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This is part 2 See my first response below.

Regarding vaccines
The Government passed a law some years ago saying that if a vaccine was produced in good faith ( and they all are) then the pharmaceutical company could not be sued if something was wrong and the vaccine was made using proper techniques.
This is why BIG Pharma is making vaccines for EVERYTHING now. When I grew up there were like 6 vaccines - now there is something like 22.

A note about immunity
As we age vaccines become LESS EFFECTIVE. This information is readily available on the CDC website and yet no one ever reads it. They push flu vaccines on the elderly and yet never tell them the WHOLE truth.

I am not against vaccines- some of them are absolutely life saving- but I do believe that NO information should be kept from the public , including the money incentives and things like the fact that the flu vaccine is only 60% effective .

You are either from the camp that believes everyone is stupid and needs to be told what to do ( a camp which I feel is very patronizing and condescending), or you are like me, and feel that given ALL the information people, are perfectly capable of making decisions which are right for them.
As far as COVID-19 and quarantine. I think politicians are politicizing this virus and trying to force people to choose a party. The FACT is if you feel comfortable going out you should be able to and if you are too afraid you can stay home. No one should be trying to tell anyone what to do. People are smart enough to make their own choices. People who have a higher risk should be staying home, they have been warned. They said Georgia was gonna go up in flames for opening early and Georgia cases continue to go down.
Yesterday I went out to Lowes. This particular Lowes is just outside a 55 snd older community in my state. I was surprised to find many active seniors shopping at Lowes with no face masks on!! They were all zooming round with their carts like BRING IT!!! LOL. A life lived in fear and confinement is called prison. I am in healthcare so I certainly believe in everything the scientists say. But I also have been in medicine for over 30 yrs and I know about every decade or so the scientists who were certain about something 10 yrs ago have to come out and apologize for being wrong. Eggs are evil bad for you cause heart attacks!! OOpsie we were wrong about eggs they are ok! TYLENOL is good for you! NO ones allergic to it KIDS can have it its great stuff!!! OOOpsie Tylenol causes liver failure. Be smart. be safe and look for answers then make a choice best for you!
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cherokeegrrl54 May 2020
Thank you for your very wise words!
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When I saw the question I assumed it would be about how this lockdown is affecting those living in personal care (assisted living) homes, many with some degree of dementia, who are unable to have family visits, who get very little individual attention from aides (understaffing), sit in their rooms alone for most of the day including mealtimes, have very few activities among resident (there is no virus in the place at all yet, thankfully). They are not thriving. They are deteriorating cognitively and physically because of the last of activity. And the home is simply not creative abouf finding safe alternatives for the residents. At the end of this I believe I will find my family member whose functioning has deteriorated. If anyone on this forum has any ideas, please speak up! We simply cannot keep the elderly locked up and left to decline, out of fear of this virus.
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Shell38314 May 2020
Amen to that!!
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One thing ruined is trust in government. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad, given the current government. I know that we would all feel safer if we could trust our government leaders and our government agencies. None seem to have much credibility now.
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Lvnsm1826 May 2020
There is definitely some kind of agenda. In my opinion, we can only trust G-d.
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Thank you for replying, thepianist. Everyone is deteriorating. Everyone's mental wellbeing is declining. We cannot keep healthy people locked up and left to decline out of fear of this virus. Everyone matters. Young people matter!

We need to come together and figure our way out of it together. Government is not the answer to this problem - government is the problem. Communities and families need to solve this problem together. People are the government. We are the government. At least in the USA, we are the people and we are the ones who are supposed to be forming a more perfect union.

Yet, we the people did take our eyes off the ball and left much too much to "the government". Going to the voting booth and then thinking that our civic duty is done is not how it works. We have to come together and shrink faceless government bureaucracy, fire the politicians, take back the money they waste on their political pet projects, and be vigilant about what's left of our democracy.

If we cannot trust each other then truly all is lost.
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I agree Ny daughter, people should be allowed to work at their business while taking safety precautions. People have family to support.

Some people out there think if you go back to work, you are hurting people. No, you can be safe and practical at the same time.

Long term lockdown isn't practical. Just find safe ways to do things instead.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Thanks for replying, Lvnsm1826! I agree, and cannot understand how so many people can justify throwing 36,000,000 out of work. I heard some people comparing the lockdown to when the Germans were bombing London during WW2, and what if someone had said "I have a right to keep my lights on!" They really are grasping at straws at this point, trying to keep everyone scared because that's how they have control.

Politicians are evil, and I think we would all do well to remember that the Founding Fathers never ever intended for there to be career politicians. In fact, quite the opposite. Political representation was supposed to reflect the communities from where one lived and worked.

When was the last time "the government" solved a problem? Not even governors are fixing things. The tent cities in California sprouted up long before this virus. How come so much money gets spent but nothing seems to get fixed?
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Colorado governor is pushing back on the COVID death counts. Those numbers being reported are inflated because they include those who died with the virus or suspected of having the virus, but didn't die because of the virus.

I'd like to see a large scale investigation of all the death counts around the country to see how many actually died of the virus and how many were fraudulently included so that the hospitals could charge more money.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
We must get big money out of health care. Since when do hospitals need to look like hotels, with hotel-type amenities including serenity gardens, business centers and lounges, and aromatherapy rooms?

We must hold doctors accountable. Doctors admits patients to hospitals. When a patient gets poor care or an infection, we should hold the admitting doctor accountable. Doctors don't seem to care about people much anymore; they too care about profits. We must make them start caring again. We must complain to the medical boards when we or our loved ones go into hospital and get poor care. Hospitals can't make money if doctors stop admitting patients because of lack of cleanliness or bad staff.

My neighbor had to go to the ER this week for an abscess. She did not want to go but it was big and infected and she finally had to go. She was terrified. Her daughter is an ER nurse, and told her that her hospital was not cleaning the rooms as thoroughly as they had when this virus first showed up. She said the hospital had made a big show of cleaning for a few weeks, but she didn't see those cleaners anymore. Anyway, my neighbor said she threw her clothes away upon returning home from the ER.
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Many are struggling now with these questions; with all the hardships whether financial or emotional or health. I wish you strength to endure. We will all get through this. My parents had so many stories of the depression. We have not had to face a whole lot in the current generations as Americans. Our time has come. You raise many thoughtful points. Wishing you luck as we continue to endure. Many are struggling with the best way forward. Many are in need. Many are very frightened.
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I had been avoiding this thread, but just read through all of it.

I have to say I am so very happy that I live in BC and have Dr. Bonnie Henry as our Chief Medical Officer at the helm of our Covid-19 ship. I feel Canadians are also lucky to have a federal government that is not making this a partisan issue.

Canada has offered considerable financial support to Canadians who are not working due to Covid-19. $2000 per month for up to 4 months, money for students who are unable to find a summer job, business loans and more. Yes, it will have to be paid back over time, but it is better to keep families and businesses afloat so they will have the ability to pay taxes in the future.

We never had a lock down in BC. Some businesses, such as personal care were forced to close, and restaurants had to do take out to delivery, but most were allowed to stay open, clothing stores, garden centres, mechanics and more. What has been emphasized is social distancing, staying 2m or 6 feet apart when outside of our homes. Grocery stores limit the number of customers inside and have one way aisles to limit contact between customers.

As of Tuesday we are entering phase 2 and personal care businesses can reopen as long as they meet safety rules. We can increase the number of people in our social bubble.

Most schools and all universities did close and as of next week elementary schools will reopen (school year ends June 30th), but families will have to option of sending their kids back to school or continuing to home school them.

Here in Canada the hardest hit populations have been seniors in care facilities and more recently meat and produce packing plants. One oil camp was infected too and workers heading home from it dispersed it to other communities.

One thing BC residents were asked to do, not a health order, was to stay away from second/vacation/recreation properties. This I have not followed. I have on three occasions gone to our beach property. I bring all my groceries with me and as I have over 7 acres and our place is at the end of the road, there is no risk of be being a vector and spreading it in this community.

Our neighbour at the cabin has done the same. No I have not been visiting when them, but I see them on the beach and the dogs come over to play with mine.

My big challenge and it is a serious one, is finding a job. I graduated from university this month and very few companies in my field of study are hiring. I have a healthy emergency fund and am sure I will find a professional position before those funds run out. I am willing to take a menial job in the mean time to help extend my funds.
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worriedinCali May 2020
Tothill, is the $2000 a month a livable wage in BC? And is it in addition to the normal unemployment I assume people there are receiving? Canada’s government seems to have done a good job taking care of its citizens! We have a new stimulus package in the works that would give Americans $2000 a month but it’s got a million strings attached and I don’t know if it will pass. I don’t know why the politicians can’t write a straight forwarded bill that puts money in our pockets? All we get are 800 page bills that toss money everywhere like it grows on trees. Just write a straight forward bill to help the average joe and then work on another one that gives 50 million to the arts and pelosi’s pet projects!
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NYDIL, to elaborate on what my issues are with hospitalists, I have seen them wait until the advocate leaves the room to talk with a semi conscious person that is out of their head, then put a DNR in their chart. I have seen them misinterpret what has been said and chart their error causing unnecessary tests or lack thereof.

I escorted an elderly woman to the ER and they kept trying to run me off, I refused and they didn't have a clue what was wrong until my husband said, it appears that she is having a stroke, shouldn't they have recognized the very obvious symptoms?

They have the attitude that they know more about you than you do and they don't listen to anything the patient or advocate is saying.

They refuse to give information in laymen terms so that they can be understood and they are easily offended, which is a huge red flag for me.

I could go on and on about the lack of professionalism and lack of care, they seem to have missed the part about doing no harm.

Oh, they also tend to wear their name tags turned inwards and I have actually had 1 refuse to turn it so I could see his name. Then lied to administration when I complained.

It is just gut wrenching that medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death, yet the media hides this information from the public. But the above attitudes are a breeding ground for experimentation on human beings.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Thank you for the additional information about your experiences with hospitalists. It's eye opening, and frightening. No one in any profession should be allowed to remain anonymous, work in darkness and be all secretive. Even maids at hotels wear name tags. Anytime a doctor fails to introduce himself or herself to me by name it puts me on edge. It's basic manners not to mention professional.
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dboyer, you are correct, the numbers are suspect.

I just find it very sad that people are back to business as usual and not social distancing and using common sense to protect the vulnerable population.

We have been blessed that our lives didn't really change during the lockdown. We have been able to continue to work, we wear masks and gloves, sanitize items that get lots of handling. To see people not being careful is sad.

We don't fear this virus, we have faith that we are protected. We just want to help protect those that can't protect themselves and I believe that means doing lots of hand washing, social distancing in tight quarters and keeping our breath contained in case we are carriers.

It is so unfortunate that the media has misled the people, now they don't believe that it is really an issue, so they are not using common sense and good hygiene. That is what I have seen since Friday.
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Real, you have great point. We should all be careful for both our self and others. And use common sense and consideration.

I think what people want is the politicians to trust them to be careful, and not use this for power hunger
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
LVNsm1826, I stopped caring about what the politicians want a long time ago. Politicians don't trust the people. They need us to be afraid.

It's the politicians who lack common sense and consideration. And worriedinCali is right about why they can't and won't write clean bills.
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Isthisrealyreal - We the people cannot allow things to go back to business as usual. It's our choice where we shop. It's our choice which businesses we support. It's our choice which doctors we see!

Speaking about doctors, I had a telemedicine followup with a hand surgeon (nothing serious), and it was both safe and convenient for me. When I went to see him the first time he didn't touch my hand. After keeping me waiting in the waiting room for nearly 90 minutes, he asked me to do some moves and saw me for all of 5 minutes. When his secretary scheduled the follow-up, I asked for telehealth and she was like "Well, he doesn't like it so if he wants to see you in person, I'll reschedule you." Oh really???!!!
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MAYDAY May 2020
hubby saw a hand specialist surgeon.. about 15 years ago... every day he feels those 2 titanium screws on his thumb hitting on a nerve... specialist.. ...
everyday, every minute, it's a reminder. surgeons love to do their specialty,, operate..
SURGEON... they love to operate.. if he cannot give you the time you need to discuss surgery...that may be your answer...
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OK, just another rant on here.. and believe me I do appreciate all the love people are throwing at the healthcare workers, I really do, But my giant hospital is covered with signs saying how we are healthcare heros, how much they love us.. etc. So a week ago all the employees got a email that we will not be getting raises or contributions to our retirements,, for 2 years!. Nice time to tell us that! Seems the hospital is taking a financial hit from the virus.. even though most of the ICUs and units have already converted back to normal! And we have so many "Vice Presidents" of this and that that we joke every time we get a memo that "that will need a new VP" Maybe fire a few of them and pass the money down to those of us who are actually working the front lines! Even the meal deliveries we get are not from the hospital,, they are from wonderful local businesses and pt families! Every time I leave work, and go to pay the $13. they charge me to park every shift I want to kick those dang signs!
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
That's really disheartening that you won't be getting a raise or retirement contribution for 2 years. You have to pay $13 to park? That's an hour's salary for some people! It's outrageous that hospitals have been allowed to get away with bare bones staffing of nurses and CNAs, while they expand their C suites.
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Two weeks ago my boss wanted me to come back to work [I was working from home] and I dug in my heels and said no. I told him I am listening to the scientists and will follow their suggestions. My boss reply was pretty much "the scientists don't know what they are talking about".

My boss was out and about, even playing golf. Whenever I did pop into the office to grab a file I made sure he wasn't there, and washed my hands several times as we have a bar sink in our suite. I noticed the foam soap was always at the same level as when the last time I used it, so I knew my boss wasn't washing his hands.

Lo and behold, I get a call the other day, my boss is in the hospital with the C-19 virus. I hope he pulls through.

I worry about how many people my boss had infected along the way.... [sigh]. Such as putting his hands on the door handle of the exterior door of the building... pushing the elevator button inside and out.... hand on the door handle to our office.... the TV remote.... the coffee maker... file drawers.... telephone receiver/buttons.... anything metal or heavy plastic.

My primary doctor has Quest testing on-site, so I went there. The test is a blood test, not a swab test. So far I haven't been infected.

As for age, as I had mentioned before, my sig-other works at a cemetery. This virus know no age. It can hit anyone.

Be safe, my friends.
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Oh, FF, so sorry to hear about your boss!
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Her boss sounds like an arrogant dumba$$. I lack sympathy for him. I only have so much positivity in supply these days, and all of it is going toward those people who are infected by imbeciles such as FF's boss. The kindest thing I can say is that I hope her boss isn't the owner of the company so that if he kicks the bucket at least the company won't go out of business and more people won't lose their jobs.
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FF, I'm sorry, too, but am more concerned for you. I know you've been careful and precautionary, and hopefully your boss' careless attitude won't affect you. He has grandchildren, doesn't he? I wonder if any of his family have been affected.

Be safe, good friend; I'll be thinking of you and hoping that you are safe and don't become ill. I think though that since you didn't have direct contact with him and have protected yourself otherwise, you have a good chance of remaining safe.
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freqflyer May 2020
GardenArtist, we have a call into our primary doctor to see if we can get a second blood test for the virus, even if we have to dig into our own pockets to pay for it.

My boss is the first person I actually know to have caught the virus. My sig-other, who had worked for the Federal Gov, had learned several of his former co-workers, TSA Officers, had died from the virus, and they were decades younger then him :(
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Getting infected with the virus is NOT the death sentence that the media drills into everyone's head day in and day out. Unless you are in very poor health, you have little to fear. Most elderly in NH are in very poor health so that's why they make up the majority of the dead.

From one report I read, less than 30% of those admitted to hospitals for the virus need intensive care, that means more than 70% are not serious cases. And for those 80+ years old that are in the hospital, 90% will survive. Yes, 90% of old and weak 80 y.o. or older will survive the virus. I read somewhere that a 100 y,o. lady/man (?) contracted the virus and survived.

Healthy and even not so healthy people getting the virus is not something to get hysterical about. They/we will survive and their bodies will build antibodies to protect them against the virus if they come in contact again. The population as a whole can develop herd immunity.

My cousin (50 y.o.) who is a front line nurse got infected, and he recovered after a couple of weeks. A friend (late 40s and overweight ) got infected, and she recovered. And there are millions of survivors that the media won't talk about because that would not fit into their narrative.

Please people, stop this hysteria. People die everyday from all sorts of causes. Are we going to hide like this every flu season, too? How about abolish cars so no one will die from car accidents?
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MAYDAY May 2020
and abolish cigarettes, 480,000 people die yearly from diseases related to nicotine... and then eating habits, etc.. I hear you.... but going on tv daily to give the daily death toll from cigarette/nictoine/vaping is not going to go over very well.
Don't forget those curbs you see and step over to cross the street... someone trips on those can cause a massive headache/injury.
Beware of kicking off your underwear in the bathroom... it may get caught on your little toe, and you may end up with a broken foot... yes, I know...it sounds stupid, but it happened to a friend...
People... sometimes it's better not to have a dog on a leash that is retractable... yes, this too happens... the dog wrapped around its owner and tripped her = broken arm.
Bird flu, Swine Flu, SARS... when did these pop up? Political years? I did not look it up, but someone says that COVID is popping up since it's a political year, nothing like this will come around in 2021 since the wor.d will not be voting... whatever the case... be diligent, use your handiwipes, and your defense guards against whatever you think you may come up against... Do be diligent, do not sneeze into someones space, and if you do.. apologize..Let them know it was not intentional.
Gosh, if the upper beings say.. wear a mask into a store.. it's only for a portion of your day... Wear, it. I as at the post office a month ago, this man was holding a lot of boxes...mask and all,,, I did go up to him and asked him if he was ticklish... He couldn't move. And you can't see his mouth.. was he smiling? did he think I was as funny as I thought I was? Who knows... I myself needed the laugh...I was not so aware of eyes back then as I am now.. So I do apologize to that man with a bunch of boxes in line at the post office. I hpe he knows I was joking
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I will keep my answer short, honest, and simple.... A LOT.. and a lot more than that...
Why did this disease pop up? So many different reasons from so many people..
How, why, where, what?
Bats? Hygiene? culture of edibles? politics? no particular reason? Who,what, where, why.... the world as we know it, is changing.
This world is so much smaller nowadays... and has been, but now, we can't turn our necks... Well, my neck doesn't turn too well now anyway.. The poor guy behind me at grocery store only had one item... This mask I'm wearing steams up the reading glasses I need to read a label, is not comforting, so now I don't look around or beside me, nowadays. behind me (social or public distancing-whatever you name it) not much anywhere except in front... so he had to wait for my cart of groceries.. Normally I would have allowed him to go ahead of me... I felt bad...
He didn't seem to realize it either,,, so I guess it was ok....
I notice when I smile at someone... they are not smiling back.... :-[ Why.. I suppose is they too as I am are wearing a mask,,, we only see eyes. and sometimes they too seem "masked" over..
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peace416 May 2020
Saw this mask for sale online today. Black with white lettering "Keep your distance. Thank you! " Love it. But, went for the one with pattern of cute cartoon sheep all over it. Unseen sardonic smile on my face but my eyes will show a glint of humor.
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Wear your mask people! It saves lives!! Wear it every time you go out in public.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Exactly! At this point, I'm wearing a mask to protect myself. What others choose to do is their business but I'm wearing my mask to put a barrier between me and everybody else's germs. Anyone at risk - and we all are - ought to wear a mask. Not wearing a mask is a statement, and not a good one, in my opinion.

I also don't understand why more kids are not wearing masks. They are most likely super-spreaders. Masks with fun children's theme prints on them are available and yet I see hardly any small kids wearing masks. It's bothersome.
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I just read an article that says masks not properly cared for are actually more hazardous than no mask at all.

So, not washing them everyday, hanging them under your chin, that kind of behavior can put you at greater risk because you are trapping bacteria in your face.

Sheesh, it never ends with the conflict of what to do.

I think it is a whole lot of good old fashion cleanliness that has apparently become obsolete and cost prohibitive. What?!? I am making a list of businesses that I will not ever shop in again. These places should have been doing thorough cleanings at a minimum of weekly and heavy traffic areas daily. What has this world come to?
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
One of the things that really bothers me about the "public health experts" is that they make declarations such as "wear a mask" and assume that everyone knows how to wear it properly. Health care professionals are taught how to "don and doff" their PPE.

It's not that hard to teach people how to wear a mask properly. Don't touch the front of the mask with your hands. Put it on with clean hands and handle it by the ear loops. Remove it with clean hands by the ear loops. Wash the mask daily.

The answer isn't throwing up our hands and saying "oh well, masks are useless".

And I too am making a list of shops that will never again get my business! Cleanliness is next to godliness.
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Update: just got a call from MIL's facility. She has a fever and low oxygen, so they are testing her and we'll know in 48 hrs. Her reputable, very well-managed facility locked down tight immediately and has been extremely diligent. No visits. All deliveries/mail/flowers are quarantined for 24-48 hrs. Staff and residents constantly monitored. Not only did they have masks, they had face shields as well. Everyone has PPE. If her facility can't keep out the virus, what hope does anyone have of avoiding it? I can't help but think we are putting too much stock in the protection of the face masks. I'm not advocating to not wear them -- just saying they may not be the protection we think they are. Ugh.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Any updates on your mom, Geaton?
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NY DIL: I think there's so much hype, taken from health experts' advice and converted to mass media. One chain supermarket has announcements regularly, boringly repeating the standard mantras from the experts, as if anyone who reads online news or listens to guidelines on tv hasn't already heard them, and as if the supermarket has discovered something unique to share with the shoppers.

And all this goes on while some people still refuse to wear masks, yet the management to my knowledge hasn't acted on it, despite signs on the doors. The staff shouldn't be responsible for removing the non-maskers, especially given the hostility some of them show when challenged.

On Friday I saw at least a dozen people not masking, including one couple who I thought were classic high risks. Both were morbidly obese, slovenly, and cutting through aisles as they pleased.

I was thinking that eventually stores may have entrance monitoring, with some type of digital or photographic methods of highlighting noncompliers and barring their way, something like the subway turnstiles.

This all seems so dystopian, yet it may be necessary if people fail to comply.

Another thing I'd like to see implemented would unfortunately be a breach of medical ethics, but it's that anyone who admits to not wearing a mask in public be triaged for lower level attention. Why should noncompliers benefit from the same level of priority as compliers?
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TNtechie May 2020
Wow GA, I understand your fear and frustration, but I do not believe you have really thought your proposed reactions through to their logical conclusions.

Why should anyone be required to wear a mask to enter a public space? Recently our government was resisting people wearing face coverings on religious grounds because it interfered with identification. Even in the early CV shutdowns, mask wearing was discouraged for the general public. What legal basis would you deny care to someone who chooses to act differently than _you_ believe they should? The CDC has changed the recommendations and/or guidelines on wearing masks and the reasoning behind those guidelines so often to make any reasonable person's head spin.

Current thinking/guidelines is to wear a mask in public places WHERE SOCIAL DISTANCING CANNOT BE MAINTAINED to contain the respiratory spread _from_ an infected person, not to protect the non-infected from breathing respiratory droplets so much (because small particles get in most masks). That may be changing again since one recent study shows infection from droplets left on common use surfaces isn't as infectious as previously believed. And the increasing number of people who have recovered do not need to wear a mask at all. The CDC guidance also states people doing heavy exercise or with breathing problems should avoid wearing a mask. COPD suffers or people who asthma flairs may pass out as oxygen level falls from even limited mask wearing. Or maybe that couple you saw have lung or heart issues making long term mask wearing _immediately_ life threatening, instead of a low to moderate risk or catching CV _potentially_ life threatening. Shouldn't they be able to make the decision for themselves without any "mask shaming"?

What business wants to "enforce" ever changing _guidelines_ on their customers?

As far as reducing treatment for people who do not follow _your_ choices, would it be acceptable to deny or reduce treatment for people carrying the DNA strands identified for breast or ovarian cancer? After all, they could escape needing expensive treatments in their 40s and 50s by having much cheaper "preventive" hysterectomies and mastectomies in their 20s and 30s.

How about restrictions on people who have carrier genes for cancer, sickle cell, cystic fibrous, tay-sacks, diabetes, osteogenesis imperfecta, etc. having children? If these people were not _allowed_ to have children, all the known genetic based illnesses would be removed in one generation. Think of all the money we could save on both treatments and cure/treatments research. And all that needless suffering by children growing up with these disorders! All we need to do is sterilize the carriers and/or abort any carrier fetuses.

Concerned people who suspect they have genetic problems would avoid testing? Easily solved, just use the blood samples required for decades from newborns for genetic testing too.

Although I understand the thinking of current European medical and socialital influences supporting aborting disabled children (like those with down's syndrome), I cannot really say those are the areas I want to used for cost containment even in rationed single payer systems. So far those choices are still being made by the woman carrying the child, but how long will it be before that changes? Are you aware in some European countries as many as 90+% of all down syndrome babies are now "selectively" aborted? A woman wanting to carry a down syndrome baby to term will not easily find support or care even now.

I would much prefer to leave personal choices, medical and otherwise, to individuals and not to _any_ governmental agency. But then I am a libertarian and have a lot more faith in people than government bureaucracies even while observing a few acting badly; they probably won't kill any more people than governors sending CV positive residents back to NHs.
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I just wanted to update on this thread, had mentioned it on another. Regarding my post of May 18th, well my boss passed on the 21th.

I am both heartbroken and also angry. Angry because his death could have been prevented if he would have listened to the medical experts about precautions.... so sad.

My boss was at the golf course for his tee time when he felt so tired he couldn't get out of his car. Then it went down hill from there :(

Did anyone see the world news this evening? OMG, there was film of people all crammed together in a water park.... another of crowded beaches. Is life so throw away that one would risk becoming ill or catching the virus to pass onto others, just to go the the beach or water park?
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Sorry to hear, FF. I hope your job and company are secure.
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FF- I'm sorry about your boss. He should have taken better care of himself. I'm sure he had underlying health conditions, otherwise a healthy person wouldn't keel over dead like that.

As for the beach, I live near the beach and I go to the beach often. Even on the busiest day at the beach on a normal year, and there were tons of people at the beach, there is so much open space that no one was ever, ever elbow to elbow with another unless they were in the same group.

I just came back from the beach a few hours ago, lots of people, and everyone respect and keep distance, way more than 6 feet. You can NOT tell accurate distances from looking at pictures or videos.

You have a HIGHER risk of getting the virus at your local market check out line than walking at the beach.

At the check out line, you're 6 feet away, at the beach, you are usually at least 10-20 feet or more away from the next person. Also, at the market, things you touch and put down were mostly likely been touched by others before you, then others will touch those same items after you. Nothing like that happens at the beach.

Let's compare the number of people per CUBIC feet, inside the market vs. open space at the beach, there is NO comparison since the sky is the limit vs. the ceiling at the market.

How about the recycled air inside the market vs. the clean open sea air? Again, no comparison.

At the beach:
--you get constant salty sea breezes that clean the air you breath.
--the dry hot sand kills bacteria and viruses in minutes
--the extremely salty water also kills bacteria and viruses
--the UV rays of the sun will also kill bacteria and viruses

So what I can see and observe, the chance of getting the virus at the beach is practically zero.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
I agree with you, polarbear. The beaches (and parks) should never have been closed in the first place. Now that people have been cooped up inside for months, they are like wild animals. When the "public health experts" or whoever told respective governors and mayors to close parks and beaches, I knew they had not thought through their decisions and had not considered that keeping people inside with recycled air was detrimental. Many mistakes have been made. Keeping people indoors when sunlight is the best disinfectant - and sea water is cleansing - is about the stupidest knee jerk reaction so far.
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It’s safe to go a beach. Even one that is crowded. I live 10 minutes from the beach. Don’t let the media fool you. They’re purposely showing angles that make it look everyone is close together when they aren’t.

At this point it’s time to stop the shaming. If you are afraid of the virus, it’s ok to continue to stay home in isolation.

if you are high risk, it’s ok to stay home in isolation. likewise, it’s ok to venture out and get a taste of this “new normal”.

If your city/county has been under SIP orders for the last 2 months and you are OVER IT and ready to start living with the virus instead of in fear of it, that’s ok!

This virus isn’t going anyway. We are YEARS away from having a vaccine & seeing the results of it. This “stay home” lifestyle isn’t sustainable and there are many things we can do safely like play golf, hike or go to the beach.

There is really no reason for the young & the healthy to stop living. I’ll say it again—I am not staying home and putting my life on hold so people who have lived twice as long as me, can stay alive a few more years. Selfish are the folks demanding we all stay home while they simultaneously are able to stay home because they’ve passed on the risk to essential workers! Selfish are the people demanding we all stay home, while their income and livelihood hasn’t been affected. 35+ million unemployed all over a virus with a 98% survival rate. People MUST get back to work.

Suicides are up 300%. Would be nice if the media sensationalized the hell out of that instead of “crowded beaches”.
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NYDaughterInLaw May 2020
Amen, worriedinCali!!!
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Great post on both sides. I believe we have two extremes going on. Those who say the heck with it and do whatever we want, and those who want to stay in their bedrooms until a vaccine is developed

There has to be a middle way. Resuming life, but taking precautions like distancing, masks, et al.
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NewYork, Well, I AM very happy to live here in the "sticks" in a state with a smaller population and easier restrictions. Unfortunately, many people from cities are moving here now to get away from it all, and the demographics are changing. They won't be allowed to ruin the conservative/western character of the state, though, as they haven't in several other states near us, but most of us find many of them very hard to talk to; they'll have to make friends with each other. I can say this because 23 years ago WE came here from Colorado, and that's how it was; quite a few others gave up and left, we are still here, partly because it IS safer here, and partly because we have common values.
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Mally, Hope you get your wish. But things change. I moved to a small rural beach in NC in 1970. It had 378 year round residents. Two small Protestant churches. Stayed that way for several years, but then Boom it was discovered by folks from NY and NJ. By 1984 the population was 68,000. All local government offices were held by the new residents. Instead of soft southern drawls, it was pure NY and NJ accents. It’s still that way today. There are three Catholic Churches, a mosque and a large Jewish congregation. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of the changes. It’s more liberal, a more inclusive population and it’s just the way things turn out sometimes. We wanted a cooler climate and moved to northern Maine in 1984. It’s changed too since 1984. More and more people from away. More and more changes. None of them necessarily bad, just change. It happens and you can’t stop it.
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mally1 Jun 2020
Rats....
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With everything we now know about the transmission & fatality rate I sincerely ask how could you be “for” all these Draconian rules that should be reserved for A legitimately fatal disease? This flu with a 99 % recovery rate is not it! These lockdowns & rules were justified in the 1st 2 weeks have morphed into a control & obedience situation which has NOTHING to do with protection of people’s health- please do your research on what “contact tracing “ really is before you give yourself in to it... Yes many people are being affected & terrorized by the mainstream media because their job is to create a climate of fear & control. Even deaths from Cancer & heart attacks & people who Are in hospice are being “counted “ as corona virus in order to increase the amount. My neighbor is a nurse in Los Angeles- works full time & relays that for weeks now there are virtually NO deaths from Corona at all!! Mayors are holding people hostage for payouts & it’s time to say enough is enough. Please seek alternative news sources it will save you a lot of stress & anxiety and bring all these “rules “ into perspective for you. My 95 year old grandmother was cautious during the initial 2 weeks but now knows how much exaggeration is taking place & does not worry anymore. She is against most of these ridiculous rules & says that the “contact tracing” agenda reminds her of Nazi Germanys travesties.....The only rational & realistic option at this point is to develop herd immunity which will lead to this virus’ demise. Please do not ignore your God given common sense . Take care:)
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worriedinCali May 2020
The NY Times put out a list of 1000 people who died from COVID-19 as some sort of tribute. It is no surprise that some of the people named actually died in CAR CRASHES!
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"...now we just need to build an economic recovery." I used to feel optimistic that we could do it. I remember feeling like Americans are good at reinventing ourselves and our communities. I've lost almost all hope. So many people and communities have been left behind since the last "recovery" and are devastated.

40 million Americans are now unemployed. Most of their jobs are not coming back anytime soon or at all. Many are making more money on unemployment than they were working.

The problems seem insurmountable, especially because each of the 50 states is going to take a different approach to economic recovery. It's going to be a mess. At this point, I don't even know where to start to build an economic recovery. Perhaps more people need to become freelancers. Others will need to go to a trade school and learn hard skills. The next wave of unemployment is going to hit middle managers. I hope they've been saving for a rainy day because it's hurricane season.

This is the greatest tragedy to befall America since the Great Depression. And I don't believe that after so many decades of having the rich getting richer and poor getting poor that Americans are as resilient as those who came out of the Great Depression.
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GingerMay May 2020
I agree. When we got past the first few weeks of "flattening the curve" and it became each governor's goal to eliminate the virus without any vaccine I believe they drove us down a road we cannot come back from. In my state several retail stores have "out of business" signs and will not come back. Huge malls are empty. Restaurants leave messages saying the are permanently closed. It is a ghost town. Our leaders have not just pushed emotional and mental turmoil on us, but have taken away our lifestyle and basic economy. I do not know how the brain-trust of this country came up with this. It is staggering.
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