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Our son goes off to University tomorrow for the first time - my husband and I will have to get used to being “empty-nesters” as he is our only child. My mother lives with us and has always tried to get me to be the “parent “ to her, with various demands in order to get me to take the burden of anything she doesn’t want to do for herself. From my various posts over this year regular forum readers will know that my mother is a very selfish person. For many years I’ve been working on dealing with this and have got to the stage where we’ve been able to set a number of boundaries to ensure she doesn’t overwhelm me, and that she takes responsibility for her own personal needs and wants. I think I’m content that we have a situation that works for us reasonably well. I’m now concerned though that with our son gone, she will assume that the time I spent caring for our son will be time freed up that can now be spent on looking after her, rather than me and my husband having some time to ourselves to adjust to and enjoy this next phase in our lives, whilst still supporting our son from a distance. I would be grateful for any advice that my dear forum friends could offer me so that I can set out the way things are going to be, rather than get sucked into unnecessary additional care giving.

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Im going to play devil's advocate here. Might help or not. Im wondering if the aging parent might be acting out to get attention/any attention good or bad, bc they feel like you, husband, son have each other, and she is just there at the fringes? An extra, sitting around that has no one. You have each other, so acting out gets her attention/caring. Something. Crumbs. Maybe, maybe not.
I also know kids who go to college sometimes hate dorm roommates and will be back lol. And also between semesters. They are not gone for good.

Perhaps you can choose wed nites to have a nice dinner with mom. Discuss menu pre meal, where to eat, a game, an old TMC movie she likes, or a shopping trip to show her that new craft store etc. so its special time visiting with her. She feels special, part of the family, included, not just tolerated. Or a movie nite with the oldies. films from 1930s-50s you have never seen, but she remembers, or her favorite actor.
Then friday. Or sat nite are date nites. Mom not invited. But you will set her up with dinner/movie at home. Or bring something back. That way she feels included, not like a 5th wheel at home. Not just on the fringes. It might work or not. Maybe the me, me, me will calm down a bit. A child that is not paid attention to will act out to get attention. Even if its negative. Especially when your busy, is when they act up. You get mad. They feel neglected, they do it again and you get angry again, and cycle is born. Im wondering if she is doing that? I dont know Im not there.
Maybe that will calm things down a bit. If she feels included in the family. Not just on the fringes of the family?
We take in parents and they are tolerated, but not really part of the family but a situation that must be dealt with. Something seperate that needs fixing. They probably pick up on that. Probably feel resentful, jealous, ignored, or act out to feel included, loved, cared for, paid attention to. Even for a few mins. Not just here's lunch, go watch your programs. Problem solved for a few hrs.
Perhaps looking at it with a different angle may help? Here's hoping your stress level goes down.
I had my dad for awhile. He was driving me insane with the loud tv, and taking over family rm 24/7. He thought I'd cater to him and he wouldn't have to move an inch.
I made him have meals at table with discussions. Talk about old times/anything. Pick his brain about the olden days/his childhood etc. Got him having enjoyable conversations, and the meals enjoyable too. Defused the situation until it was much more bearable. He became family and wasn't a problem that I had to grin and bear, so much. Good luck.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thank you Jasmina, for your well thought out and considerate response to my question. You have such a lot of good ideas to improve the mother-daughter relationship. I could pick these off, one at a time, and explain why they may or may not work with mum: she doesn’t want to eat out in the evenings, or at all, she doesn’t do crafts or hobbies, she doesn’t want to do new things, she just wants to do her own thing, her way, etc. Or I could just be honest and say I don’t want to do any of these things with her - I just don’t picture us ever doing anything like this together. We don’t have a mother-daughter relationship, and sadly never have had. I have always had to be the parent to my mother all of her life, and I’m just very tired of it. If I start to suggest doing something together there will suddenly be an avalanche of demands : you know the phrase “give some people an inch and they’ll take a mile”? I do agree with you though that she may well feel like a spare part in the house now that there are just the three of us. I’ve suggested she takes up a home-based hobby to get through the “Covid winter“ but she just laughed at me. She is safe, warm, has plenty of food, TV, films, everything really but it’s still not enough unless I’m running around after her 24/7, which I’m not going to do. Thank you for your help though, it is much appreciated. I think I’m coping reasonably well at the moment, by keeping busy and starting some small new hobbies of my own.
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Thank you to everyone who has offered advice. I really appreciate it, I feel it has empowered me, and I shall work on many of the suggestions and techniques given. Dropping son off at Uni wasn't quite how we planned. Stormy weather throughout the night caused our house electrics to fail so we were up for much of the night dealing with this, then had breakfast by torch light and set off for uni in darkness. After dropping him off, we came home to find an upstairs window had leaked and we had water coming through the ceiling. Spending the last few days sorting all of this out has meant there's been no time to miss son nor to deal with mum's unnecessary demands!! Every cloud has a silver lining!
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"No" is a complete sentence. "I am sorry, I can't do that" is another one. If you need professional help to say those things, start finding one now. You can only be a doormat if you lay down.
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You made an interesting statement about your mom: "and that she takes responsibility for her own personal needs and wants."

I feel this applies to you, perhaps as well.
It sounds like you are unable to set boundaries with your mother and fearful of her? What is going on with this family dynamic from your point of view?

Selfish, ego-centered people are used to manipulating others to get their needs met. You MUST [learn how to] take responsibility for how you respond to her, if you want quality time with your husband (as you say here).

Your question here isn't so much about your mother; it is about you.

You may need to ask yourself why you fear your mom('s response) - what is triggering you?

* Tell her how you feel.
* Tell her what you will and what you won't do.
* Tell her that you are spending more quality time with your husband. Period. End of sentence. DO NOT EXPLAIN or go on an on. This is what a person does when they feel insecure and fearful (explain).
* State your desire to care for her as you've been doing (?) and that you are also spending quality time with your husband. Then, (perhaps) give her a hug and walk away.
* Engaging in her responses may cause an argument as she will want to get her way and I imagine she is used to getting her way (with you ... otherwise you would not have asked 'us' the question you posed).
* Consider outings you want to have with your husband and let your mom know.
* Do not engage in arguing.
* If needed, check out possible care (providers / options) before you talk to her so you can have some possibilities available if she starts saying how much she needs you to do xxx.
* If you feel uneasy / scared / deal with your feelings and figure out what you need to do to stick up for yourself and the life you have and want with your husband. You ARE entitled to enjoy YOUR life and enjoy YOUR husband. ... not to mention that your husband is entitled to enjoy YOU, too.
* Role play first if you feel it might help you or see a therapist.
* If she says anything negative or pushes for you/r support, do REFLECTIVE LISTENING - state back to her "I hear that you are saying . . . and that is the end of it. You do not respond to what she is saying, you let her know you are listening and that you validate her feelings, from her point of view. If you need to sit there and look into her eyes (quiet, no talking), see COMPASSION.
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You just tell her no. I don’t understand people that don’t stand up to their bully, spoiled parents. I’m so glad my mother wasn’t like that. She sounds like a narcissist and should be handle firmly. As long as she can walk, tell her she needs to get up and do it herself.
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TouchMatters Oct 2020
These are life-long dysfunctional relationships / aspects that needed to be worked through and out weren't. Adult children are now dealing with how they feel about their self, and their parent(s) since these feelings / traumas were not dealt with earlier in life. If not dealt with / healed, they are always there, lurking in the dark just waiting to come out.

While this sounds very gruesome, IT IS also an opportunity for a person (adult child) to rewrite their life story from now on and moving forward. It takes self reflection, introspection, and determination. There is a degree (if not a lot) of resentment, fear, anger pushed down for likely decades and coming to the surface now when a parent needs help. Uncovering / feeling all this is hard and often painful since the dynamics have been going on for so long. Now, in many ways, the roles are reversed, with the parent losing independence, cognitive functioning and in fear. The elder parent will lash out to the only people that are there, and they are usually the adult children. In the elder's mind, they likely believe they are doing what they always have done, considering the cognitive functioning is diminished.
As you say "narcissist,' you then realize this isn't about a 'spoiled parent.' It is a mental health disorder that has been affecting all the family relationships - for decades, if not a lifetime.
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Imho, tell your mother that you have a volunteer job helping others on this forum. Her needs do not increase. Prayers sent.
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I don't know all the situation as you stated you have been on here before, but I would just let her know that nothing has changed. In fact, now maybe you and hubby can have a little down time but that you still will be checking in on the son periodically and handling some things that might need attention to the University side of things.  IF she is not totally incompetent, then there would be no need for her to expect that now you can "drop everything" and be her slave.  Tell her the boundaries are still in place and that if she truly needs that much help, maybe moving to an assisted living place would be better suited for her so she has other people to interact with, etc.  wishing you luck.
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Just remember that whatever you start doing for her will become your daily duties. Assuming the only thing changing in your house is number of people and not her ability to carry on as she did when your son was in the house, she can continue to care for herself as she has always done.

Actually, there shouldn't have to be a big conversation about this. If she tells you to do something, just reply with you've always done that for yourself. Trust me, you'll know when there comes a time she really can't do a certain task anymore.

I think you'll find that as empty nesters, your life and activities probably won't change that much. Son has to be 18 years old, so it wasn't like you were caring for an infant. If mom needed a sitter while you/hubby out of the house and son fulfilled that role, then find someone else to hire for those kinds of outings and continue on.
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Spend the time you used to dedicate to rugby trips to travel with your husband.
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Keep boundaries and stay busy. If she sees you at home relaxing she will think you "need something to do" (as my father would say-and he seriously thought he was doing me a favor by creating work for me to do).

It may come to a point where you will just have to bluntly tell her the time you spent on son is not transferring to her, it is transferring to you.
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Continue to keep your safe boundaries. Remind yourself - and mom when need be - that your relationship and time commitments may have changed with your son but that does not mean that your time and relationship changes with your mother. Make sure your mother's needs are being met - preferably through self-care. Hire extra help or provide extra help when it is definitely needed (so she is not at health risk or physical risk). Encourage her to continue working on her fulfilling her own needs, just as you are doing in this new phase of life.

Congratulations on your son's entry into college. Enjoy time as a couple.
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Get a part time job. Or, better yet, tell your mother you've gotten a part time job working from home that will take up the following hours every day: 10 am - 2 pm (or whatever suits you) and that you will be unavailable to her entirely during those hours. Sometimes your job will require you to leave the house to have 'meetings', too, so she will have to acclimate herself to that fact as well.

Oftentimes, actions speak MUCH louder than words. I can talk until I'm blue in the face with my own mother, but it's only my actions she understands. For instance; she 'needs' so so so many things from the store, but refuses to make me a list (she lives in a Memory Care ALF). So, until and unless I get a list, she doesn't get anything. She knows that, yet still refuses to sit down with pen and paper or an aide to write a list FOR her. That's one small example of actions speaking louder than words.

Good luck!
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NeedHelpWithMom Oct 2020
Wonderful idea!

Lea, You are very creative! Imaginary part time job is brilliant! I don’t guess that she could stretch that by saying the job asked her to work extra hours too! Hahaha 😆
That might be pushing in a little.

I like the way you think. It shows you’ve been dealing with stuff a long time! So many of us have mom’s in our 90’s that have outlived our dads by many years.
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I suppose you have to just wait and see. Maybe your mom will not become more demanding when your son leaves the house. If she does remind her of the boundaries that you've set in the home. Tell her that if she's losing more independence and becomes more reliant on you then she will have to go to into a senior living community because you cannot meet her needs if they increase.
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I read your reply to Grandma. Yes, until rugby can be played again, you need some interests to take that time up. If Mom is capable to stay on her own, then go off and enjoy yourself. If Moms says anything, just say you and hubby are enjoying your empty nest. Got to keep him happy. Because...he is your primary concern. If Mom wants more from you, tell her maybe time for her to find a nice independent living or AL. (if she can afford it) Because now that son is on his own, you and husband plan on doing more together.
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Boundaries should remain as they are; express often how pleased you are that your Son can now move on with his own life, and you with YOURS. Be certain to do so, with more time away from home, etc. With clear set boundaries. If she cannot stay within them then it is perhaps time for her to move on as well to living in care in another place.
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Your son is leaving for COLLEGE how much time did you spend caring for him? I could understand time you spent caring for him if he was leaving for Kindergarten or even First grade but college!
Take up a hobby or start Volunteer work and spend as much time doing that as you did caring for your son.
Start taking a few day trips to a park, museum, go sit in the library or the local coffee shop.
Continue to say no and keep the boundaries that you currently have.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
He played County Rugby so we spent most weekends driving around the country to various matches and festivals. We are all rugby mad and had hoped to enjoy this as a couple now son has gone, but sadly spectators are not allowed at sports venues in the uk at the moment. I totally agree with the need to take up new hobbies and activities though and am starting off with a round of house decorating, starting tomorrow!!
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Learn to say NO. When she says “Why Not?” Answer her back by saying” Because I said so!”

Thats what my mother would tell me as a child. Since you are in a role reversal with your mom and she is acting like a child and YOU acting like her parent, just say NO. Loud and clear.
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NeedHelpWithMom Oct 2020
You said that so well, Elaine! I love your spunk! 💕
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I’d suggest that you start with an up-beat conversation with your mother about how excited you are that son is moving on with his life and you and your husband will have time for some of the many things you have had to postpone. Agree a list with your husband (you don’t necessarily have to take up all of them) of new exciting things you are planning to do. Your conversation might even get her involved in your enthusiasms and making more suggestions. Then when and if she tries new demands, you say that you haven’t got time, you’re off to start your course or club or excursion as planned. It comes across more positively to her and to you than ‘no, do it yourself’!
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thanks Margaret, I agree a positive spin is a good approach and keeps things more upbeat. I've found this has worked well in the past, but obviously sometimes you are just so tired or fed up that it comes out wrong. Still, we can't be perfect all of the time!
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First of all your mother is fortunate to be living in your home and should absolutely respect your wishes and privacy. Set limits and boundaries with your mom. You and your husband should have some quality time alone together now son is off to college. Plan to have alone time with your husband such as a trip somewhere and hire someone to stay with her. Have an honest to goodness talk with your mother and explain your concerns and desires. It is very important early on to have some privacy, and take care of yourself and set limits, otherwise health could become an issue. I at the very beginning of my caregiving journey with my mom explained to her I would be available in the morning at 9am, my mother was an early riser around 6am, I myself not a morning person at all. It worked out very well for both of us and she stuck to the plan for almost twenty years. Of course things have changed over the years and we needed to adjust our way of doing things to fit the changes that have taken place especially the caregiving duties. I hired a cleaning lady to do the housework. Hired a lawn company and a plow guy. Once I got used to all the responsibility of house, caregiving, bills, shopping and much more, hired help, the expense, I adjusted better. I had a plan in place and I stick to it. I stopped inviting relatives over for tea, lunch, parties, it made my life better and less hectic. I did that for my mother for almost 15 years. It just became more stressful as my mothers health started to decline. I now do what I need to do and set limits with my entire family, I love them, but they depended on me a little too much and now they all know my priorities and they respect them and think twice now before asking me to do something. It took me years to say no to people, but boy does it feel good to say no and not feel a bit guilty. I hope your son enjoys his college years, it is difficult at first, but you will get used to it and adjust. We visited my niece frequently when she went off to college. We brought her up after losing her mother to cancer. There are other options in the future if it gets too stressful for you. For example, hiring a home health aide, adult day care if open and safe and Assisted Living. You need to find the best fit for both you and your mother for everyone to be happy and content. It is a long journey and some resentment early on is a red flag to me. No need to feel guilty, caregiving is not for everyone. My dear mother will be the last person I care for. I told everyone in my family to plan for their own future. Wishing the best to you and your family.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thanks EarlyBird. I agree boundaries, personal space and also time together as a couple are so important, so I'm working on how these are changing as our son leaves home. I already have a well organised schedule of taking care of the home, the finances, the housekeeping, garden etc and everything else home related, and as you've illustrated in your response it all takes up time. I'm going to be clear about getting the balance right between all of these obligations whilst still factoring in me-time, for my own health and sanity. My mother's basic needs are taken care of, and I have recently told her that I cannot provide any more personal care than I already give, in response to a needy episode a few weeks ago.
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Your profile says you suspect your mother has Narcissistic personality disorder. If that's true, all your best efforts to live in peace and harmony won't help much. I've dealt with a few people like that, one in the family and imo, they derive joy from the pain of others. They can't stand for others to be happy, so, their joy is creating drama, conflict and exerting CONTROL over others. Disregard this, if your mother is not that way.

You say you've been in therapy. I'd discuss it with your therapist and explore how you can make your life happy with a person in the home who you must work on each day to keep at bay. I'd ask if she could change if she wants to and how getting older or getting cognitive decline affects this condition.

It's great you care for your mother, but, I'd consider you and your husband's happiness too. I hope you find the answers you need.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thanks SunnyGirl. I'd been thinking about having a little more therapy but the idea had been swept aside with the Covid situation and also because I've been so busy over the past month or so with Uni preparation. I'm going to contact my therapist on Monday, so thanks for prompting me to do this! Sadly my mother is one of those people who doesn't like to see me enjoy myself if she isn't involved too. It's harder to deal with this when the person lives with you, but I tend to walk away if any "spoiling" words or behaviours look like they are about to happen. As an example, I took my son out for brunch a month ago as he just split with his girlfriend and needed some support and a change of scene. As soon as we came home, mum's self pity and sulking started as she'd been "left at home" while I'd been out "enjoying myself " - hardly! I was really upset for both son and girlfriend, as I really liked her, and I wouldn't say our brunch was an enjoyable occasion, just a sad necessity. Thanks for your insight, much appreciated!
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Things haven't changed for Mom. They have changed for you. You now have more time to do what you and DH would like to do. Don't feel that Mom has to go with you everywhere. You are entitled to us/me time. If she can be left alone for a time, then do something for yourself and husband. Have a date night. Out to lunch/dinner with friends.

There was a thread were a member wondered if she was enabling her Mom by doing for her. A member came back and said no you are disabling her. If she can do it herself, then Mom should do it. Our responsibility to our parents is not to be at their beck and call but to make sure they are safe and cared for. You have given Mom a nice home to live in. You make sure she is fed well. She is safe, clean and warm in the winter and cool in the Summer. There is no reason she can't do for herself. So, keep those boundries and do for yourself. I may even go on vacation and find someone to check on Mom or stay with her.

And I believe with certain personalities you have to put a little threat in things and some reminders. Seems Mom maybe living with you because she could not afford to live on her own. When she starts I'm for telling her "Mom, where do u think you would be if I hadn't allowed you to live with us?" And "If you don't like living with us anymore, we can make other arrangements".
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thank you JoAnn. I do agree with you that I've provided for my mother such that she is safe in all aspects in our home, and I have always said this to myself when evaluating how much more care to give. Also, that in not agreeing to all of her demands I'm trying to help her keep her independence for longer, with a little easy cooking, washing, cleaning herself etc. I am certain that if she wasn't living with us and had been in her own home, she would have been at the stage of needing to go into residential care before now. She would never see this, but I would point this out to her if she gets to the stage where residential care is needed. The trick with my mother is working out what is a real "need" and what is just a "want". I'm getting better at this!
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Chris, your time is your own, to spend the way you see fit.

It is not your mother's commodity to direct.

Just because you will now have more "free time" does not make your mother's demands valid.

I would start by taking my own sweet time getting back from drop son off at Uni. Get someone to look in on mom once a day if that's the level of care she needs. Or hire someone (on her dime) to stay with her while you are gone.

Practise saying "no, mother, I can't possibly do that". And you DON'T need to have "reason" for that. You simply can't do it. If she asks, you say, "because I don't WANT to and you can do it for yourself".

You are not a slave, nor a lowly Victorian housemaid with no other hopes and aspirations in life.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thank you Barb for your great insight, as always! My husband and I had great plans of what we wanted to do as empty nesters. Whilst some of these are not currently possible or easy due to Covid restrictions, we have a healthy and interesting mix of other projects and activities we are looking forward to starting instead. You are very right in stating that my time is my own, but sometimes it needs to be pointed out to you, to be reminded of this when the demands start rolling in. I don't know how we shall feel tomorrow after dropping our son off, but it is our time then to do what we need to do, for ourselves, to deal with this transition in our lives.
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Are you comfortable smiling and saying, “No Mom, I can’t do that”?

Variations - “No Mom, I don’t have time right now”. “No Mom, I’m doing (.............) right now”. “Your (comb, soap, glasses, newspaper, can opener, etc etc etc) is right here Mom. You can do (whatever) while I (do whatever)”.

Practice leaving the area so you’re not giving her an audience when she starts to complain.

Your life needs a balance that works for you, and you will hopefully have a comfort level for seizing what you need for yourself and your husband.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Ann, thank you. I agree it's very helpful to practice some stock phrases to use in response to demands. I feel these can help you to respond in a non emotional way, and so avoid any feelings of guilt or other unease. I will add your suggested phrases to my own repertoire!
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tell her upfront that things fir her will be exactly as they were or maybe even less since your son is no longer there to help with whatever chores he had to do before he left for College.
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thank you Bev. I hadn't thought of the fact that my son won't be running around for her, good point!
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I had the same situation as you. When our youngest daughter left for college we were left alone with my mom.

Keep those boundaries in place! Your behavior is what is most important now. Your mom will take her cues from you. So stick to your ground rules. If things get too difficult look for other living arrangements for her.

I was slow in setting boundaries and that hurt me tremendously. Mom no longer lives here. She was her for 15 years. It’s hard. I can empathize with you.

Best wishes to you and your family. Congrats to your son for starting on this new and exciting chapter. I know that you are proud of him!
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Chriscat83 Oct 2020
Thank you NeedHelp. I think I too was slow in setting boundaries originally. I had to work all of this out for myself, and only discovered self help books and this forum after I had struggled for years trying to work out what was going on. It's reassuring to hear and read that the general advice to deal with this is pretty much what I'd finally come up with myself. I suppose I don't want to throw away and lose years of progress just because our circumstances are changing, and I lose sight of the ongoing need for boundaries. Thanks for your help and support.
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