It was a bill outlining her services. FPOA, HPOA, HIPPA Authorization, Will, RLT, Memo Certification of Trust, Documents and Funding Instructions. It is her law firm.
A bill after our hour long zoom consult for which I paid $400. I had my lawyer in NM forward all his estate planning paperwork to her office. She sent me loads of papers to fill in which the bill attached.
Didn’t you discuss fees with the lawyer before you agreed to use their services? People here are from all over & legal fees vary from state to state. You might be better off calling around local attorneys (estate attorneys or whatever type of attorney you are dealing with) but the fees should have discussed up front.
Yup you're right, it should have been discussed. I have only had a consult which I paid $400 for and now need to decide if I want to continue with the Elder Care attorney. I don't know if $4,000 is the going rate for estate planning; I moved from NM to NC and need to update all my previous estate paperwork.
Were you not given costs up front? Did you ask for costs up front? Most attorneys will tell you what they charge for all of the above and what they charge per hour for advice (includes phone advice.) I would say in California, for all the above, given they get your property properly drawn into the trust, etc. you are looking at at least 4,000-5,000 for everything if even minimally complicated. Inerestingly enough, about half that price in some So CA areas.
Nope I didn't ask up front for costs. In my defense, I lost my husband last year, sold my house a year later and temporarily moved into my daughter's house. I moved from NM to NC and was anxious to settle my affairs here in NC. The NM lawyer had already prepared the necessary papers for all that I mentioned 4 years prior and was forwarded to the lawyer here in NC. I had an initial consult with her for which I paid $400 which consisted of a zoom meeting, after which I was presented with a bill for $4,000 to move forward for the estate planning. That's where I am now.
I started my life in Brooklyn, moved from there to L.I. to NM to NC. My husband died last year, sold my home and moved here to NC where my things are still in storage. I just need to know if $4,000 is a fair price for what I need which is estate planning.
Hey, MsGiggy! I live across the street from Juniors.
Okay, so she is presenting you with an invoice thay will be due, I presume, if you fill out the paperwork and she executes the estate plan.
I would call the lawyer and ask if this is a flat fee for this work. (Some eldercare lawyers charge by the hour for work performed; others charge a flat fee for this sort of work).
Have you called a couple of other lawyers to ask what their fees are? Do you have friends you can ask?
Hey Barb, just what I was looking for - some interesting reading for a nice quiet Saturday. I liked the last sentence of all this info, "trust your gut", and right now it's say I need a snack.
Seriously, thanks for the info and as in most important decisions, do your homework and rely on your intuition.
MsGiggy, it's really hard to tell, not only b/c of the location, but because of the possible complexity of issues. It also depends on the attorney's experience, position in the firm (newbie or partner), and it could depend on how organized the attorney is.
The best estate planning practice I worked for had literally everything computerized, and this was back in the mid 1990s. Trusts and Wills use a lot of standardized verbiage, so the attorney's instructions to the secretaries indicated which forms to use (i.e., single will, joint will, revocable trust, irrevocable trust, etc.) and provided the individualized data to fill in the appropriate forms.
It was the most organized arrangement I've seen for this type of law practice. That kind of practice can charge less, but single practitioners or those who aren't as sophisticated would probably charge more. That's been my experience.
Is this attorney a sole practitioner? Associate in a firm? Partner in a firm? How many attorneys are in the firm, and how many practice areas are there? Does the firm publish an Estate Planning newsletter? Hold seminars for its clients, including employees who might be potential estate planning clients?
The only way you can really make a good determination is by comparison shopping with other law firms, following BarbBrooklyn's guidelines for breaking out the work, identifying generally the assets (i.e., real property, mutuals, other financial instruments, heirs, special arrangements, etc.).
I would list all of the above, provide general information (again as to assets), research firms in your area, and start calling.
ETA: I would generally not expect NC fees to be even equivalent with those of attorneys in NC, or say Chicago, Detroit, or other big cities, which factor high overhead into their pricing scales. Some of these firms typically cater to "high net worth" clients but also have more middle class clients. Others just go for the high profile clients.
You might also contact the NC State Bar Assn. and search their attorney categories for estate planning firms in your area.
Something I remembered about the extra costs of trusts: transferring assets into the Trust. This would typically involve a Quit Claim Deed from the title holders to the Settlor (the individual who creates the trust), recording of the Deed, transferring other assets (including stocks, mutuals, etc.), possibly an Inventory of transferred assets, etc. It's a lot of paperwork, but it has to be done if everything is to be held in trust.
JoAnn, there CAN be state differences. I get a newsletter from the firm I used to work for, and sometimes the case or statutory law updates address situations applicable to our state, but perhaps not to others.
As to redoing all the documents, it would depend I think on which document is affected. A Will can be amended through a Codicil. Best recollection for Trusts, is an "Amended and Restated Trust" in which only the changed part is addressed and all other provisions are "held constant" (i.e., not changed at all).
POAs might be affected, and I believe that they would be redone, if for no other reason than to be on the safe side and have only one document being effective.
As to state jurisdiction, I believe it's the state in which the individual creating the documents lives, unless it's changed and I missed it.
As to HIPAA and release of information, it's been some years since I signed new ones, but best recollection is that I signed not just a HIPAA release, but also a release for medical billing purposes - 2 separate documents. I have copies as I always ask for them, so I'll check next time when I get a chance.
Any other questions? Not sure I can answer them, but I'll try.
Costs (package deals or by the hour) are going to vary from state to state and even within a state. The attorney who handled the POAs, will, trust, condo, etc for my parents is close to a major city. At that time (2006 I believe) he charged about 4k for the work done. Dad passed in 2008. Around 2015 we had to revisit him. The will and POAs were not redone, but he prepped the irrevocable trust and life estate trust for mom's condo. It was about 4k again.
Sadly the condo life estate bit into the sale, as she couldn't stay for "life" to allow it to transfer to us as trustees and giving us the "bump up" to save cap gains. She developed dementia, wouldn't allow the aides in after less than 2 months (only 1 hr/day, with plans to increase as needed), so we had to finagle a way to get her to move to MC. We had to use this atty for the closing when we sold it to cover her MC costs, and THAT was even more expensive. We could have held on to it until she passes, but the fees and taxes were killers! None of us wanted to live in it and I had enough to do without becoming a landlord to rent it out.
Anyway, assuming this atty knows what she's doing and has done a good job, it probably isn't overly charged. Elder Law attys are "specialists", so they need to know more about elder law than your run of the mill atty, who can draw up a will or even trusts, POAs, etc. As noted, you could call others in the area and ask for a ballpark price for the work you had done. If they are all in the same price range, then it's probably the going rate for your area.
The price of legal services is VERY location-dependent.
Will, RLT, Memo Certification of Trust, Documents and Funding Instructions. It is her law firm.
Okay, so she is presenting you with an invoice thay will be due, I presume, if you fill out the paperwork and she executes the estate plan.
I would call the lawyer and ask if this is a flat fee for this work. (Some eldercare lawyers charge by the hour for work performed; others charge a flat fee for this sort of work).
Have you called a couple of other lawyers to ask what their fees are? Do you have friends you can ask?
Did she come highly recommended?
I found this on NOLO:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-cost-of-estate-planning-how-much-will-you-pay.html
Here is another article from The Balance:
https://www.thebalance.com/how-do-i-know-if-my-attorney-s-fees-are-reasonable-3505713
Seriously, thanks for the info and as in most important decisions, do your homework and rely on your intuition.
The best estate planning practice I worked for had literally everything computerized, and this was back in the mid 1990s. Trusts and Wills use a lot of standardized verbiage, so the attorney's instructions to the secretaries indicated which forms to use (i.e., single will, joint will, revocable trust, irrevocable trust, etc.) and provided the individualized data to fill in the appropriate forms.
It was the most organized arrangement I've seen for this type of law practice. That kind of practice can charge less, but single practitioners or those who aren't as sophisticated would probably charge more. That's been my experience.
Is this attorney a sole practitioner? Associate in a firm? Partner in a firm? How many attorneys are in the firm, and how many practice areas are there? Does the firm publish an Estate Planning newsletter? Hold seminars for its clients, including employees who might be potential estate planning clients?
The only way you can really make a good determination is by comparison shopping with other law firms, following BarbBrooklyn's guidelines for breaking out the work, identifying generally the assets (i.e., real property, mutuals, other financial instruments, heirs, special arrangements, etc.).
I would list all of the above, provide general information (again as to assets), research firms in your area, and start calling.
ETA: I would generally not expect NC fees to be even equivalent with those of attorneys in NC, or say Chicago, Detroit, or other big cities, which factor high overhead into their pricing scales. Some of these firms typically cater to "high net worth" clients but also have more middle class clients. Others just go for the high profile clients.
You might also contact the NC State Bar Assn. and search their attorney categories for estate planning firms in your area.
As to redoing all the documents, it would depend I think on which document is affected. A Will can be amended through a Codicil. Best recollection for Trusts, is an "Amended and Restated Trust" in which only the changed part is addressed and all other provisions are "held constant" (i.e., not changed at all).
POAs might be affected, and I believe that they would be redone, if for no other reason than to be on the safe side and have only one document being effective.
As to state jurisdiction, I believe it's the state in which the individual creating the documents lives, unless it's changed and I missed it.
As to HIPAA and release of information, it's been some years since I signed new ones, but best recollection is that I signed not just a HIPAA release, but also a release for medical billing purposes - 2 separate documents. I have copies as I always ask for them, so I'll check next time when I get a chance.
Any other questions? Not sure I can answer them, but I'll try.
Sadly the condo life estate bit into the sale, as she couldn't stay for "life" to allow it to transfer to us as trustees and giving us the "bump up" to save cap gains. She developed dementia, wouldn't allow the aides in after less than 2 months (only 1 hr/day, with plans to increase as needed), so we had to finagle a way to get her to move to MC. We had to use this atty for the closing when we sold it to cover her MC costs, and THAT was even more expensive. We could have held on to it until she passes, but the fees and taxes were killers! None of us wanted to live in it and I had enough to do without becoming a landlord to rent it out.
Anyway, assuming this atty knows what she's doing and has done a good job, it probably isn't overly charged. Elder Law attys are "specialists", so they need to know more about elder law than your run of the mill atty, who can draw up a will or even trusts, POAs, etc. As noted, you could call others in the area and ask for a ballpark price for the work you had done. If they are all in the same price range, then it's probably the going rate for your area.
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