How to find out how much my Mom's SSI actually is even though another sibling has POA?

JeffST, we really need more information? So, I'm going to ask a lot of questions.

Sorry to hear this, but the POA is the only one who can access that information from the bank. Do you have any idea of your mom's financial situation before the POA sibling took over? If the POA has been spending your mother's money on her care, then there might not be much money left. How long has the POA sibling been overseeing your mothers care?

Also, unlike a person who has guardianship over someone who has been declared incompetent, the person with a POA does not have to file a report of how the money is being spent. Now that might be different in your state, but that is usually the case. Some people who have POA send copies of bank statements to siblings, but they are not required to. I never did, but I did keep good records. The POA must keep good records to help the CPA prepare the parent's taxes at the end of the year.

What exactly do you mean by "just hand writes what he spends"? Are you talking about just writing checks or just making a handwritten list of what he has spent and how much it was? If it is a list of what the money has been spent on and how much it was, then what is the money being spent for?

Does your mother live in a house that she's paid for or in an apartment that she rents? Either way, I don't see why the POA can't just let the siblings come in and select the memorabilia. Is there a Will and is anything mentioned in it about who gets what of the family stuff? How much stuff are we talking about? A whole house or just an apartment? Why does it need to be in storage for 2-3 months?

How is no money an excuse for not taking her to a nursing home if the doctor says she needs one and if she would qualify for medicaid to pay for it. No money is more of an argument for sending her to a nursing home if that is where she needs to be and you can't just send someone to a nursing home, they must meet certain criteria of need and how it will be paid for.

Is the POA working on getting medicaid for your mother? The application process for Medicaid involves looking back over bank statements for he past 5 years to see how the money has been spent, was it spent for her care and how much if any was gifted? Plus, your mother can only have so much in savings and only get so much money per month to qualify.

How old is your mother? What is the condition of her mental and physical health? Has her doctor said that she needs to be in a nursing home?

I'd also like to know how involved have you and the other siblings been in your mother's care or has all of this fallen upon the POA sibling? What difference is it going to make knowing how much money she gets from social security?

I would try having a family meeting with the POA to discuss what is going on first before trying to go over their head. If you take an antagonistic approach of accusing them, then that could damage family relationships.

Mother needs skilled nursing home care. She is already on Medicaid. No problem for NH costs.

As soon as mother moves into NH all of her income (minus $45/month) will go to the NH. But if her lease isn't up and she isn't moved out of her current place she will owe rent there and/or storage costs. She won't have any income to pay those costs.

It seems to me that what she gets per month is not very relevant. What matters is
1) when is her lease up?
2) what would it take to end the lease earlier?
3) what is the long-term disposition of her furniture to be? Is there anything to prevent that disposition to happen ASAP with some stuff, and with all of it the final month of the lease?

Who has health care power of attorney (aka medical proxy)? That person should be making decisions about how soon Mother needs a nursing home. Then POA needs to work to make that happen financially. It really doesn't matter if the SS amount is $800 or $1600. And it doesn't matter if she moves in Feb or June -- something has to be done with her property the final month she is renting. If she can't go to a NH because she can't afford to move/store stuff now, how could she at any time in the future? And yet the move has to be made.

Personally, I think family energy would be better directed at solving the problem of how to handle property disposition before Mother moves to NH, and also dealing with the terms of the lease. Trying to retroactively oversee how POA managed the money in the past seems a waste of time and cause for hard feelings.

Most seniors living on SS scarcely have enough money to meet living expenses month to month. It seems unlikely to me that POA could have been skimming off the top without seriously depriving your mother. Do the other siblings think that was happening? Because that is the only reason I can think of for fussing over the past SS amount.

Mother appointed the POA. The POA does not owe the siblings an accounting. Though why he doesn't just say what the income and outgo have been and shut everyone up is a mystery to me. Nevertheless. if mother is satisfied with how he has handled her finances, it really is none of the siblings' business.

(Reading between the lines a little, I wonder if there are some hidden issues here. Such as POA gives lip service to agreeing to NH but doesn't really want it to happen, or other siblings have prior grudges against POA. Nothing is ever straight-forward in families, is it?)

It sounds like you are caught in the middle. Someone needs to stand up and direct everyone's attention to solving the current lease/property issues so that Mother can get the care she needs. Can that someone be you?

Having no money for a nursing home is not a valid excuse since this sibling can apply for Medicaid on behalf of your mom and Medicaid, once approved, will pay for the nursing home. Until then most nursing homes will allow someone to stay as long as they're in the Medicaid process and are handing over the person's income each month which may be why the sibling with the POA doesn't want to put your mom in a nursing home.....they'd lose access to your mom's money.

Anytime I hear of a POA being secretive it sounds the alarms. If someone isn't doing anything wrong then someone with POA should welcome questions and be forthright with any information.

Jeff, the average SS check is about $1200. Mom has to pay those caregivers. There is no money left over. In a Nursing Home, she will get $45 a month, no more. That isn't even enough to cover co-pays. There are no funds for taxes, utilities, storage or anything else. Do the math in your head. Use a pencil if you must.

Okay: your POA sibling says that your mother can't go into a nursing home because there's no money to pay for moving and storage of her things or to finance payment of rent for the remainder of the lease term.

Your other siblings think that there is money, or if there isn't, there should be, and that your POA sibling is either lying or has been mismanaging your mother's affairs. They want to know what your mother's monthly income is in order to prove it.

And then what?

Your mother still needs to be moved to a nursing home. All of whatever amount she receives will be paid directly to the nursing home starting immediately upon her admission. (Your siblings do understand that the money will no longer go through the POA sibling's hands, don't they?). If your mother needs that level of care, that's what you siblings should be figuring out.

For heaven's sake, someone should review the lease, see if there's an escape clause, talk to the landlord, etc.

Is there any way to reboot the discussion with the POA sibling? If everything is on the up and up (even if the record keeping is a bit informal) the POA must feel totally hammered on. Can you mediate?

I actually think I understand what's going on here.

The sibling that is POA is also on the lease, and so if/when your mom goes into a nursing home, that sibling is going to be responsible for carrying out the terms of the lease. If your mom's belongings aren't out by a certain date, the sibling will be responsible for one month's rent. If he gets all of your mom's stuff out of the apartment, what is he going to do with it?

Am I right?

Why don't you just ask your sibling that is POA how much your mother gets in SS every month? Why would that be a horrible thing? You don't have to ask in an accusatory manner. $45 certainly isn't enough to pay rent nor for a storage unit. Or, instead of bringing up the money issue, why don't you & your siblings try to figure out a solution to the problem? For example---have everybody get together one weekend, get a dumpster & clean the apartment out. Keep the stuff your mother needs, get rid of the stuff she doesn't need. Speak to the landlord & explain the situation, see what can be done. Don't make it about the money, make it about what your mother needs & how you're ALL going to get that accomplished.

Jeff - this has got to be so difficult for all & everybody is under stress. If your 500 miles away it's especially hard as what you are hearing is piecemeal & filtered through others viewpoints.

About SS, the information on the amount & deductions (this would be taken out for Medicare) will be in 2 documents: the annual awards letter which is mailed in Dec & the tax/income statement which is mailed in January. I'd suggest trying to find these from last year & the 2015 award letter that just got mailed. If the caregiver/POA sibling cant seem to find these or won't work with you, I'd clearly but firmly make them aware that whomever applies for Medicaid for mom when she goes into a NH will have to provide these for the Medicaid application & also must have them for the NH to view to decide IF they will even accept mom as a "Medicaid Pending" resident. The NH will need & must be paid by mom as her co-pay (this is also known as the SOC - share of cost) and this SOC is based on their income. If mom gets other income or retirement, those awards letters too will be needed as well.

SS is very difficult for anyone but the actual reciepient to get access to the account. SS doesn't recognize POA's for even more fun, so calling SS will be totally frustrating and you get nowhere. BUT as poa you can sit with mom and go online to do things with SS like change banks direct deposit, change of address, get old awards statements. Someone is going to havebto get these for the medicaid application eventually.

About the amount of SS income, if its based on your dads work history and dad would be now in his 90's, then if he had an average income during his working life, then mom probalby has a SS survivor benefit of about $600-700 a month of which about $100 is taken out for Medicare. If dad was low wage earner or self employed so his business made income but he personally did not, the survivor benefit could be even lower, like maybe $400-500 a month. There could well be very little income, your caregiver sibling could be right about the $.

Jeff also about the storage situation. I'm assuming that the thought is that mom is going to need to be in a NH as you mentioned Feb 1st? Once mom goes into a facility & applies for Medicaid, that will mean that to qualify for Medicaid mom has spent - down all of her assets to about 2K and that all her monthly income is now required to be paid to the NH as her SOC. All mom will have is a small personal needs allowable of $35-90 a month (depends on your state, for my mom it's $60), which is really just enough to pay for beauty salon & some clothing replacement. She will not have $ to pay for storage unit. so family will have to pay for it. There could be continuing family friction over these costs. Often the units get abandoned......

If mom has a home or other debts, those too will need to be paid by family if they want to keep the house or pay life insurance premiums, or on her funeral policy, etc. Essentially she will not have income anymore once in NH. Whomever is doing the application for mom, really should look hard at her debt before they do the application to see if asset $( like her savings or if she has cash value in insurance policies) is better getting or paying off her funeral policy or on dental work or medical items (eyeglasses, hearing aids, highnend wheelchair) before the application. Otherwise family will end up having to pay for these as mom has no real income to pay.

Jeff, I wrote near the start of this thread that the POA is the only one who has access to that information from the bank. So NO, there is no other way to find out that information unless.

A. You were the POA which you are not. The bank will tell you no if you ask.
B. You saw her bank statement which I gather you have not.
C. You prepared her taxes which you don't.
D. You could ask social security, but they will not give you the answer.
E. File for Guardianship by taking your mom to court to prove she is incompetent and thus gain total control of her medical and financial situation. That costs about $5,000 and requires two doctors to say she is incompetent. However, it does not sound that there is enough time for that.

What not just ask the POA nicely.

So, to say it again, the neither yourself nor the other siblings have the legal right to get the information you desire from the bank or from social security because none of you have her POA. And the bank and social security is going to look you in the face and say, no have POA, no way.

Well, if you insist on taking this to court to find out how much her social security check is then go ahead, but be prepared for a lot of damaged relationships. Is all that really worth finding out how big the check is? Has anyone even asked the POA how much her check is?

I refer to that money you are describing as float money. It's the money in mom's account that should not be sent to the NH because her billing will start on Day one when she enters and this float money is money she has accumulated for the prior month. That money goes fast. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Even if you use it for moving truck, storage fees, it won't last long. Maybe 2-3 months for storage. Then who is going to pay? You also may have her life insurance, and other bills that she will not be able to cover long term. Are the children going to split those?

I'm still not clear on the POA saying there's no money to go to NH. Assuming she qualifies, they take her income, minus her monthly maintenance amount, plus what Medicaid kicks in. If you qualify, there is no "not affording to go." You may not be able to go into a Private Pay facility, but I don't get what he is saying. If she needs to go, then press it with him.