so not all that much from her side of the equation. My parents were frugal, but she MUST be running out money, yes????

What I didn't realize was that my mom had a wonderful INCOME stream from my dad's pension and SS which apparently paid for IL in its entirety and fully half the NH fees.

You might want to sit down with the cpa, dh and the numbers. I suspect if CPA says fil can afford it, he's correct.

You know, just out of curiosity you could find out prices of comparable independent living units nearby and if they are lower mention it to the manager.

See if they will match a lower price. How long has FIL been a tenant there?

It’s ridiculous how often rent is raised.

Less is more for seniors. It really is.

Get the facility on board and have them tell him they need the two bedroom for another couple, but have a lovely room closer to the elevator for him.

My client had lived in the same house for over 50 years. The house was paid. They had No desire to move. Especially the Mr. ( this was my boyfriend’s parents I was living with and caring for). But the costs of running the home and the caregivers were also the depleting his resources. We had to go into A reverse mortgage to just have enough money to survive even though they pulled good retirements.

So yes, talk about the numbers, show him the numbers in black-and-white. project it out for him. if it’s only mild dementia he can still grasp it.

You also have to talk up the positives of the new place and follow through. That is if you promise more visits then visit more etc.

If it’s really expensive for where he lives and it’s far away from you, this is one thing I would recommend: go ahead and make the major change now instead of doing this incrementally on him ( moving again if his memory gets worse- which it will. ) it will be worse for him the more you move him.

Familiarity is very important to the client with dementia because as his memory goes, those things that he recognizes are what gives him some sanity and peace of mind as he sees himself declining. So do please avoid that as much as possible.

My heart breaks for you. Watching this progress is hard on everyone. But the least amount of changes possible is the best choice.

Have you (DH and you, I mean) thought of approaching the community's management for help with this? Who knows what you might be able to negotiate for him among you, and if you with their support can put a tempting offer in his way it might make it much easier. All about getting a good new deal, rather than leaving his old apartment.

How is a smaller apartment going to work with the two shifts of caregivers? Will there still be enough living space during the day?

Have you talked to his doctor about bringing up the idea?

Often we resorted to telling mom, " now it's time to" rather than " do you want to", which always produced a " no" response.

If he asks why, you tell him the doc said "now it's time to move closer to the elevator".

I might suggest that DH consult with a specialist about the best way to proceed. It seems that he has already considered a lot and with planning for the long term, I'd make sure that I had a professional's input. His father may not care, but, it would show that there are valid reasons for his decisions.

With your FIL having dementia....it's very difficult to convince, persuade or get them on board something they are against. He may not be able to process the information, so that it makes sense. If he is deemed incompetent by his doctor, then, his DPOA would make the decisions, regardless. I know you want him to be content, but, sometimes, that isn't possible. I'd explore compromise, though, that is probably not something that he would be open to, based on what you have said. I hope othesr will have some suggestions for you.