How do you discuss difficult stuff with a person who claims to not be able to handle hard subjects?

This kind of manipulative arrangement is often a topic here. If it's any consolation, you're not alone.

I think your MIL is playing her "victim" and "needy" personae for all it's worth. Unfortunately, you have to recognize that attempting to respond on a rational basis to irrational claims and arguments isn't going to address the core problem. Sometimes you just have to work around that core issue.

You and your husband might want to sit down, detail as much as you can the various arguments and complaints your present, and determine if there are concrete ways of addressing them or if they're not the kind of issues that can't be addressed, treated and/or resolved. In other words, sometimes her complaints probably just need to be ignored, unless, obviously, they're medical ones of verifiable concern.

But from your post it seems as though she manages to segue into this explanation as justification for her behavior. It can be hard to sort out which medical issues are real and which are cries for attention.

Sometimes you can provide a witty retort that will stop her, likely by surprise and shock.

One issue to address is that of co-opting your husband to do chores. Suggest she make a list, your husband will look it over when he has time and decide which he can fix or which need to be contracted out. Your husband takes a stand, it will challenge her and she will be mad. But your husband has stated he won't be manipulated into changing his schedule, doing work which could be hired out, or backed through trickery into allowing her to manipulate him.

You may have to think of responses like this for all her actions, as well as stating firmly that you either can't or won't get involved, such as stepping in between the abusive relationship she has with her husband.

Since she turned on your husband, next time tell her that your husband tried to intervene, she countermanded him and denied her statements, and that there is nothing he can do in this situation. Then terminate the conversation and don't give her time to respond.

You'll have to find similar methods of response for all her different charades, and it won't be easy either doing so or dealing with her reactive behavior. Expect that at times she'll be more angry. Think of it as driving on a dirt road filled with potholes and bumps. You never know when you'll hit one.

Thank you for your response. We have asked her to make a list. It worked for a short time, but then she just quit. The biggest issue is with the hiding of the doctor's appts and her failure to admit she's made a mistake. It's not like we are ever angry with her, but when she acts like she did nothing wrong, that is where our frustration comes out. This family is a very manipulative family. Words are analyzed for any aggressiveness. It makes witty retorts ammunition for future. I have taken to not talking when we are visiting just because I don't want to give them ammunition for the future. I have half a mind to take her out for lunch and when she tries to get nosy or gossipy, just look her in the eye and say, "MIL, this is a very stressful topic. I know that you can't handle stress so we are not going to discuss or talk about anything related to that. If you want to discuss books or the weather, I would be more than happy to talk but any and all family matters are off the table until you have gained the strength and health needed for these tough family topics." I'm not sure that she would get the message, but I would feel like I had done something. On the other hand, she would probably tell her family that I was rude and trying to keep in the dark about my relationship with her son.... when in all honesty...it's none of her business.

If this woman can go on a two week cruise why in the hell are you guys running at her every whim? I don't mean to be snarky but clearly some tough love is in order here.

There have been other discussions on this forum about how we sometimes enable our elders behavior and their refusal to allow outside help. I had to pull back from my folks a little. They don't mind me working my ass off for them but refuse to let paid help in the house.

And if these folks have the funds for a two week cruise it would seem as though they could hire some help and ease up on poor Hubs.

I think I might be tempted to reply "that must be difficult for you. How are YOU going to handle it"? If she gives some helpless reply, respond with "hmmm" and quickly change the subject". Use that same reply over and over.

Thanks Windyridge for your response. I feel your frustration from your comment. LOL They did have 24 hour live in help but we got the feeling that after a while, the woman was so exposed to the dysfunction, she couldn't take it any more either. Currently, they have a woman who comes in to cook and do light chores during the day. The stuff my husband does is more related to home-owner upkeep that neither of his parents are able to do and the aide can't do.

Tough love is definitely needed and already tried but she turns it around to appear like we are emotionally abusing her if we try to set boundaries. In the fall, we all sat down to do a "check in" to discuss how we all could better help each other. Hubs and I set boundaries for days when he needs to work on setting up his business and that was immediately ignored due to home remodeling that she needed done ASAP! It didn't really need to be done, she just made it a HUGE deal until hubs caved. All tough love is met with her excuse of "My health conditions requires me to stay away from stress." So this excuse causes us to put off talking to her, which creates more friction and no seeming way to deal with it.

We have asked them to be honest with us and to tell us if we are going to far or to tell us what they need. Their answers are always the same; "We don't want to be a burden." or "We just want you to be happy." But who are we kidding, they can't be honest with themselves so how in the world are they going to be honest with us!

They really don't have the funds for a 2 week cruise, but did it anyway. The financial stuff is it's own quagmire. :(

Rainmom, this reply has been used. She responds with "I don't know what I'm going to do. What should I do?" When we don't give her an answer, she retreats and isolates herself by watching TV and ignores the problem until it's too much for her to handle....then she makes herself sick from the stress and we are in to hospital again and my husband cleaning up after her. We came to manage her health care, not clean up after her. She's got like 15 doctors.

A person with narcissistic personality disorder will never admit they were wrong, apologize for being wrong or anything else like that. You can wait till the cows come home...and it will never happen.

I work for the cruise industry. If she is well enough to take a two week cruise you are d@mn straight that she doesn't need help with every little thing. Cruises are stressful, even for healthy people (planning, executing, packing etc)

You won't be able to fix her. Let her handle her own illnesses, relationship with her husband (why won't he help her?) etc.

No is a complete sentence.

Angel

Fire, it sure sounds like you understand the dynamics here and know what you have to do. It's just a matter of hanging tough.

My own situation is similar except I stayed put and did not move across the country to care for my folks. If I were there I can see how it would be soooooo easy to get trapped in the daily grind of fixing everything, cleaning, doc appointments and all the rest.

If you think about it, many elders of our parents generation got to enjoy their retirements. Cruises, traveling, time with the grandkids. My folks weren't caregivers for my grandparents, they put them in nursing homes. And keep in mind, most of our grandparents didn't live to be 98 like my parents probably will due to the marvels of modern medicine. My folks have had close to 30 years of enjoyable retirement. It's not fair for us to give up our best years consumed with the nightmare of elder caregiving.

That may all sound a bit hard@ss but it's true. Nothing has steeled my resolve more than reading all the horror stories of lives gone down the drain of caregiver h3ll on this forum.

True that Windy!

You are trying to reason with someone who refuses to discuss anything reasonably, to hold to agreements, or to consider you. SET BOUNDARIES and do not get into discussions. Decide what you will do, not do, and refuse to discuss. You are losing anyway. Put on your big adult pants and refuse the childishness.

Wow. Thanks so much for the support everyone. Hubs just got back from an appt with his mom. He told her that he wants all her siblings to come visit so that he can have a sit down with them. He says he won't "let her paint the picture with her brush". He wants them to know what levels she will go to. He doesn't want to be the only one that is aware of her self-destructive nature.

The dr at the appt told her for the umpteenth time to see a psychiatrist. She doesn't think that she needs it. *groan*

It's getting harder to deal with her passive-aggressive nature. What adds insult to injury is that she was a terrible mom to begin with. She adopted my husband because she had to have an early hysterectomy. Then proceeded to be negligent. She ended up sending him to boarding school because she didn't want to deal with him. Both MIL and FIL have told my husband that he's "not really part of the family". How are we supposed to continue to care when this is their attitude?

Her biological son wants nothing to do with their care. Won't bring his children and never visits unless it's to get something from them. The biological son also has the same "head-in-the-sand" trait. Doesn't want to discuss anything stressful or negative. *heavier groan*

FIL is unable to care for her due to a stroke that he had a few years ago. He has never fully recovered.

God that sounds like my moo. Acts stupid. I posted another question, but your mil sounds like my moo. I have found that swatting the question and action back into their (the narcs) court seems to work wonders, but you have to put up with the freakin whining and temper tantrums. You need to take care of yourself and your relation with your husband or this biddy will destroy both.

Angel, Thank you. Part of me knows that we are fighting an up-hill battle that we will never win. My husband is very much a "deal with it now or it festers" type of person. It's hard for someone like that to just let themselves be walked on or to accept insult from someone without confronting them about it. Me, on the other hand, most of the time I'm completely oblivious to the insult and just carry on my way. I don't know how to help my husband through this other than to listen.

Letting her deal with her own illness is what got her so sick to begin with. She's got some autoimmune disease that effects the muscles. It's pretty convenient for her cuz not a lot of people have it so she can claim it's flared up and we can't argue with her about it. She has like 15 doctors and NONE of them communicate with each other. If she was just regular old, we'd probably leave her alone, but since she's got this crazy rare disease, she needs the help managing the doctors, the medications and the PT.

Her husband is a stroke survivor who has never fully recovered...not to mention also narcissistic. They have been "married" for 40 years but never really married, like they have never had a husband/wife relationship. They can't even talk to each other about stuff. They are not friends, mostly roommates living in the same house. He lives in the basement, she gets the upstairs. This whole family is like nothing I have ever experienced. I have NO idea how my husband became the person that he is. He is the complete opposite of them.

Windyridge, that is an interesting way to think about it. Their parents lived a nice retirement but they are afflicted with illness and can't enjoy it. Well, they COULD enjoy it if they wanted to. Granted, travel is a bit harder now and usually discouraged by the doctors. They were global travelers before they got sick. We know that they are having a hard time accepting their sudden afflictions, but everything we try to help them gets rejected. We have suggested so many groups, hobbies, day trips....she wants nothing to do with them. She wants a social life, but doesn't want to do the work to have one. Again, fighting an illogical battle with logic. up-hill battle. It's just so hard to accept a complete lack of interest on her part when all she wants is to be healthy....and when she is...she's still not happy.

I deal with this type behavior so much. The way I handle it is by not making her too important in my mind. So what if she thinks I do something wrong? The world keeps turning and I wake up in the morning. This is not meant to sound snarky, but you have to give someone permission to make you feel bad.

The other thing I do is turn it on her. For example, she'll say her blood sugar reading is too high because I put so much stress on her earlier. I'll say it is more likely caused by that pack of crackers she ate a few minutes back. She has dementia, so it doesn't really stick, but it does back her off from blaming me for something that wasn't my fault.

AMEN, Windy! Truer words were never spoken!!!

JessieBelle, you're right. It's not so much that we feel bad, my husband is beyond having any empathy for her/them. Maybe it's more that we see an issue and we want to fix it. Right now, the issue is more of her bad-mouthing him to the rest of the family and having to hear crap from all of them. NONE of them live close. We suspect that she's telling her siblings that my hubs is emotionally abusing her. We're waiting for the back-lash. He wants to address her disrespect and abuse towards him and she doesn't see that she's done anything wrong. Hubs suspects that if she admits that she did something wrong, then it opens the door to her admitting that she was a horrible mother. We're at a stand-off and have no idea how to process it.

Hubs and I try very hard to not let it affect our lives. We try to have a very separate life. We need to get out more.....right now he is so emotionally drained he doesn't want to go anywhere.

Fire, I know what you mean about your MIL not want to admit to things. It's like they have butterflies and bluebirds fluttering about when they talk about themselves. Everyone else is the bad guy. :-)

I just thought of something. Could you MIL be a borderline personality? If she is, trying to set her straight won't work. Read a bit about borderline personality disorder and see if she fits the profile. My mother is a borderline personality. If I try to say things to her, she talks over me. If I ever get on to her, she starts crying and tells me not to fuss at her, that her mother and father never fussed at her, and that she and my father never, ever argued. The truth was that they rarely even spoke to each other. Borderline personality often includes narcissism and dependency. And it almost always includes blaming others, instead of taking personal responsibility. Borderlines can make you crazy. There's really no changing them. All you can do is stay back from the things they are doing. They love and appreciate you, then they hate you and think you're doing bad things. It helped me a lot when I read about it. My mother may not have the disorder, but she has so many of the characteristics. You may find the same for your MIL.

Here's something about borderline personality disorder on this site. I didn't read it all this evening, but with 90 messages, it must be pretty good. We've had many people dealing with this disorder on AC.

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/borderline-personality-Narcissistic-mother-142833.htm

WOW, JessieBelle! Thanks! That is very helpful! It does sound like her. She does exhibit a number of the symptoms. Thank you so much for pointing that out. I saw a number of posts about this BPD but didn't know what it was referring to. Does this seem to be something that appears with a lot of older folks? A lot of the symptoms also sound like dementia.

Borderline personality develops early and is said to last a lifetime, because it's hard to treat. There's a lot about it online if you google it. Some people have really strong traits, though they may not have the disorder. I bet that people with this personality are avoided more and more as they get older.

Yeah, I've been googling the s*&^ out of it. My husband is very cautious about putting a label on things. I need to find the right resource to share with him or he might think I'm trying to get her committed! LOL

Just read this, had to look to see if I wrote it. Short story similar mil, just passed but for years same story. It affected our marriage I told husband there are priorities, you have to pick one, if it's me I will help you manage stress with your folks. She was a manipulator and husband a narcissist dementia. We also had her write down things and email to us, found if she didn't have immediate face to face attention. It cut down the demands in half.

Um. I'm not being entirely flippant: have you considered moving back across the country to get away from her?

LOL @ Churchmouse. LOL Yes. Our next move is to move closer to my family. I have 3 nephews that I hardly ever get to see. There is an inheritance that we are kind of taking care of, so we are a little hesitant to leave right now. But, yes. Leaving the area is our nuclear option. I laugh...I literally laughed when I read that...because we've had that escape plan since the beginning.

On our move down here a year and a half ago, we were 90 miles into the trip with a moving truck (him driving) and our personal car with three cats (me driving) when my husband got violently ill. We ended up spending 10 days in a town I had no idea how to get around in (good thing for Google Maps), with no money (we had budgeted just enough for the move), and hubs in the hospital. He was in the hospital for a total of 7 or 8 days, depending on how you count. I was stuck in a hotel with three cats! It was terrifying. During this stressful time, his family, parents and brother included, had the audacity to question us about how we were going to pay our bills when we got there. They offered no help (we had to beg for $$). His brother had the balls to offer to fly over and drive the rest of the way back under certain conditions. To top it off, they NEVER called to ask how he was doing! I can't believe the selfishness in that family. My parents were ready to drop everything to come help us.

After that ....interesting...encounter, we made sure to have an agreement. If our marriage starts to suffer, we are outta here!

Um. I really hope I'm wrong. But going on what you say: this lady has plenty of money for far too many doctors and frittering on cruises. You and your husband moved house across the country 18 months ago and/but during a very difficult (it must have been a nightmare) operation were so short of cash that you had to beg your husband's family for money. Instead of accepting your parents' kind offer to come and get you.

Meanwhile, every time your husband tries to discuss finances or practical management with his mother he gets shut down. Nobody in the family wants to talk about it? - or talk to him about it?

And now you'd like to move back but you, kind of, have an inheritance to take care of.

You do realise how this sounds, don't you?

And for heaven's sake, are the parents married or not? "Married: yes/no" is not a qualitative datum.

@churchmouse, Yes, you are wrong. We have no plans on moving. I like to daydream (it helps keep me sane) and that may have snuck into my previous post. I need to be more thoughtful when I write. IF we move again, it will be closer to my family.

I used my parents as an example. His parents did help us out, but help was never offered, we had to ask. Most people I know would offer or ask if there was anything they could do, but none of that came from his family.

His parents are married, but they do not have what I would call a "marriage".

In regards to the doctors, Yes, she has a lot but not 15, maybe closer to 7-8. All are necessary due to her comorbidities.

I'm sorry if my posts come off confusing. I'm treading on new ground. There is just SO MUCH to deal with that I have a hard time processing it all. Just when I think I've got it, something else pops up.

I don't really have anyone to talk to about this(other than hubs) and I'm just looking for some kind of direction. Sometimes I need to vent, this does not appear to be the place for it. Sorry. I'll try to be more tactful.

The most recent situation we are dealing with threw us for a loop and we are trying to figure out how to navigate. The suggestion about BPD was golden. I'm still researching but I hope that will help.

Thanks to all who supplied helpful and caring comments!

This is the place for venting. Feel free to do it. I vent on here so much that the people probably say Here's JessieBelle complaining again. It helps keep me sane and lets me get rid of some anger. I think it helps other people, too. When I write, some people will say they are going through the same thing. We can't really fix anything for each other, but it helps to have someone to talk to. So vent away.

The original post subject caught my interest, However it was impossible to read since it was a massive block of text.
Sorry when people post blocks many of us cannot read the content.

Here is the original post again...
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My MIL is a narcissistic drama queen. We moved across country to help manage her health care. Her medications were so out of whack that she was acting goofy and she was in the hospital every month for one illness or another.

My husband has been taking the brunt of the work and has done an amazing job getting her back on track and keeping her out of the hospital. Last year, we realized that our marriage was suffering a lot due to the stresses that she put on him. She feigned illnesses and always found something "important" for him to do over at her house. We realized that she was creating drama and
that helped us a bit with our approach to her.

Since her illness, she has had to retire and doesn't have the social outlet she once had. She has no desire to get out of the house to do things other than shop for food on a RARE occasion. She over exaggerates her health issues and has now taken to making herself sick in order to go to the ER for attention.

She is now taking advantage of my husband and trying to force him to manage her personal relationship with her abusive husband by saying that she was in the hospital because she was stressed out from her husbands abuses. When my husband attempted approach his dad, she got incredibly angry and said that she never told him to do that. My husband took her comment as a threat to her health. It's not my husband place and told her that he won't do it anymore.

Now she is even MORE angry and has taken to hiding dr appts from him, adding medications without dr visits, not eating and then taking opiates.

She has even taken to messing up her own medication dosage. This isn't the first time that she has taken advantage of a situation for her own personal attentions. She's manipulative and frustrating. When my husband tries to approach her and have an open and frank discussion with her, she tells him that she has some kind of illness that makes it so she can't handle stress, which includes having heart-to-heart conversations about relationships.

When we DO try to talk to her, she zones out like a freakin' teenager! She has NO problem handling the stress that comes with traveling for a 2 week cruise! We are at our wits end trying to figure out how to talk to this woman.

She can NEVER admit that she has done anything wrong. She falls into the "I'm the victim", but she has created the environment herself and refuses to see her part in it.

How can we tell her that she's being horrible and that we know she's being manipulative? How can we tell her that she is ruining the last good relationship she has by being manipulative?

How does one handle their sanity with a person who believes that they can do no wrong? MIL is 75.