Can a family have someone sign papers for them when the person signing these papers have dementia and didn't no what they where signing? He takes pills for his dementia. Can we sue her shes not making carpayments.
Did your daughter know that your husband had been diagnosed with dementia? With whom does he live? '
Did he co-sign both the purchase agreement and the loan? Is his name on the title, jointly with your daughter's?
Assuming that she knew and got him to co-sign for her, you may have an out if he's considered a vulnerable adult under and has the benefit of some statutory protection in your state. This is a question for an attorney.
In the meantime, contact the lender, advise of the conditions and make them aware that your husband didn't have the necessary capacity to understand what he was signing. Mention that you're investigating your options legally, but that since your daughter has defaulted on payments you also want to address the issue of selling the car before repossession is instituted.
I don't know what to advise you though if title to the car is held jointly, assuming your daughter won't sign off on any sale.
You could call the lender as well, but start the document trail, and document all calls and contacts. The lender may just agree to some kind of plan to bring the payments current, rather than repossess the car. But it is time to get the car away from your daughter.
I suppose if you wanted to you could sue her in a small claims court, or a district court, but if she's not making payments, what assets does she have on which you could get a judgment and execute it?
You do need to act quickly though, b/c the lender is likely going to consider repossession and then you've lost the car. Perhaps you might have your attorney draft an agreement by which you bring the payments current and she relinquishes her rights to the car, then you can sell it before it's repossessed.
First, the greater concern is your husband's finances. If his dementia is disabling enough that he's making poor decisions about his money, someone in the family should sit with an elder law attorney and talk about how to protect him from himself.
Now, as for the opportunistic daughter...ask yourself if you want to keep this issue in the family or not before you 'drop a dime' on her with APS. That will trigger a process that you may regret later.
Also, ask yourself if she may have seen this situation another way – does dad have a lifelong pattern of 'spoiling' her? This is something that's often seen once an indulgent dad gets dementia. The adult kid chugs along, taking and taking from dad as she always has. The difference is that now, the rest of the family will step in the way in the name of protecting dad from the child. I agree that what she's doing is selfish and greedy, but is it new behavior or is dad's dementia the only thing that's new?
Finally, if she's not making payments, isn't this a problem that will fix itself? Dad's credit will take a hit if the car is repossessed, but an elderly man doesn't have the same need for his good credit score as a younger man. Of course, you should sit down with your daughter, as others have said, and spell out your view of things (unemotionally, if you can manage that): • Dad has dementia and will no longer be in charge of financial decisions. • If she needs financial help from mom and dad, she must come to you. • You will not be making car payments for her and, if dad's name is on the car, you will have the car sold if she does not get up to date on the payments.
If your relationship with your daughter is such that you can't have a conversation like that, I'd still threaten a call to APS and give her a shot before I'd actually call them.
This is a large problem that needs your immediate attention. Get started ASAP As other have stated this is a case of elder abuse and you need help from others to deal with the many aspects of this event. 1. Find a lawyer that deals with bad debt, bankruptcy, etc. Get a free hour with him/her. Tell your story. But first, find out how many loan payments your daughter has missed. Also does your father have any paper showing that he cosigned the loan. 2. Start a diary of emails, telephone conversations. etc. You need to show that you have taken action and continuing to do so. 3. Write letters to the three major credit bureaus (can be done online-I think) about this event. Your daughter's nonpayments are becoming part of your father's credit file and dragging down his score. 4. Have a "come to Jesus" moment with your daughter. Call her and give a deadline. Also send her a certified letter that she has to sign for. The post office will help figure out what type of service you need in order to get a signature. If she refuses to accept the letter, then keep that info in your diary or record-see #2. 5. If the car is located near you, then see if you can get someone to tow it to a locked facility. If you are a member of AAA or your car insurance has towing as part of its policy, then call AAA and tell them to tow the car. You need to be there when the tow truck arrives. The towing guys only want to know if you are a member, not whether you own the car. 5. As other have suggested, find an eldercare attorney if there is one near where you live. If not, find out how to get a Power of Durable Attorney, so you can act on behalf your father. But you will need a definite diagnosis from a physician. You might think that this is a ton of work. But you have stumbled into a hornet's nest. You need to protect your father by taking action. It must be heartbreaking in so many ways. Good luck and let us know the outcome.
"A Power of Attorney does not give the holder of the POA the ability to make decisions for anyone in any capacity. "
My attorney who drafted our estate plans (and who's practiced successfully for years) will be interested in learning that someone who apparently has no legal training knows more than she does.
I have no idea on what you base your opinion, but you're wrong.
And my father's DPOA specifically grants his proxy the authority to enter into and execute necessary documentation for transactions, and make decisions necessary therefor, in lieu of, and in his place.
SeniorAdvisor is right. Having POA simply allows you to act on your father's behalf. It certainly does not take away his right to make his own decisions, including taking away your POA if he chooses to. Designating a POA doesn't mean you've declared yourself incompetent. Guardianship is a very involved process (as it should be).
I feel very bad for you, both for the theft and for the sad state of your relationship with your daughter. I hope you can at least get a remedy for the financial part of this!
It seems to me she needs to refinance immediately to remove him from the financial obligation. Should you require Medicaid at any time, they will allow one car only, and the one she has with him will need to be sold immediately. Have her try One Main Financial - they will take the car as collateral and probably charge her 25% interest rate, but it would only be her on the debt and the title. Good Luck. You have many legal recourses that will help, however, he needs to be off the loan. Removing from the title does not remove his obligation on the loan.
I agree with what IsntEasy wrote. This is a problem that can fix itself. You might want to get a little legal help so it will fix itself more quickly. The first big question is if the father (your husband?) was legally competent to sign a contract. If he wasn't, then the contract isn't valid. You have to be of sound mind to enter into a contract. Then it becomes daughter's problem. I wouldn't worry about a hit to the credit score. This is important when young, not so much when older.
If he had not been deemed incompetent, then the contract will be legal and subject to the normal non-payment processes. The problem you had made me think that it is important for us to have doctors write letters that someone is incompetent when it is true. Doctors don't like to do that, but the letters would be worth their weight in gold in a situation like this.
Let's get one thing straight. A Power of Attorney does not give the holder of the POA the ability to make decisions for anyone in any capacity. Having one proves NOTHING. It only gives you the power to sign things on their behalf. I have seen this hundreds of times. If the man has been diagnosed with dementia it still is a very tough case to prove. The man will never say he was tricked by his daughter in a court of law. I have never seen this happen. He does understand that their are consequences and he will protect his daughter instinctively. The only legal recourse is to have him declared incompetent. This is a complicated process. It involves two attorneys. One for the patient and one for the person seeking guardianship. It also requires two doctors to examine him and both declare him incompetent. It's a long complicated process. If you are successful you may or may not succeed in revoking his signature as co-signer as it would have been signed before he was declared incompetent. Your best bet is to pursue a resolution with the finance company directly. with enough perseverance and constant calls you may get to a person with some power who will be sympathetic and propose some sort of resolution.
Did your daughter know that your husband had been diagnosed with dementia? With whom does he live? '
Did he co-sign both the purchase agreement and the loan? Is his name on the title, jointly with your daughter's?
Assuming that she knew and got him to co-sign for her, you may have an out if he's considered a vulnerable adult under and has the benefit of some statutory protection in your state. This is a question for an attorney.
In the meantime, contact the lender, advise of the conditions and make them aware that your husband didn't have the necessary capacity to understand what he was signing. Mention that you're investigating your options legally, but that since your daughter has defaulted on payments you also want to address the issue of selling the car before repossession is instituted.
I don't know what to advise you though if title to the car is held jointly, assuming your daughter won't sign off on any sale.
You could call the lender as well, but start the document trail, and document all calls and contacts. The lender may just agree to some kind of plan to bring the payments current, rather than repossess the car. But it is time to get the car away from your daughter.
I suppose if you wanted to you could sue her in a small claims court, or a district court, but if she's not making payments, what assets does she have on which you could get a judgment and execute it?
You do need to act quickly though, b/c the lender is likely going to consider repossession and then you've lost the car. Perhaps you might have your attorney draft an agreement by which you bring the payments current and she relinquishes her rights to the car, then you can sell it before it's repossessed.
Now, as for the opportunistic daughter...ask yourself if you want to keep this issue in the family or not before you 'drop a dime' on her with APS. That will trigger a process that you may regret later.
Also, ask yourself if she may have seen this situation another way – does dad have a lifelong pattern of 'spoiling' her? This is something that's often seen once an indulgent dad gets dementia. The adult kid chugs along, taking and taking from dad as she always has. The difference is that now, the rest of the family will step in the way in the name of protecting dad from the child. I agree that what she's doing is selfish and greedy, but is it new behavior or is dad's dementia the only thing that's new?
Finally, if she's not making payments, isn't this a problem that will fix itself? Dad's credit will take a hit if the car is repossessed, but an elderly man doesn't have the same need for his good credit score as a younger man. Of course, you should sit down with your daughter, as others have said, and spell out your view of things (unemotionally, if you can manage that):
• Dad has dementia and will no longer be in charge of financial decisions.
• If she needs financial help from mom and dad, she must come to you.
• You will not be making car payments for her and, if dad's name is on the car, you will have the car sold if she does not get up to date on the payments.
If your relationship with your daughter is such that you can't have a conversation like that, I'd still threaten a call to APS and give her a shot before I'd actually call them.
As other have stated this is a case of elder abuse and you need help from others to deal with the many aspects of this event.
1. Find a lawyer that deals with bad debt, bankruptcy, etc. Get a free hour with him/her. Tell your story. But first, find out how many loan payments your daughter has missed. Also does your father have any paper showing that he cosigned the loan.
2. Start a diary of emails, telephone conversations. etc. You need to show that you have taken action and continuing to do so.
3. Write letters to the three major credit bureaus (can be done online-I think) about this event. Your daughter's nonpayments are becoming part of your father's credit file and dragging down his score.
4. Have a "come to Jesus" moment with your daughter. Call her and give a deadline. Also send her a certified letter that she has to sign for. The post office will help figure out what type of service you need in order to get a signature. If she refuses to accept the letter, then keep that info in your diary or record-see #2.
5. If the car is located near you, then see if you can get someone to tow it to a locked facility. If you are a member of AAA or your car insurance has towing as part of its policy, then call AAA and tell them to tow the car. You need to be there when the tow truck arrives. The towing guys only want to know if you are a member, not whether you own the car.
5. As other have suggested, find an eldercare attorney if there is one near where you live. If not, find out how to get a Power of Durable Attorney, so you can act on behalf your father. But you will need a definite diagnosis from a physician.
You might think that this is a ton of work. But you have stumbled into a hornet's nest. You need to protect your father by taking action. It must be heartbreaking in so many ways. Good luck and let us know the outcome.
My attorney who drafted our estate plans (and who's practiced successfully for years) will be interested in learning that someone who apparently has no legal training knows more than she does.
I have no idea on what you base your opinion, but you're wrong.
And my father's DPOA specifically grants his proxy the authority to enter into and execute necessary documentation for transactions, and make decisions necessary therefor, in lieu of, and in his place.
Perhaps you're only familiar with springing POAs?
Designating a POA doesn't mean you've declared yourself incompetent. Guardianship is a very involved process (as it should be).
Is she addicted to something?
I feel very bad for you, both for the theft and for the sad state of your relationship with your daughter. I hope you can at least get a remedy for the financial part of this!
If he had not been deemed incompetent, then the contract will be legal and subject to the normal non-payment processes. The problem you had made me think that it is important for us to have doctors write letters that someone is incompetent when it is true. Doctors don't like to do that, but the letters would be worth their weight in gold in a situation like this.
I have seen this hundreds of times. If the man has been diagnosed with dementia it still is a very tough case to prove. The man will never say he was tricked by his daughter in a court of law. I have never seen this happen. He does understand that their are consequences and he will protect his daughter instinctively.
The only legal recourse is to have him declared incompetent. This is a complicated process. It involves two attorneys. One for the patient and one for the person seeking guardianship. It also requires two doctors to examine him and both declare him incompetent. It's a long complicated process. If you are successful you may or may not succeed in revoking his signature as co-signer as it would have been signed before he was declared incompetent.
Your best bet is to pursue a resolution with the finance company directly. with enough perseverance and constant calls you may get to a person with some power who will be sympathetic and propose some sort of resolution.
See All Answers