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My mum is 87, a covert narcissist with whom I have always had a troubled relationship, but who moved to live in an AL near us and has shifted responsibility for her life to us (without asking if we minded!). My brother, who lives 25 miles away, and I always took it in turns to have her with us for Christmas after our dad died. But she now says she doesn't like going to their house for various reasons, most of which my brother has made efforts to overcome. As my mother is not a sociable person she won't go to the Christmas dinner provided by her AL. So we are left feeling obliged to have her here every year, even though we have three children and four grandchildren in different parts of the country and they like to come to stay too.


You might say it's not much to ask, having an old lady over once a year, and that's true (we do an awful lot else for her as well). But it's the sense of obligation and the perceived unfairness that niggle me: do my husband and I have the moral 'right' to choose what we do, which may involve going away with our own family one year, or do we have to put Mum's wishes first?

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Here's another angle Shuffle;
LO not living with their caregiver but...

Caregiver on call 24/7 for emergencies, many falls, financies, shopping, deliveries, arranging cleaning, cooking, transport, medical appts, social outings & daily aides.

Many parents with disabled adult children or sibs caring for sibs live this way. Have full responsibility for every aspect of their LO life.
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shuffle Nov 2021
where are these LO's staying? I guess there are different facilities which do things differently. Where my mil was they did absolutely everything. They had staff there employed purposely for all this. She had a room and ate in the dining hall, where they provided food, because her monthly payment to them included this and everything needed to take care of her. Extra essentials, soaps, shampoos, personal requests, they also obliged, which she paid extra for. And no this was not an expensive posh place. I don't understand, if they live in a home that provides all this, why are you paying, if you have to do it all?
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I feel that's a rather sweeping over simplification, Shuffle. Caring comes in an immense variety of forms, and just as one example I never noticed that my cousin, whose mother had advanced Parkinson's and was living in residential care, was any less stressed or had her hands any less full than I did. She may not have been woken in the night as often but I doubt she slept much better.

She certainly did not care for her mother one jot less than I did.
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shuffle Nov 2021
I understand the emotional care involved like worrying for them, but being exposed to a negative toxic environment 24/7, does take a great toll on a person. When at home with you, it is a greater responsibility, their total well being is on you, all of it is on you. It might entail dealing with incontinence, cleaning up after them, dealing with their difficult behavior daily. Their meds, the appointments, dealing with their doctor, their emotions over everything, the cooking, the cleaning, the outbursts, their obsessive behavior and then don't forget your own life, etc. Everything that happens is pretty much on these forums. When they are living in an assisted facility the difference is you are not there 24/7 doing it all.
And when you visit them, you are coming from a different place, emotionally and physically, it is more of a social get together. They may ask you for something, yes, or you may feel obligated to bring something.

My husband's mother was in a facility. They took care of everything. There might be an occasional phone call looking for approval for something, but he did not have to do anything. And when we did visit all her needs were taken care of, everything. Therefor our visits were pleasant.
So I'm confused how you can say it's the same.
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Everyone on this forum who says they are caring for a loved one, when the loved one is living outside of their home, are not really caring for a loved one. The people who work at the facility, where your loved one is living, are caring for your loved one.

Lets be honest. There is an astronomical difference with having loved ones at your home 24/7, to having them live outside with outside care 24/7. I don't think I need to explain the difference.
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CarlaCB Nov 2021
There are as many variations of caregiving as there are people doing it. More in fact, because it changes over time even for one individual. Even if the senior lives in a facility, there's sometimes a lot expected or required from family members, such as paying bills, dealing with insurance, shopping for clothes and toiletries, and overseeing the day to day comfort and wellbeing of the person. Not to mention being on call constantly in case the person the person is sick or has a fall, or can't find their dentures or isn't happy with the food. My point is that you don't have to be living with the person to be made responsible for many aspects of their care. This is especially true if you were the main person caring for the senior before they entered the facility. They may continue to demand your constant attention, even if their material needs are being cared for by the facility.

I recall one daughter's story from a few years back. Both parents were in a facility, but demanded that she bring them home cooked meals every day, and stay to help her father eat since he couldn't feed himself. From what I've heard, it's rare that a facility truly provides for all the person's needs, and even rarer for a senior to be content with what the facility provides and not expect family members to be on call to provide whatever the facility does not.
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My mom is now 98 and I wish I could anticipate more Christmas's with her..........she may last longer than me at this rate. I only WISH we could have one more Christmas with her at our home. She is now confined to a nursing home and is pretty much immobile.... just to have her for dinner, or gift opening, to smell the ham cooking or the Christmas scent I have simmering on the stove.....just to have Dad here again to take pictures of every move we made, (please put it back in the box again and take it out....."I missed it the 1st time!") He died at Christmas and we buried him on their 59th wedding anniversary...........just left of a snowbank...)) I treasure the memories.
(LOTZ of them in black and white pictures!!!)
I remember having feelings of being left out when I was younger because they often went to my brothers' home in Ind. We were in WI. Then, as they grew older, they started having "church folks" (without families around) to their home instead of trying to travel in WI (or IN winters). People weren't meant to "be alone" at Christmas so they opened theirs. The ham was fragrant at HER house now. About this time, both of our boys were in MI with families of their own (and trees, and church programs, and neighborhood gatherings.) They came home, eventually, but not on the 25th. We learned to grow up and remember the 25 was just a number.......it was that they came at all that made a difference. They always stopped to see Grandma (2 of them for awhile)..........They were brought up to know the importance of a loving family and what joy old folks (yes, us now) took in the attention, seeing pictures of their homes, and seeing babies and toddlers And, yep, as long as dad could click a picture, he did. He'd even take pictures of the license plate.........one from WI, one from IN and 2 from MI.
I know I resented my mom for making plans and either choosing to go to my brothers or have her church family over. It had always been "our" time.

I'm that mother now.

In all practicality, it isn't realistic to be going to MI for us anymore. Our kids are still in MI and they do come.....eventually. They have kids in church activities, other family near-by and enjoy their OWN tree and traditions. Would I be that mom the letter writer didn't seem to have time for? You bet (!) I rather everything be like it used to be! !!!! My way.
Someday, that writer will see an empty chair, or wish mom was there to catch a special moment. It took my dad's passing to realize how horribly I had been resenting mom for not adhering to MY expectations of how the holidays would go.
Have mom over. If not for days, try hours. If she is in assisted living, find some time in the day to share a meal with her. It's a nominal fee and you BOTH will feel the love.(unless the narcissim was hereditary and you feel she imposed on YOU!) She'll love it and someday you'll be glad she got a chance to enjoy what you seemingly are too selfish to share. Look back and see HER in your Christmas photos!
Can you imagine what she would be feeling if she felt she was too much an imposition for you to be "obligated" to include her? My grandchildren LOVE seeing the Great Gram's and hearing the old stories (we have one less to share with them this year.) Can you even imagine, even a self-centered mother, not wanting to make the holidays special for you? What did she deprive you of that you would be this mean-spirited? Getting even because she didn't ask YOUR permission to be near family?
I hope you get a mirror for Christmas.......take a REAL good look and wonder if that person could actually be too busy to include mom. You have an obligation to teach and show YOUR children what you felt YOU missed out on.
I am older and wiser...... no-longer mad at mom for the "inconvenience" I perceived. Hopefully, you can grow up too, before you look back and there is someone missing from the pictures from your holiday memories!
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helenb63 Nov 2021
We will almost certainly have Mum with us and are not too busy for her and don't resent her being there. Saying we don't have time for her is just ridiculous, as we spend hours every week with her and run her life for her. We are not being selfish, just trying to achieve balance and fairness, but I accept that many people (fortunately) can't understand what it's like to have a relationship like ours. How I'll feel when she is gone is unknown, but not the question at hand. I don't think you can apply what happened to one family to anyone else's, and harsh judgements don't help on a supposed support forum.
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Since your mother says she hates Christmas I see no reason to feel you have to include her. Have you and your brother visit the weekend before. Bring gifts and treats. Take her out to eat if you can handle that. There! You have celebrated the holiday with her.
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Helen, in my book, one of the marks of being an adult is being able to say "no" to one's parents with big drama on your own part.

"That doesn't fit in with our plans this year".

"We've decided to do Christmas early this year and make it quieter so you don't get frazzled like you did last year".

"I'm having some health issues and my doctor has told me to tine the holidays down this year".

If the parent creates drama, tries to manipulate or induce guilt, keep quiet, don't react, respond with an "hmmmm".

Call up your brother and tell him that you cannot and will not invite your mom this year due to your health and her unhappiness at your home in the past.

It sounds like your mom carries her unhappiness around with her wherever she goes. Your husband needs to realize this.

No one is responsible for the happiness of another.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thanks, Barb. Might just try that!
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In my area there is talk of shutting things down, no elective surgeries, etc again. Maybe it will happen where you are too. Problem solved.
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I see my mom the weekend before or after the holiday for similar reasons. It's just too much to do everything on the same day.

It's her choice if she wants to skip your brother's year and you don't have to fill in the gap. She may decide that it's better to go to your brother's house than be alone. It Is Her Choice to be alone if it is his turn.

You are not responsible if she chooses to be alone, even if she tries to guilt you into it. You do not have to tie yourself into knots trying to please someone who won't treat you well.
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This is your life and your traditions to make.
Go away with your family and simply say you are unavailable.
Sounds like you have had years with her there, so there is no law it has to be every year.
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Just a suggestion:
Most AL facilities work hard at having an exceptionally nice Christmas dinner and may welcome families who make reservations. Could you work this into your schedule? Bring her some gifts or special treats, Then celebrate at another time with whomever and however you wish. If you attend dinner at the facility, she won't be able to call the shots, claim you abandoned her or run the show. And it won't be a long drawn-out affair since care givers there must get on with their usual duties.

You don't need to offer her an elaborate "excuse"...anything that seems appropriate .Could be just have "some other plans for the day" or claim you want a break from all the cooking etc. "We thought this might be a nice change!" could be enough...Keep it brief, simple, than change the subject.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
I think the AL usually do welcome family members, but of course this year may be different because of rising COVID cases. We are also trying to fit in with the varying plans of three children and four grandchildren, whom of course we want to see and we want Mum to see, but it's a difficult juggling act!

Thanks for all the practical suggestions - clearly not my strong suit.
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Helen, has Brother invited Mother properly for this year yet? 🤞
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helenb63 Oct 2021
No, he says it's up to her, which means she will choose us!
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My relationship with my parents was a close one. Even if my brothers had lived in the same town, I would have probably been the one depended on, which was OK. I never complained but unknowingly set boundries. I worked and had a family so my parents understood I would do when I could. Mom was happy as long as it got done.

But my GF had a mother who she never understood why she treated her like she did. No physical abuse but it was very obvious that younger sister was favored. It was so bad when Summer came, her Mom shipped her off to relatives 7 hrs away till school started. She was one miserable lady.

Thank God that you have never been around a narcissistic person. Its all about them. They really don't know how to love and have very little empathy. They bring everyone down.

I had a friend's boys tell her that she was not invited to Christmas dinner because they didn't want the Drama. She just couldn't go and enjoy the time with her son, she had to make her comments to others that she rarely sees her sons so it was nice finally being invited and so on and so on. She never saw where she was wrong.

Yes, this woman is old and won't be around much longer, but SHE has made her bed. People don't want to be around negative people. Yes, its harsh. Me, I am 72 and I really don't want my remaining Holidays ruined by a negative person.
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if you don’t want her over, just say no. It sounds like such a gathering would be less than enjoyable all around.

Certainly you recognize that your post is extremely offensive to many of the participants in this forum who have lost a parent and are overcome with grief when faced with nostalgic thoughts of the holidays.

I’m glad, though, that you are asking in this anonymous place rather than asking people that know you.

Sounds like the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
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LPRhelp Oct 2021
Walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. Each person has a different journey with their parents and family. Don’t judge.
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Helen, can we just clarify the timeline here?

Your father died x years ago.
Your mother continued to live alone for [time], then unilaterally decided to move nearer to you.
For x years, you and brother alternated Christmases.
X years ago, mother stopped going to brother for whatever reason (probably dispute related, to do with sprout preparation or pigs-in-blankets or Queen's Christmas message or when to open presents - those are the big issues).
So how many Christmases on the trot have you done now?

It is definitely his turn, I'm just wondering how big a precedent you have to overcome.

Christmas lunch at the ALF is for people who don't have any family within travelling distance, or not that can tolerate them anyway. It isn't reasonable to expect your mother to include herself voluntarily in that category. "My presence is a nuisance to my children, this is only natural and I must accept it" is a bit too big a philosophical ask, really.
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JoAnn29 Oct 2021
My Moms AL was local people. The Holiday Dinners were for families to join in. I chose not to attend because too many people. My Mom always had Holiday dinners with us since I lived 5 min away.
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NO. She is safe where she is and Christmas lunch is provided. You have children and Grandchildren it would be perfectly reasonable that you went to see them on Christmas day (it may suit you better for them to come to you, but perhaps they would like you to go there, in which case you would not be available to have her to yours.) Talk to your brother and your children and decide what you would like between you. I expect you see far more of your mother than you do your children, so just for one day a year the wishes of other people come first. There is a difference between obligation and fairness, and satisfaction of a self centralist person you do your best for throughout the year. Take a holiday and relax for a few days.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thank you for understanding!
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Helenb63,
I give you permission to enjoy your Christmas without your mother.
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Edit: You *may* want to have her over.
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I think it would go better if you visited her for only so many hours than if you had her over.
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I also have a covert narcissist for a mom and mine is 93 yrs old. I am an only child. I will not be having her over for Christmas dinner. I prefer to spend my Christmas with people who I truly love and people who truly love me. Unfortunately, that is not my CNM. I truly hope you find peace and happiness with whatever decision you make. I truly feel for you. 💕
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If you don't want her over, don't! Maybe drop off some leftovers later but enjoy your family at your home.
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OMG. If she only wants to go to your house, and you don't want to do it, Don't Do It! She is trying to manipulate and control you and has no care in the world about your happiness or quality of life. You do what you want to do, and if she gets "stuck" spending her holiday at the ALF, then she will have to deal with that. Parents with declining cognitive function still seem to be expert emotional manipulators! Your quality of life is Just As important as hers!!
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helenb63: Imho, quite honestly, you have want to have her over for a limited amount of hours. Ergo, you would not feel immense guilt over not doing so, if you were to chose that route. However, you do not have any moral obligation.
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Let’s go back to Helen’s original question because it’s pertinent to many people on this forum.

”But it’s the sense of obligation and the perceived unfairness that niggle me: do my husband and I have a moral ‘right’ to choose what we do... or do we have to put mum’s wishes first.”

Christmas is two months away and the poor woman is already worried about needing a break from her mother, for a single holiday, with other provisions available.

She’s suffering with the unfairness of bearing the burden unilaterally.

She’s not asking for tips on how to reduce the stress of pandering to her narcissistic mother’s wishes. Those well-intended suggestions compound the sense of obligation.

She’s considered the realities of having her mother for Christmas and decided that’s not best for her and her husband this year.

She’s asking members of this caregiver group for approval, or permission, or a maybe a simple lack of condemnation, to prioritize her and her husband’s needs.

Yes. It’s ok to take a break for Christmas.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thank you!
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You mother cannot shift any responsibility 'for her life,' without your consent and willingness to do so (unless you are the legal POA and have these responsibilities). It sounds to me that you and perhaps your husband need to decide what you want to do and set boundaries, explaining clearly to your mother what you will and will not do.
* While I understand the sense of obligation, these are internal feelings / behaviors likely established decades ago.
* there comes a time - like now - when you take your personal power back and do what you want to do, realizing that the feelings of obligation may lurk around for a while as this is new behavior.
- If you have difficulty setting limits, enlist the support of your family, a social worker, or a therapist.
- This care isn't all on you unless you decide it is. This doesn't mean making these decisions are easy. They are not. However, you need to evaluate the quality of your life, your life-style, your relationship with your spouse and the rest of your family - and figure out what you want.
* I would presume that others in your family could help YOU out - ? Perhaps talk to them. This is NOT about your mother making decisions and 'ruling the roost' as she likely did all your life (being a narscisst as you say) It is about you taking your personal power back and doing what is right for you, with the support and help of your family.
* Be aware that you use phrases such as "do we have to . . . " you need to be aware every moment you say this or words / phrases that give your mother the power to decide what YOU do. NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO. And tell yourself that when you reframe your thoughts . . . which translate into behavior.
- Learn to reframe these thoughts. Take back your inner power. You deserve a quality (of) life, TOO. Right?
*****
Yes, that 'obligation' darkness will lurk over you like a thundering storm about to drench you; be ready for it and observe "Oh, I feel . . . without the judgment).
- If you can do just this - it'll be huge. When you remove the judgment, you can make healthy decisions for yourself, and your mother.
*****
From my point of view, you and your husband have EVERY right to choose what the two of you do; you need to feel this in your gut and heart. Otherwise, Mommy Dearest will have her way with you. Here's a hug. Gena
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Much appreciated and we do try to get a balance, but it's hard after nearly 60 years of mind training!
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J Bryan, you may be one of the lucky ones. With my Mom, this question would have never been asked. Her kids were happy when she was around. Even my curmudgeon father. But not everyone have parents like this. There are people that are so negative and controlling, they ruin get togethers. Its all about them. They have no idea how to enjoy themselves and just bring everything down.

This mother has someplace to go for the Holiday her sons. Its his turn. Helen had her last year. Mom has no choice, it her son's turn.
"Mom, he would be so hurt if you didn't come" 😊
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I feel sorry for your mother and I don't even know her. Whatever you feel you could live with then you should do. Have a Merry Christmas whatever you decide.
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Hopeforhelp22 Oct 2021
To Isabelsdaughter - since you "feel sorry" for her mother, as you say, then perhaps YOU should invite her to your home for Christmas holiday! :-)

And you are right - you stated that "you don't even know her mother"...I think I can guarantee that if you did know what a covert narcissist mother is really like, then you would feel differently.
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Personally, I look at it this way and not all will agree. She is a narcissist and you did not have a good relationship. She has lived her life and that is her problem. You are living your life now with your offspring as you should be doing. I would discuss with your brother (l) DOES ANYONE WANT HER TO COME? If not, let her stay at assisted living so the others have peace and harmony. (2) Decide who, if either of you, wants her to come but beforehand lay down very strict boundaries what will and what will not be tolerated - and be ready to enforce those rules. I personally would NOT have her if it disrupted my life and family - they come first.
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Riley2166 Oct 2021
And whoever decides to have it, that is where the dinner will be whether she likes it or not. Tough.
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I cannot believe some of the answers you are receiving here. A simple 'no' from some of those commenting below, would have been suffice. 

You could possibly have answered your question yourself. 

I cannot believe some of the answers you are receiving here. A simple 'no' from some of those commenting below would have been suffice. 

You could possibly have answered your question yourself or you could take the worst possible advice that's been on here in quite awhile.  No wonder people are in the shape they're in today .
And I don't even want to hear what you 'old' people think. I'm 30 years old & I not only care for mum, but grandparents AND work at a Nursing Home.

So, go ahead & start smoothing out your own wrinkles in the mirror. When you do - I guarantee you'll see the reflection of your narcissistic children running past you to do something that's a lot more fun😊
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shuffle Oct 2021
I hope to never need help.
But if I do, I hope to be kind and grateful for the help.

I do not have children.
But I like to think that if I had, I would have been a kind, caring, loving, nurturing, thoughtful, patient, protective, understanding, good role model in their life. I hope they would have felt safe in their home with me.

We were not all that lucky to have had even 1 person like that growing up in our life. So please before you judge, come back when you have more experience, and are more aware of yourself. You will take stock of how you were raised, and who is to blame for the good or the bad and based on that you will understand more.

You need to be aware that many parents were not good to their children. Many parents are guilty of every kind of abuse imaginable and even some you would never imagine. The people complaining about their parents on this forum most likely did not have caring nurturing parents. If you are lucky enough to have good parents that is great, You are luckier than most.
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I hope you’ll take a trip with other family. The chances for fun times don’t always come back. And always know the beauty of being an adult is getting to choose what you will and won’t do, no need for explanations or guilt
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Tunfet Oct 2021
This is a great idea. Your husband, children and grandchildren deserve your love and attention too. And you deserve to enjoy your time with them.
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I would not feel guilty sending her to brothers. Just because she doesn’t want does not matter. You can go visit your grands they are only small for such a short time. Enjoy them while you can.
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