Can grandchildren have POA over children?

I am sorry that you and your sister are having to deal with this.

Your grandmother, if she is "of sound mind", meaning that she knows what she is doing and isn't coerced, can appoint ANYONE power of attorney over her financial and/or medical affairs. She will have to appear, at the very least, depending upon the laws in your state, before a notary, who will ascertain her mental acuity, and there will need to be witnesses who will never benefit from any decisions made by the power of attorney. Friends and neighbors come to mind.

If it can be proven that you or your sister swayed her mind, it can be challenged.

I don't think having POA means your aunt can kick your grandmother out of her bedroom into another one, but think about it for a minute, all emotion aside. Would the other bedroom be a better fit for grandmother? Or, did I misread and you meant kick your sister out of her bedroom? If the aunt moves in, if I was your sister, I'd move out anyway. It wouldn't be an easy situation to live in.

It isn't easy to have someone declared mentally incompetent, so that might just be an empty threat, made in the heat of the argument.

After things cool down, the aunts may do nothing and all will be okay. Fingers crossed.

Txcamper, there are a lot of factors behind my aunts rage. She is being kicked out of her current home and has less than a month to move. So she is trying to use my grandmothers episodes as excuses to move in "rent free"! Not because she has my grandmothers best interest at heart. She wants to kick my sister out of her room just because it's the bigger room and she wants it. She is being nasty just to be nasty and upsetting my grandmother in the process. My aunts are very mean to her and my grandmother has made it very clear she doesn't want my aunt living with her because they treat her like she is incompetent which she clearly isn't . She went to see a neurologist last week and both my aunts took her. They were both furious when they returned because the doctor said my grandmother was perfectly fine. She was just stressed(in my opinion because of my aunts). He said she didn't show any signs of early dimentia or Alzheimer's. They are both just being horrible because they are in financial burden and want my grandmother out so that can sell her house and get their share! With my aunt having POA is that only effective if she is incapable of making her own decisions or can she have her put in a nursing home whenever she wants?

Okay, I'm getting back on my hobby horse with this.

First of all, though, Txc is quite right about what your grandmother can do: provided she is mentally competent she can annul any existing POA and appoint anyone else she pleases. The burden of proof of her incapacity would be on your aunt: that is to say, to enforce her POA, your aunt would have to get qualified professionals to certify that your grandmother is no longer of sound mind. She's not going to get that to happen if your grandmother is mentally fine except for brief periods when her mind is on other things.

Back to the hobby horse - it's where you say "Her reasoning is she has power of attorney over my grandmother…" etc.

I would like this engraved on the heart of anyone who agrees to act with power of attorney: the power you exercise is NOT over the person who gave it to you, it is on behalf of that person. You act for them. You make decisions for them. You serve them. They have given you the power to act on their behalf, in their best interests. They have not given you power "over" them.

I'm going to say this, too. Neither your sister nor your aunt is acting in your grandmother's best interest by having a childish spat about whose bedroom it was first or who has lived there longer or who loves your grandmother best. This is ridiculous: you've pointed out that either or both of them could easily be accommodated in the home, yes? So knock their heads together and tell them to cut it out - your grandmother can't need this kind of thing going on in her house.

Typically the document itself lists the exact powers that the agent will be given. You would need to see that document to know exactly what you are dealing with. However, if Grandmother is of sound mind, she can revoke the POA and reassign it to someone else. POA, as I understand it, cannot force your grandmother to live anywhere and cannot limit who visits her wherever she lives. That it is just to act on her behalf in things like paying bills, buying/selling property, for medical POA, it would be doctors and medicines and such. People throw around "POA" like it's ownership, but it's not. Contact your Area on Aging office for some advice. Every county has one.

Jennifer, I'm responding only to your very last question; the other issues are still gelling in my mind.

It seems to me that your aunts are creating a form of elder abuse, and I'm wondering if APS would get involved to prevent their contact and harassment?

I'm assuming your grandmother has a copy of her DPOA; ask to read it and see if it does require a determination of incompetency for the aunt to act. Or is she trying to act as proxy under a Living Will, or Health Care Proxy?

Given that the neurologist deemed your grandmother of sound mind, I would suggest that GM immediately consider revoking the DPOA and appointing a different proxy. I would also ask the neurologist for an opinion to that effect jut so you have it on hand in the event the aunt goes off further in her vendetta.

The name of the law firm or attorney who prepared the DPOA should be on the vertical side line of the pleading paper; contact them ASAP.

If your aunt tried to put your GM in a nursing home, there would be the issue of who would pay for it, including prior to any sale of the house. I would raise that issue if you decide to call APS, as essentially that would force someone deemed capable of handling her own affairs into a facility which she apparently doesn't need and compromise her financial stability.

I think you should also raise the aunt issue with the attorney who prepared the DPOA and ask for further advice, as it does seem as though the aunt is on a vendetta. It might be considered that your GM should apply for a PPO to prevent any further harassment.

For some reason I keep visualizing that movie with Bette Midler, smirking through false buck teeth, and 2 (?) other women as 3 witches, maliciously stirring a broth of who knows what while they plot nefarious activities.

Thank you countrymouse.

My sister and aunt are both being childish about the living situation. My aunt just isn't being reasonable about it . She wants all or nothing. She wants to take my grandmother back to the doctor and have her dosage of medication raised so that she will be all drugged up and won't have to deal with her. Her reasoning is she needs to care for "her mother" but she had a full time job and doesn't plan to quit. She will only be there in the evening and really doesn't care for her all she does is yell at her and talk to her like she is a child. She was appointed power of attorney after my grandfather passed 10 years ago. My father is a push over and has never said anything. But in this situation has stepped in and now wants POA and my aunts furious.

1. Power of Attorney does not grant someone authority to determine where the principle lives or who visits them or other personal matters.
2. Power of Attorney can be changed at any time by someone of sound mind. (Why did Gram ever appoint these witches in the first place?)
3. If the house is sold, all of the money must go to Gram's care. Why would the aunts think they'd get some it? Are they co-owners?
4. Even if Gram wanted Sis out of her house, she'd have to go through an eviction process. She certainly doesn't have to move on Aunt's say-so, POA or not.
5. Get an attorney involved.

Do I have a legal right to request to see the POA letter and to see her will? Can I contact the attorney?

Yes. They can do that unless their mom steps up. She probably won't. Tell your sister to get out of that house. She has no right to be there. You have absolutely no right to see her will. Lordy.

Maggiemarshall they can do what? Why should my sister get out of the house? Why doesn't she have the right to be there? She has lived there for over 3 years and has taken care of my grandmother all this time. I have already seen her will. I'm just trying to do what's best for my grandmother.

Unless your sister owns the house, UNLESS gram steps in, your sister is on quicksand. Period. Sorry, that's the facts. Gram's POA speaks for her. Unless gram speaks differently. Period.

Well Grams owns the house not my aunt. She is still capable of making decisions. Aunt has power of attorney if grams is incapable of making her own decisions. If my aunt wanted her out I'm pretty sure there would have to be a legal process since it is her legal residence and had been for the last 3 years.

I think your Gram needs to revoke her POA and rewrite it in favor of someone who will act in her best interests. FWIW, you actually don't know what rights the POA gives the agent, or under what circumstances, unless you see it. A POA can be written to lapse if the principal becomes incompetent, or to only take effect if the principal becomes incompetent. It can limit the powers in any way the principal chooses. Most of the ones I've seen do allow the agent to bring legal actions to protect the principal's property. I believe the aunts would have to use that power to evict your sister - they can't just throw her out.

To answer your original question, yes, if your Gram chooses someone else, it doesn't matter that the current POA is a generation closer, or older.

I don't agree that your sister should move out. She seems to be taking care of your grandmother and it sounds like your aunts don't really want to. It sounds like the aunts don't want to act on your grandmother's behalf but on their own behalf. They should be removed from the POA ASAP.

If your aunt has changed her address with the Secretary of State to be that of your grandmother's residence, yes I believe she would have to be evicted. I learned that's the situation in Michigan. It's doesn't make sense, but apparently that's the law.

It's really sad that there's so much friction when an older person has enough to deal with already.

No she hasn't she hasn't even moved in yet. She is making threats cause she wants to move in but wants the bigger room that my sister has been living in for over 3 years. Keep in mind not giving my sister any time to pack her things she just wants her out because she said so because she has the right because she has medical power of attorney over grandma

See my response under your other, similar post.

Jennifer, assuming the principles are broadly the same in your state:

1. Nobody has a right to see your grandmother's will until - may she live forever - she passes away, at which point it becomes a public document that anybody may ask to see. Your grandmother may choose to show it to whomever she pleases, but as long as she lives nobody has any business demanding to see it.

2. The POA document is a different thing altogether. The general process with any sort of enduring, durable or lasting power of attorney - i.e. the kind that comes into force once the person giving that power has lost the capacity to act on his or her own - is that a) the person, while fit and well, draws up the documentation which then sits tight in a drawer somewhere; b) once the person begins to become mentally frail, the POA must then be registered with a court or other supervising authority; c) the person can then no longer act on his own except in restricted, highly scrutinised circumstances, but his wishes as far as he can express them must still be taken into account by his POA.

3. It would be standard practice in drawing up the documentation to include a list of "people to be told" (e.g. siblings, children and sometimes grandchildren, but also close friends or trusted advisors) at point B: that is, as part of the registration process, there will normally be a period during which the nominated people must be informed of it, may request sight of the relevant documents, and will have the opportunity to raise any caveats or objections.

At this point, in your grandmother's case, it might be a good idea to get everybody together to review the arrangements she has made and clarify the rights and responsibilities involved. If she has a lawyer she likes and trusts, perhaps the lawyer could attend too, if only to call the meeting to order.

Medical POA in itself does not give your aunt any authority at all to decide who occupies rooms in your grandmother's house - what in heaven's name has that to do with your grandmother's medical care? But is this your aunt's family home, that she lived in while she was growing up? It is easier to negotiate a compromise if you consider the points of view of all parties involved.

By the way, if your aunt has medical POA, who's taking care of the financials?

I also wonder if your aunt is moving back into your grandmother's house under some sort of protest. Does she seem to feel that she has to, and resent having to do so? If so, or you suspect so, perhaps you might suggest to your father that he have a heart-to-heart with her and your other aunt about what they both think would really be best for your grandmother going forward; because a caregiving journey that starts badly is not likely to continue well.

CM, I'm curious about some of your statements, i.e., that a POA must be registered. When we had our EP prepared, our attorney, who was a specialist in the field, and with one of the top mid-size law firms in our area, never advised us to "register" it. Nor have I found any specific advice on legal forums or articles published by other EP attorneys that this must be done.

We would also refer to such a process as recordation, generally with a county clerk. I think the terminology is similar - I'm just wondering about the process you describe.

I've also had advice from another top attorney in the field and she too never mentioned having to record a POA.

You also addressed a process by which people are informed of the POA:

"there will normally be a period during which the nominated people must be informed of it, may request sight of the relevant documents, and will have the opportunity to raise any caveats or objections."

I'm not sure if you're referring to interested parties or someone nominated to hold the proxy. If the latter, in my experience that person (or persons) must agree to accept the responsibility before the POA is executed.

In fact, we signed an acknowledgement agreeing to accept the duties as well as carry them out in accordance with the maker's wishes.

Just wanted to make sure I understood your viewpoint.

As I recall you're in the UK, or I believe someplace other than the USA? I'm thinking standards and requirements might be different there?

GA, you're right, I am in the UK and it can be tricky to translate or transpose the various terms and "bodies", so to speak, who deal with stuff; but I think the aims are pretty much the same all over. Here, because it's a much smaller jurisdiction, we can make do with one central organisation - rather grandly titled the Office of the Public Guardian - that takes responsibility (veeery sloooooowly) for the whole caboodle. But whether it's the county clerk, a court or whoever, the principle is the same: viz that for a POA to be put into operation, you have to *do* something with it - you can't just unilaterally and without notice to anyone suddenly decide that your mother's gone gaga and you're in charge.

The "people to be told" would be, yes, interested parties; but not necessarily interested on their own account - they could be people you trust just to keep an eye on things for you. Here you don't *have* to name any, but it's part of the process that you're prompted to think about whether you want to, and whom you might want to be given a heads-up, and it is recommended. It's a further step in the checks and balances, aimed at avoiding abuse of POA if a person has unfortunately chosen an appointee who turns out to be unworthy of that degree of trust. When my mother's Durable (called Enduring in the olden days over here, now Lasting) POA was registered, my brother and I both got letters from the OPG informing us that an application had been made and giving us six weeks to object, along with a list of reasons that would be considered valid grounds for objection which were pretty tightly defined. For example, you could object to the person being appointed if there were substantiated reasons to believe they were not fit for the task (convicted embezzler), but not just because you didn't personally think much of them ("he couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel..!"); or if you didn't agree that the person giving POA was losing capacity, as would seem to be the point with our OP here.

It was a point of some irritation to me that my mother didn't nominate a proxy, and moreover made my siblings joint POA; so that if God forbid anything had happened to either of them the whole instrument would have failed and we'd all have been right up a gum tree. Her legal advisor is someone I know very well and am fond of; but I wish she'd been a bit less polite and a lot less indulgent of my mother's sentimental impracticality. Not that I can blame her for failing to concentrate my mother's mind on the business in hand - which of us can say we ever managed that when she didn't wish her mind to be concentrated?

I skipped the bit about needing the consent of the person nominated to exercise POA because in this case there's if anything a surplus of volunteers! - but you have made me wonder idly how many people, especially loving children, actually find the gumption to say "not on your life!" when they're asked. I wish my brother had, because he clearly found the whole thing hugely burdensome and was a pain in the nether for my sister, with whom he shared it, to deal with; but I suppose it takes either a hard-nosed or an exceptionally blithe person to turn round and tell their parent they can't be doing with it and she'll have to ask someone else.

We need some sort of health warning leaflet to be required reading for all concerned. So many people seem to drift into either giving or accepting POA without fully grasping what's involved, and I'm never sure whether it's because they were given poor advice, or they weren't paying attention to perfectly good advice, or they didn't like to say no and crossed their fingers they'd never need to worry about it. Mind you, I have latterly discovered that since 2005 in the UK you actually have to put quite some effort into ignoring the warnings: although you can still arrange POA in any way you please, by far the most straightforward is to download the government's forms and fill them in; and if you do that, and follow the instructions, and run round the houses getting signatures witnessed and your GP's endorsement and all the rest of it, I'm at a loss as to how you can then cling to the belief that it's no big deal. Wouldn't each State's social services division also offer a similar service?

I did a quick check of this and it appears that, in the US, you only have to record/register a POA when it's being used to make a transfer of real property. This was the rule that popped up for some states when I did a google search. I was curious because I have POA for my mother and I wondered about the recordation/registration requirement. I'm also not sure whether there's any notice requirement. I would definitely take this to an attorney qualified in the OP's state of residence to be certain of what rules apply.

Carla, if there's a moral I think it's to do with when you're drawing up your own POA (when I say "your" I mean "one" in general, not you in particular!) - that is, when we come to do it. The sagas have made me think quite hard about who I'd ask, what instructions I'd give and what restrictions I'd put on it - but it's a really difficult balancing act. Put in too many ifs and buts and you make life impossible for the people you've trusted to help you. Too few, and you could end up in the last place you ever wanted to be with a life you can't stand - or with children who hate you and come on to AC to vent! Switzerland here I come..?

CM, thanks for the explanation. I have the impression that the UK system was developed and tweaked over a longer period of time than ours. It seems as though there are built-in "fail safe mechanisms" that we don't have.

I do remember corresponding with an English woman who loved gardening, and in the course of the correspondence she wrote that she worked in a department that provided for assistive device retrofitting. I got the impression that adding grab bars and basic things like that were done through a government social service division.

Wow, I am really shocked at the provision for objection to a POA! I immediately thought of how contentious that process could become, but as you wrote I suspect the grounds are valid and not frivolous ones.

As to refusal to act, that's an interesting query. While working for EP law firms, I do recall an instance in which a trustee declined to act after the settlor died; letters were prepared to the heirs and beneficiaries advising of the trustee's abdication. Perhaps he or she realized how contentious it could become if there were feuding siblings??

Your point of a leaflet with critical information is well taken. From the posts on this forum, it's pretty clear that there are different views on the purposes of proxies as well as the limitations. Elder law firms do publish various articles which are handed out at Area Agency on Aging Caregiving Expos, but in part that's a business solicitation tactic.

I don't have any information on whether the US State Social Services Departments get involved in POAs at all. That's an interesting question. From my experience, their focus is more on the care aspect, what organizations and resources are available, etc. They may mention the EP documents as a general recommendation to have them but I don't think they would get involved.

I'm also not sure there are any US government sources with suggested forms, although I haven't checked. And in some areas of the US the government is so suspect that I think a lot of people wouldn't consider using the forms anyway!

Carla, that's interesting - I wasn't aware of the need to record a POA on sale of real estate. The only times I've used my authority were when my father was medically unable to make decisions. It wasn't a dementia issue; it was a pulmonary issue that required an induced coma.

GA, you've reminded me of the one time I did ring the OPG with a query - I don't remember the details but I do remember the lady's closing advice which was "you just have to use your common sense, really…" Talk about a hostage to fortune!

I don't think Americans would put up with the OPG's extensive powers, not for a moment. They're not often used - you have to be seriously incompetent or actually criminal - but if you make a real hash of POA (and it comes to their attention, which is a-whole-nother story) they can boot you out and take over. And charge for it. But they're even slower to act than they are to answer the dam' phone (tap tap tap snore...)

CM, I'm laughing and chuckling as I read your comments, especially about the delays in answering phones!

I think you're right that American's wouldn't tolerate the OPG's powers. I myself would be uncomfortable, especially since over the years I've lost confidence in the government's problem solving abilities.

Given that some folks in certain areas of the US don't even want the Federal government to "meddle" in their lives, I think there would be some really strong resistance to federal involvement in medical and financial caregiving proxy issues.

Why kick out the sister? Maybe she helps the GM. Your Dad needs to get involved. Your Aunt is way out of line. She needs to be made aware of what a POA entitles her to. Not sure what can be done about her trying to move in when her Mother doesn't want it. Ur sister should not give up her room. Actually, I think she should stay there becauseif Aunts verbably abuse GM it could get worse. But again, Dad has to get involved.

My number one question is: does your grandmom want a new person to be her POA, if she does, go get a new one drawn up and notorized. Yes a grandchild can be a POA over a child. Who doesn't want the aunt to move into grandmoms house. The only one who has the authority to say yes or no is grandmom who also has the right to tell your sister to move to another room if she chooses. This is all pending upon the fact that grandmom is competent. You can have any papers signed and motorized that you want. It will be your aunts burden to prove in court that she was not competent when she signed the new documents. A very frank discussion with geandmom is in order. Good luck. P.s. Your aunt sounds like a bully.

Guess I don't understand. If GMA can "cook, clean, maintain her garden", why would anyone be living in a spare room at her house? It's sure not GMA's responsibility to provide housing to anyone at her age, (especially a Grandchild), sounds like she already raised her children. I sure won't be, nor would I want any drama in my otherwise happy home, messing the general flow of my day when I get to that age. As far as you wanting to see her will, yikes. I hate to tell you this but if she has 3 children, (they are her true heirs), you have at least one Sis, you are 4th, or 5th in line as far as any say, or any $. In this type of situation, Grandchildren usually don't get anything. Unless GMA is loaded and spelled out a specific gift amount in her will and it is actually left over at the end of the day, after many expenses that are yet to come, hopefully for many years. You and your siblings, (and cousins), will all be in position to inherit from YOUR OWN parent, someday, a Grandparent owes you nothing. If you really think there is emotional abuse happening and you want to help, all I can think of is to talk to your Father and GMA together about filing a report with APS regarding the Aunts, and take it from there. Keep bugging Dad to stand up for her, he's probably her best shot and will be taken more seriously than Grandkids, especially ones who are living in her spare room...

New2this, GMA can leave her estate, whatever it is, to whomever she pleases. It can be her three children or her grandchildren or a luxury hotel for orphaned cats. She is not required to leave her things to her "heirs" or even to family. And she is also not required to let anyone look at the will if she doesn't want to. No one has a right to insist on this.

I have no idea why one granddaughter is living in the spare room, or why a daughter thinks she should be. But there is nothing inherently wrong with either or both of them being there IF IT IS WHAT GMA WANTS.

I no I sound like an old-fashioned broken record (anyone remember those?), but if GMA is still competent, SHE is in charge of making decisions, and one decision she could make and easily execute is to make someone else POA.

Jeannegibbs, did you my post in a hurry? "Unless GMA specifically spelled out a gift amount in the will". And you're right, no one has the right to look at the will if she doesn't want them too. Exactly my point, I've never heard of a grandchild requesting that. No idea why the other one is living in the spare room either, so guess that's all 3 things we're on the exact same page about. :-) Really weird you'd mention old records, my last remaining GMA is really ill, last night I was just dreaming about being in her old house, and her old record player was playing.